Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Zed

Multiplayer, speedrunning and skill

Recommended Posts

Hi there.

As much as I love Doom, I've never considered seriously getting into speed-running or deathmatch, and one of the reasons is that I'm afraid I'm not skilled enough. And this made me wonder. I know there isn't really a comparison, but I wanted to know, what are the different skills needed to be a competent deathmatch player, as opposed to being a decent speedrunner? Is it just a combination of practice, good reflexes and some knowledge of the game? How many deathmatch players would feel comfortable doing a speedrun? What about speedrunners getting into a 1-on-1 duel? Is it too different? I know I've seen some people who are fairly good at both (kuchitsu a.k.a. Memfis comes to mind), but there aren't as many as I expected.

Discuss.

P.S.: Please don't turn this into a "deathmatch vs speedrun" because that's not the point. I just want to know what to expect when / if getting into any of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Zed said:

what are the different skills needed to be a competent deathmatch player, as opposed to being a decent speedrunner?

Deathmatch player: Quick reflexes, predicting the opponent's behavior.
Speedrunner: Endurance and patience.
Both: Knowledge of the game mechanics and of the particular maps they play, precision at movement.

Share this post


Link to post

Precise and fast movement is critical in duels, so speedrunners don't suffer from a lack of basic skills - they move straight to learning tactics and get good pretty fast. It works even better the other way, good duelists make natural speedrunners. Well, if they posess the endurance to grind, grind and grind.

There's a much bigger rift between DM and maxing though, those particular skills don't translate very well. Max runs don't require cutthroat rushing unless it's a crazy minute-long affair. It actually pays off to wait a moment and make sure your aim is correct, because you're moving to the best position and targeting nearly stationary monsters. On the other hand there's no time for that in DM where it's part good aim, part predicting your opponent's movement and all twitch reflex.

The most interesting and perhaps most subtle difference is in the fabled and honourable "BFG skills". There are many DM players who can't two-shot a cyb to save their butt and a good maxer would laugh at their tracer waste when herding a monster horde, but you almost never hit the opponent with the projectile and it can only take just one tracer to do the job in a duel, so it's all about timing your position/angle between firing the shot and landing the projectile and maybe muting the sound as well. It can get really complex and beautiful.

Share this post


Link to post
Zed said:

I've never considered seriously getting into speed-running or deathmatch, and one of the reasons is that I'm afraid I'm not skilled enough.

Don't let that stop you from deathmatching - I've seen people get exponentially better in a matter of weeks because they just spent a few hours a week playing FFA, Duel and CTF.

Share this post


Link to post
scifista42 said:

Deathmatch player: Quick reflexes, predicting the opponent's behavior.

  • Run for the BFG
  • Press the fire button while facing an open, populated area of the map.
  • ????
  • PROFIT!


FTFY <3

On a more serious note, "real" DM (not BFG/rocket/plasma spamming or camping) encounters situations that normally neither maxers nor speedrunners need to face, e.g. you don't need to circlestrafe monsters as fast and as close as you do a DM opponent when both of you have the SSG, nor taking into account his and your reload delays. You don't have to face opponents that can strafe out of the way. Nor do you need to weave between plasma or rocket barrages, or lead your rockets to hit a fast-moving target.

Obviously, if you're a good speedrunner or "maxer" (or a "good player" in general) chances are that you'll be good enough at the controls that you'll eventually be able to adapt, but without first-hand experience, your first DM might appear brutal, unfair, and short, until you start getting the hang of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Zed said:

Hi there.

As much as I love Doom, I've never considered seriously getting into speed-running or deathmatch, and one of the reasons is that I'm afraid I'm not skilled enough.


Like Doomkid says, don't worry about being skilled enough. I started dabbling in speedrunning this year and it has really broadened my appreciation of maps in general -- it has been a nice foil to my earlier feeling that gameplay-focused maps should optimize for pure challenge or amusement during casual play. I'm not that good at it yet, but I've still beaten some humble records and improved my control of the player a lot, so I feel like I've accomplished something. By running a map a lot, you will gain the skills needed to get a better time, even if you don't have them at the beginning.

There seems to be a "record time or bust" mentality in speedrunning that probably dissuades LOTS of people from even dabbling in it, unfortunately. Even as I say this, I didn't submit any demos until I got a record, thinking they wouldn't have been good enough otherwise. Something should probably be done to counter that.

Share this post


Link to post
rdwpa said:

Something should probably be done to counter that.

A dedicated category/league for newbie-only speedrunners?

Share this post


Link to post

Deathmatch: Quick reflexes and sneaking shots in corners

Coop: Pretty much how I normally play DOOM in Single-Player

Speedrunning: I really don't do that stuff much, but if it's a short map, then maybe so.

Share this post


Link to post

If you're into speedrunning, or just want to improve your run generally, one thing I've found is that instead of running directly across the map, it pays a little to try 'diagonal running' instead.

I'm not sure how to describe it but if you watch most Competn-records speedruns, you'll see that speedrunners will tend to run at an angle if they can, especially if they have a long way to travel.

Take E2M4 for instance. This is a fun level to speedrun, because it looks complicated, although it's really quite direct. After getting the invulnerability and preferably a shotgun in the same room, you then have to reach quite a distance before the second which is further away in a locked room. It's not necessary, but if you run as if you're almost strafing diagonally in the large green marble hall, you'll get a few extra seconds by the time you reach the room with locked doors.

'Bumping away' from doors when you open them, and then running towards them is again an easy one to do but will help you keep momentum.

Also, and this is something I'm working on by watching Rybacksda's videos, you can save real time by aggressively side-strafing videos. It's kind of an artform though on NM.

Share this post


Link to post
scifista42 said:

A dedicated category/league for newbie-only speedrunners?


What I had in mind was some way of encouraging runs without much of a competition aspect, sort of like the DWMegawadClub but for casual runs.

Or if there is a competition, emphasis should be on beating certain predefined par times instead of having the absolute best time, although a small number of bonus points can be given for top times.

Share this post


Link to post

I think sites like PDANG, Mirra and maybe some others were like that and it was considered normal to submit non-record demos. Where are they now?

Share this post


Link to post
Doomkid said:

Don't let that stop you from deathmatching - I've seen people get exponentially better in a matter of weeks because they just spent a few hours a week playing FFA, Duel and CTF.

Yeah, I just got back into online Doom (after about a year - I also only had about a month's experience before that year-long gap, during which I managed to accidentally stumble upon your DoomKid's Deathmatch server. That made me realize how much fun it is, and I've been hooked since) - and now I can actually win a few matches on Duel40 (I found an overpopulated Duel40 server today, the whole server was egging us on).

Share this post


Link to post
kuchitsu said:

I think sites like PDANG, Mirra and maybe some others were like that and it was considered normal to submit non-record demos. Where are they now?

Uh. You can submit non-record demos to Doomworld's speedrunning section and they will be archived at DSDA. How do you not know this after all those years?

Share this post


Link to post

I mean on PDANG there was like a point system for that I think. So anyone could submit a demo and get points just like these cool Compet-N guys. Or not? But basically what I'm saying is it was very friendly towards such demos or something. While nowadays when you post a non-record demo there is a high change that some smartass will point that out. :\

Share this post


Link to post

I've been wanting to make a MP strategies thread; good topic :) (though of course this is not specifically about MP strategies). As for speedrunning, I suck at that because I never practice it, but I am familiar with most of the tricks. I suck at 2-shorting a cyber, but can get it at least 1% of the time. *pats self on back* I have always loved UV-maxing.

DM and duels require very different strategies and playing personalities. Personally, I do better in an FFA DM then in a duel because I run around like a chicken with my head cut off, often SR-50'ing in a loop around the level. This, I think, is what detroys me in duels, as many great duel players I've had the privilege to be fragged by seem to spend more focus on their opponent's movement around the level than their own (when not in combat). In other words, I run around really fast, I have a 50/50 shot to sneak up on them if they do not turn around. But something you do more of when moving less is turn around and check your back. For this reason, I also do much better against the typical DM'er that runs around like I do, just not as fast, because when you move really fast you assume it's less likely someone will appear behind you. Back to the example, I have a 50/50 (for the sake of this discussion) shot to sneak up on an opponent. But as I'm running around, naturally I'll pass areas where I can be seen from across the level. An observant, slower player will see me and know where I will be coming from, as they can see my position, speed, and vector. This is one thing that makes duels interesting to me: it takes me out of my comfort zone.

In a straight-up 3-8 player DM, things change for my playstyle. Things get much easier, as it is difficult to sneak up on me and that's also something I excell at. I often manage to find people immediately before, during, or immediately after an encounter with another player, or just running around not checking their backs (... and guess where I am). I also count health, meaning that if I hit you with most of an SSG blast and you don't die (but I do), guess who my first target is when I come back. It can be relatively easy to fudge a 3 player DM match where all players are relatively equal by managing who gets the kill on you and who you cannot let achieve a kill.

But the main thing I've learned about Doom DM, much like speedrunning, there are no "gentlemen's rules." People don't like respawn protection and won't hesitate to kill you if you spawn in front of them, even if it's just happened 3 times in a row. They also won't hesitate to watch the big weapon spawns more closely to prevent you from getting that one SSG in the map (some players even flat-out camp). This is one reason why it's important to understand the concept and execution of kiting an opponent around a map if they are in the process of "controlling the map." Especially if you are playing on a map which does not give all spawns something powerful like an SSG.

Much like anything, speed and power will only get you so far against superior strategy. Just be ruthless and you'll do fine ;D

My first DM against somebody who DM's regularly was I think against DoomKid and it was absolutely brutal. So were more than a few after that. Part of it is getting used to the quick pace of Doom as it applies to a DM, but part of it also is the strange feeling of shooting from where you just were to where your target just was. An example, when sneaking up behind a fast-moving opponent, you are both moving next to top speed. So you'll only catch up slowly by cutting corners or SR-50'ing where available. When you get within range with the SSG, don't turn and fire; keep running and wait for that corner. When he turns it and passes your cone of attack, shoot a millisecond after (or basically wait til you see him pass then fire immediately; to account for reaction times). Though it appears a hitscan should miss, hitting the wall where he just was, it will actually hit because your and his positions are really a split second behind what you are seeing. Once you get used to that, DM becomes much easier and you'll find yourself dying much less. Also, if his SSG is firing before yours, break LoS and get the edge back.

The most important thing, though, is to remember that "you must learn to lose to learn to win." So expect to die often and be okay with it; your time will come :)

Every doomer should DM. What are y'all waiting on? There are people of all ages and skill levels, so find a buddy or ten and have some fun!

Share this post


Link to post

Lots of scrubs can win at DM; if you really want to gauge your skill, start dueling 1v1 where everything becomes much more heightened in importance. Inb4 "Decay you're bad, the hell do you know"

DM/LMS with multiple people, it's easy to win. Steal other people's kills, spam that BFG, launch those rockets. Granted, winning does take some skill, but duel is where it really gets down. I regularly play DM/LMS with good players (Rustking, Strangle, CombinebobNT, etc), sometimes I win, usually come close, but these guys all stomp me in duels regardless of the map or style (os/ns). DM doesn't require a brain, brainplay and carefully landing the important shots, not just shooting constantly, will win you duels.

Also, don't discount CTF. Being able to move faster and knowing tricks, landing those crucial shots is super important. Pub play can be fun, but private play is where skill and team work really come out.

I highly recommend giving multiple gamemodes a shot (FNF is a good place to start), just avoid the toxic players like Killstrike (aka Ghostkiller aka a thousand other names), capo, AVC (aka woodpecker/josharvery), dr.noob, and everything will be a-okay.

What Doomkid said here is also right, you should try and find the places to get regular multiplayer in. IRC is a good place to start, I also recommend TS3 for various groups. Even if they are clan run, like the Cube TS, they usually encourage others to hang around, do nothing play games make maps, etc.

Share this post


Link to post

I feel like I would do very poorly in actual competitive gamemode.

But that's just based on what I would say about how skilled I think I am. I don't believe my speedrunning skill would transfer very well or elegantly to multiplayer. But then again, I've never played any kind of competitive Doom, so who knows.

Share this post


Link to post

I personally believe that competitive game modes are built upon three fundamental foundations: Prediction, Strategy, and Precision.
Work on harnessing your skills in these areas and I guarantee you will become a better all-round player.

Share this post


Link to post
Rayzik said:

I feel like I would do very poorly in actual competitive gamemode.

But that's just based on what I would say about how skilled I think I am. I don't believe my speedrunning skill would transfer very well or elegantly to multiplayer. But then again, I've never played any kind of competitive Doom, so who knows.


Like I said, the first few will be rough, but trust me; it's tons of fun! You should stop by #dmstuff and we'll set up a friendly, casual match :)


Decay said:

Lots of scrubs can win at DM; if you really want to gauge your skill, start dueling 1v1 where everything becomes much more heightened in importance. Inb4 "Decay you're bad, the hell do you know"

DM/LMS with multiple people, it's easy to win. Steal other people's kills, spam that BFG, launch those rockets. Granted, winning does take some skill, but duel is where it really gets down. I regularly play DM/LMS with good players (Rustking, Strangle, CombinebobNT, etc), sometimes I win, usually come close, but these guys all stomp me in duels regardless of the map or style (os/ns). DM doesn't require a brain, brainplay and carefully landing the important shots, not just shooting constantly, will win you duels.

Also, don't discount CTF. Being able to move faster and knowing tricks, landing those crucial shots is super important. Pub play can be fun, but private play is where skill and team work really come out.

I highly recommend giving multiple gamemodes a shot (FNF is a good place to start), just avoid the toxic players like Killstrike (aka Ghostkiller aka a thousand other names), capo, AVC (aka woodpecker/josharvery), dr.noob, and everything will be a-okay.

What Doomkid said here is also right, you should try and find the places to get regular multiplayer in. IRC is a good place to start, I also recommend TS3 for various groups. Even if they are clan run, like the Cube TS, they usually encourage others to hang around, do nothing play games make maps, etc.


While I'll agree with most of that; I disagree on DM not requiring any thought. Duels are certainly a different beast and put players on more clear of an even field, but DM is still just as even of a field; it's just a totally different strategy required. Play enough DM's and you'll find that the top players are the typical suspects. If it were as brain-dead as you said, this would not be the case.

By the same token, DM's with 8+ people are also a totally different beast.

Being good at duels doesn't make you good at DM.

You cannot draw a line at stealing kills, either, because that's relative. You might think I just stole your kill, but maybe I just died (for any reason; maybe you ran up and stole my target's kill on me) and was reclaiming my kill. Also, how is stealing a kill any worse than killing someone who spawns in front of you, or preventing them from getting that good weapon they need? It's not. There are no rules in DM; it's just get the most kills the fastest. As I said, there are plenty of strategies to exploit in order win a DM; it's just a totally different beast of managing multiple people rather than just one. Some people multi-task better than others. Though I will certainly agree that it is much easier to get lost in the crowd in DM, through managing multiple opponents you can turn a fight your way.

One last thing, I never said it before, but I had a lot of fun in that LMS; would love to do it again some time. Meant to send you some better feedback on those maps, but I haven't made time for it like I should have; apologies.

Share this post


Link to post

For both you will need to know the layouts also, devote lots of time to playing in the desired mode if there's someone you're looking to duel, I wouldn't mind a few games myself. I wouldn't advise bots in the case of DM/duel find some players for that a player has the ability of free will, whereas a robot, does not. With speedrunning you will have to have a shit tonne of patience and get into the habit of seeing the same map over and over, (something I haven't got) in order to persevere with it also you'd have to be critical of yourself, watch what you've recorded and think "now where can I save sometime". You would also need strategies, shortcuts and take advantage of infighting. Those are my opinions on the matter but it seems that's all covered as well as other vital points.

Share this post


Link to post
Fonze said:

Like I said, the first few will be rough, but trust me; it's tons of fun! You should stop by #dmstuff and we'll set up a friendly, casual match :)



While I'll agree with most of that; I disagree on DM not requiring any thought. Duels are certainly a different beast and put players on more clear of an even field, but DM is still just as even of a field; it's just a totally different strategy required. Play enough DM's and you'll find that the top players are the typical suspects. If it were as brain-dead as you said, this would not be the case.

By the same token, DM's with 8+ people are also a totally different beast.

Being good at duels doesn't make you good at DM.

You cannot draw a line at stealing kills, either, because that's relative. You might think I just stole your kill, but maybe I just died (for any reason; maybe you ran up and stole my target's kill on me) and was reclaiming my kill. Also, how is stealing a kill any worse than killing someone who spawns in front of you, or preventing them from getting that good weapon they need? It's not. There are no rules in DM; it's just get the most kills the fastest. As I said, there are plenty of strategies to exploit in order win a DM; it's just a totally different beast of managing multiple people rather than just one. Some people multi-task better than others. Though I will certainly agree that it is much easier to get lost in the crowd in DM, through managing multiple opponents you can turn a fight your way.

One last thing, I never said it before, but I had a lot of fun in that LMS; would love to do it again some time. Meant to send you some better feedback on those maps, but I haven't made time for it like I should have; apologies.

I'll say "granted" to some points; though for the most part I don't think much brain is needed other than BFG/power-up control, at least nowhere near the extent of duels.

One thing that's also important for duels is knowing map tricks, and the speed runners I've played with tend to pick up on these things fast (getting over ledges, wallruns, lift timings).

Re: the LMS I think we're playtesting new maps/new beta this weekend, everyone is invited, check in Saturday/Sunday on IRC (find me in #deathmatch on zanirc) or TeamSpeak3 (67.80.37.169) and you're welcome to play. Speed runners might be interested in LMS actually, since you only have 1 life you need to move fast, avoiding obstacles, large amounts of projectiles, move fast and land those important shots in order to be the last man standing.

Share this post


Link to post
rdwpa said:

Like Doomkid says, don't worry about being skilled enough. I started dabbling in speedrunning this year and it has really broadened my appreciation of maps in general -- it has been a nice foil to my earlier feeling that gameplay-focused maps should optimize for pure challenge or amusement during casual play. I'm not that good at it yet, but I've still beaten some humble records and improved my control of the player a lot, so I feel like I've accomplished something. By running a map a lot, you will gain the skills needed to get a better time, even if you don't have them at the beginning.

There seems to be a "record time or bust" mentality in speedrunning that probably dissuades LOTS of people from even dabbling in it, unfortunately. Even as I say this, I didn't submit any demos until I got a record, thinking they wouldn't have been good enough otherwise. Something should probably be done to counter that.


i would second all the above; speedrunning really increases your knowledge of the game, monster behaviour, dexterity etc. and you dont really have to worry about records - the process is fun, trying to beat your PBs etc.

people havent really touched on the social aspect: playing with other people is very different to speedrunning, which is primarily a solo pursuit. of course you have interaction based on watching each others demos and challenging each other but playing directly against others is something very different.

you are also unlikely to get humiliated doing a speedrun, but dropping in on a random DM will most likely result in quite a pasting, at first.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×