Why all the hate for The Chasm?

[shotfan]

Aquanet said:

As a historical artifact, playing the Chasm level with such unfair platforming, it's kind of fun. But if you're playing the map cold, the last room is, in most people's book, not very good design as you've already been conditioned by the previous narrow walkway section to think there are escape teleporters at the bottom.

Meanwhile, fair =/= good design and unfair =/= bad design.

Funny, first you say that the level is good because you can check upcoming obstacles in advance, and then you go and say that is good that the last room is something other than the previous ones, even though you cannot see it beforehand and you have to rely on expectation.
"Historical artifact"? What the hell are you saying there?
Unfair is not a bad design? That is subjective, so nothing to discuss here.

[Aquanet]

shotfan said:

Funny, first you say that the level is good because you can check upcoming obstacles in advance, and then you go and say that is good that the last room is something other than the previous ones, even though you cannot see it beforehand and you have to rely on expectation.
"Historical artifact"? What the hell are you saying there?
Unfair is a not bad design? That is subjective, so nothing to discuss here.

Honeysweets you have misread my posts. First one said the level is ok only if you know its problems/design suck in advance. Second post expounded on this.

[Buckshot]

Personally one of my favorite DOOM 2 maps.

I wonder if the folks behind these "why all the hate over [insert whatever subject here]" actually believe there's a vast majority of hate towards that particular subject... or they're just calling it out to pretend there's a general sense of dislike to instigate attention and small talk about said subject.

[Cupboard]

Chasm is rather okay. Some of the side areas have really memorable rooms. Strange fights and ambushes. That's really the best part of the level, is finding the areas and getting away from ledge city

But Use3D is right, it's the only map to use your fast movement against you. The player is always encouraged to be dodging and running errywhere throughout Dewm.

[T-Rex]

Buckshot said:

I wonder if the folks behind these "why all the hate over [insert whatever subject here]" actually believe there's a vast majority of hate towards that particular subject... or they're just calling it out to pretend there's a general sense of dislike to instigate attention and small talk about said subject.

While it's true that some may think that a lot of people hate a certain map for some reason, there's some classic wads that are nowadays getting irrational and biased bashing, like HR, for example. Having played it with the DWMC, I've been seeing quite a number of people commenting "It sucks! Level design is too Wolf 3D/RotT-ish! Ugly as shit! 1994 wads were better! Music isn't for Doom! Meat walls in every single map! Blah blah blah..." I feel they gave it way too much negative feedback which could easily translate to "HR is impossible! Therefore, it's the wad's fault that I suck at it!" Yes, it's more difficult than Plutonia, and yes, the level design may not be up to par with maps/megawads of 1997, but it's got a charm and simplicity that makes me enjoy it, and it's certainly not horrible. The music, RotT's soundtrack is awesome and it can fit quite well in Doom. As for the levels, at least be thankful that they aren't cramped, and have wide open areas, so there's a lot of leeway in handling the opposition, unlike Plutonia. Yeah, I said it. The monster opposition, I really laugh at how people think it's "slaughterish." True, it had maps that had a monster count higher than anything before its time, but they're only a handful, and the true slaughtermaps in that wad are Maps 18, 22, 23, 24, and 32. Besides, there were quite a number of maps that predates the slaughter genre (Dario Casali's Punisher and Seej comes to mind, and I'm sure even a few more obscure wads). All the same, HR is very tame compared to its sequel and other critically acclaimed modern wads like Sunder and Combat Shock, which offers a whole new gameplay approach altogether.

[Spectre01]

I tried to enjoy HR multiple times, and think it's a fun WAD for the first 12 maps or so, but what follows I can only describe as annoying and not fun to play. And I actually like Combat Shock/Sunlust so difficulty is not the issue.

[T-Rex]

rileymartin said:

I tried to enjoy HR multiple times, and think it's a fun WAD for the first 12 maps or so, but what follows I can only describe as annoying and not fun to play. And I actually like Combat Shock/Sunlust so difficulty is not the issue.

To each their own I guess. Some like HR's level design and some don't. To be fair, it's decent if not great, and there are much crappier maps out there.

[shotfan]

Aquanet said:

Honeysweets you have misread my posts. First one said the level is ok only if you know its problems/design suck in advance. Second post expounded on this.

Alright then. Sorry if I was too harsh. I guess this is what I get for posting half-awake.

[Seele00TextOnly]

I like The Chasm because it will be fun watching Tarnsman play it on Blind Doom
an essay by Seele Zerozero in Text format Only.

It is not uncommon knowledge that Doomworld resident and common shitposter Tarnsman is conducting a long running playthrough of the original Doom games with his monitor turned off. I thought it was a silly idea at first but he really went ahead and did it. When he got to the end of episode 3 of Doom he couldn't beat it without my advice and that made me feel important and finally of some use to the community for once in my life. I told him he ought to rocket jump backwards across a big gap and it worked. Little did I know that afterwards he would declare victory and not proceed to do episode 4 because it was pretty much impossible to orient himself. Then around a month or so ago tArnsman began his playthrough of Doom 2. I thought he would not make it past Dead Simple because of the monsters but it was flooded with powerups and the monsters were weaker and less plentiful on I'm Too Young to Die. Now, standing before him down the stretch is The Chasm. It's impossible. The combat and damage floor alone will utterly destroy him and it will be fun to watch. But obviously it's kind of not going to happen because of the chasm-y parts of The Chasm. Like all those parts where you're walking on sunshine across narrow paths that bend. Because of this it has been determined that some sort of Mod (a programming alteration upon the original game mechanics) will be employed that either gives his Doomguy a cane to tap the floor in front of him or some sort of bag of marbles. I prefer the cane because Doomguy could slip on one of the marbles. Anyway this aspect of The Chasm makes it fun because it offers a unique challange to the visually impaired as they try to make their way through Doom 2. Therefore people shouldn't hate The Chasm; it's way cool.

[Deadwing]

This level is too gimmicky, IMO.

[Koko Ricky]

I wonder how much less it would be hated if those goddamn ledges were wider.

[esselfortium]

I like The Chasm. Its grandiose scale combined with dangerous catwalks and imposing vistas make it a major standout in Doom 2, and a great example of the kind of surreal, dream-logic setting that Sandy Petersen's works excel so much at creating.

[Tarnsman]

Everyone talks about chasm for the walkways but honestly it's all those optional areas I love.

[illuknisaa]

This thread inspired me to make a map that is a mix of chasm and sniper's last stand from mohaa. Just gonna replace snipers with revenants.

[Tracer]

I like it.

Spoiler

[RaphaelMode]

Sandy Petersen got the vision, and relatively frequently craeted free, happy, unleashed designs. The Chasm is good. It represents freedom and happiness, not in a gameplay way but in a self-realization way.

[snapshot]

Springy said:

I also liked the little underwater part which was nicely done

Aaaaand .... I Just discovered something new .

[VGamingJunkie]

Doesn't look like an underwater area, maybe it would have been more convincing if they had a waterfall texture just inside the door to show you going into the water itself.

[Looper]

I would say the map is very nonlinear with many optional areas.

[Clonehunter]

I thought this was about Chasm: The Rift for some reason.

But Chasm wasn't fun from what I recall. More of a slog. In fact, that entire section of Doom II was fairly bleh from what I recall of my single playthrough of it.

[june gloom]

Most of the 3rd episode is actually pretty good. The Chasm stands out as the one big stinker. A big part of that is the narrow walkways; while sometimes Petersen throws you a bone by filling in certain areas to create more walkable space, you're going to spend a lot of your time on tightropes while getting tag-teamed by cacos and lost souls.

The side areas aren't much better; most of them are just twisty little passages with new enemies around every corner. The only section I would say is actually decent is that large, wide secret area you have to raise the stairs to, with an army of imps waiting in ambush (and then chaingunners move in from behind after you've explored the passage way in the back.

[MrGlide]

I thought the chasm was ok, a little to much running around Trying to figure out where the hell to go.

[VGamingJunkie]

Pistol starting is a bit of a hassle but, other than that, it's pretty forgettable. If the last area didn't have inescapable pits, I wouldn't have really had a problem with it as a whole.

[Camahueto]

I'm pretty indifferent towards it. Back in the day i just found it a bit ugly (and a somewhat nonesensical; what the hell is it supposed to be?), but not really that hard. The hardest parts are the Cacos Lost Souls floating around the... ropes? while you tranverse them.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

Jesus, I don't know who's trolling who anymore in this thread.

[shotfan]

One thing is certain: The Chasm trolls us all.

[yakfak]

the chasm should have been a METAL2 base with a simple key progression and a looping layout, perhaps with some blue armor stashed on a ledge. anything else offends me

[Crunchynut44]

shotfan said:

One thing is certain: The Chasm trolls us all.

One could even say the map made good use of...sarchasm

Ill see myself out.

[Aquanet]

If you gaze long into The Chasm, The Chasm also gazes into you.

[VGamingJunkie]

I just remembered something I found oddly amusing about the level. That one couple of platforms with the invulnerability sphere, they raised the more you pressed use around the edge so you could make the center piece (Technically, you could with the whole thing but that's just adding challenge at that point) raise all the way up to the ceiling. For some reason, I got a laugh out of this as a kid.