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DustFalcon85

20 years of Final Doom (TNT & Plutonia). PC and PSX versions discussed here.

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I know it's late for me to talk about this a week ago but Final Doom (TNT: Evilution and The Plutonia Experiment) just turned 20 years old on June 17 2016 and the PS1 version of Final Doom will be turning 20 years old on October 1 2016. So what are your favorite memories and moments you had in Final Doom? For me it's more challenging than Doom 1 & 2 and a lot of fighting for your life w/ literally 300 enemies in a single level! The Plutonia levels: Slayer and Neurosphere are well done sequels and tributes to the Doom II levels: Circle of Death (aka O of Destruction) and The Inmost Dens.

On to the PS1 version. I loved the PS1 starry sky w/ the blue at the bottom and Aubrey Hodges music track Unhallowed from the level Geryon - although it's a level from Master Levels for Doom II but it's still part of the PS1 Final Doom - w/ it's scary whistling sound that'll make the hair on you stand up w/ fear. I was dissapointed that the level The Death Domain had it's switch removed from the PS1 version. I wonder why? Is it because of technical reasons of not risking the game to crash or Midway didn't have time to fix it? Will Aubrey Hodges give the PS1 Final Doom the 20th Anniversary treatment? I hope so!

Happy 20th (belated) Birthday Final Doom! :-)

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First time playing "Hunted" and "Go 2 It" gave me great joy when I was a young pup. Also, the attention to detail in TNT always amazed me there was great care taken to make maps with a more realistic look and the whole parallel dimension effect in "Worm hole" had me gripped. I remember thinking to myself how great the soundtrack was and always got excited when it came to "The Mill".

As for the PSX version, not so much. Again, there was a few new tracks, I think but I don't remember much about it as much as I do the original PSX Doom.

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Final Doom is a great expansion that I've learned to appreciate more than Doom 2 over time. Both IWADs make much better use of the new Doom 2 bestiary for generally more interesting gameplay. I prefer Plutonia to TNT due to its consistent two-author design and focus on small maps with low monster counts, but filled with dangerous traps and tough enemies. I still appreciate TNT due to it's more ambitious level design, like the previously mentioned Wormhole or even the much hated Mount Pain. Hey, that mountain with the Lost Souls looked pretty damn cool back in the day. As far as Plutonia goes, I consider map 29 to be the best IWAD level which really nailed the city setting that very few PWADs seem to be able to successfully realize. Maps 11, 31 and 32 are standout examples as well. I really enjoy Hunted and with some practice understanding the door mechanics it's not that difficult to navigate

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You know what i did really like about Final Doom?
It did have more revenants than Doom 2, oh and it had also plenty of these baldy chaingunners and skinny arch-viles too.

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I've been playing the IWADs + Master Levels over the last couple of months. I consider myself a noob to Doom and the modding community--I played Doom and Doom 2 a ton as a child but I'm really getting into them now.

I'm actually on Final Doom now. I don't have much to say about Plutonia yet; beat the first level and decided to just stick with TNT:E for now =p Of course I've heard that Plutonia is much better and much harder, and seeing an AV on Plutonia's m01 (along with traps where chaingunner closets open behind you...) definitely confirms the "harder" part. I'm looking forward to the challenge of Plutonia, I just really hope the challenge is well-crafted. From what I hear, it seems like lot of the challenge is from cheap stuff like the chaingunner traps. Hoping that's not the case. I consider myself an average, casual player and I've been playing everything on HMP; I'd like to think I won't have to play Plutonia on HNTR, but I will if I end up having to, I s'pose.

Anyway, TNT:E. A little over 2/3 through it. I know it doesn't have the best reputation among Doomers today, but... I think it's pretty spiffy. Maybe it's just because I've only lightly sampled a few of the big PWADs, so my brain is still calibrated for early/mid-90s Doom level design. *shrug*

More than a few of the maps are unremarkable, yeah. But a handful have been a lot of fun. I loved the central conceit in Wormhole. I thought the two secret levels were fun as hell, m31 especially had a lot of nice atmosphere and a strong sense of place. Really liked The Mill, m18 I think, it had a couple of really neat set pieces. One where you're stuck with an AV in a tiny room with 4 teleporters, and you gotta time using the teleporters to dodge his attack. Then a big room with 8 revs in cages, and a bunch of skinny pillars you can use to block their missiles. I dig the big fights that expect you to use the environment to your advantage.

Habitat is apparently pretty infamous, and yeah, the sewer bits...uggh. But that level has one of the nicest-looking areas I've ever seen in a map so far. The very end, you pop out of this metal opening in a hill, and you're at a river/creek. Just a very simple, understated, lush green river bank, to contrast with the metal thing you came out of. To contrast with all the grimy sewer themes that came before actually. Really makes you feel like you've escaped from somewhere. Too bad the level is so tedious otherwise.

Semi-related question... after I finish TNT, I'm either gonna start back with Plutonia or run through Ultimate Doom on UV. Difficulty-wise, how would Plutonia on HMP compare with Doom on UV? Maybe with and without Thy Flesh Consumed, since that might change the answer, ha. Based on just the first map in Plutonia...I'm thinking it might still be harder. xd

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I love Final Doom on PC and PS1, many great memories! I've always felt that Plutonia makes for a better Doom II than the actual Doom II.

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I'm also new, and I got back into playing doom with some tougher wads, like Going Down and Sunlust. So when I finally played Plutonia (on HMP I think) it seemed like a fun romp (well except for the long-distance chaingunning) and I said, Wow, this wad was really influential. It also taught me some important skills like handling the rocket launcher at close quarters, right up to the edge of splash damage.

Then I played TNT. It's a step beyond Doom 2, but I don't feel like it breaks into a whole new universe quite like Plutonia does. But cheers to both and to doomers making some mad $$$.

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Peckles said:

Semi-related question... after I finish TNT, I'm either gonna start back with Plutonia or run through Ultimate Doom on UV. Difficulty-wise, how would Plutonia on HMP compare with Doom on UV? Maybe with and without Thy Flesh Consumed, since that might change the answer, ha. Based on just the first map in Plutonia...I'm thinking it might still be harder. xd


I have only played on UV but I think Doom is much easier than Plutonia on HMP because it lacks all the dangerous monsters like Chaingunners, Revenants and Archviles, which are a staple in difficult WADs. Thy Flesh Consumed has stupid balance in which the first two maps are "Plutonia hard" and then the rest is easy in comparison.

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rileymartin said:

I have only played on UV but I think Doom is much easier than Plutonia on HMP because it lacks all the dangerous monsters like Chaingunners, Revenants and Archviles, which are a staple in difficult WADs. Thy Flesh Consumed has stupid balance in which the first two maps are "Plutonia hard" and then the rest is easy in comparison.


Yeah, that's about what I figured. Thanks for responding

More thoughts on TNT as I get closer to finishing it...
m24/Quarry was a fun little map, kind of weirdly short though, given how late in the set it comes.

Baron's Den was kind of a slog, I zoned out a few times playing it. Those mean-spirited fake exits were great though. Aggravating but clever. Not entirely arbitrary either, I kept wondering "where's this baron's den?" all through the map, so I should've seen it coming at the end. m26/Ballistyx was a quirky but pretty fun map.

I guess my ultimate opinion on TNT will be informed by the last 4 levels coming up, but so far I think it gets way too much hate. Lots of maps that aren't really remarkable but the handful of great ones have been a ton of fun. People say it's a kick up in difficulty from Doom/Doom 2, but I haven't noticed that; it's felt about on par with Doom 2 for me. Again, still gotta finish the damn thing, so maybe I should knock on wood.

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Peckles said:

I guess my ultimate opinion on TNT will be informed by the last 4 levels coming up, but so far I think it gets way too much hate. People say it's a kick up in difficulty from Doom/Doom 2, but I haven't noticed that; it's felt about on par with Doom 2 for me.


Map 27 is probably the most infamous/hardest level in the wad. But I agree that it's not really much harder than regular Doom 2.

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rileymartin said:

Map 27 is probably the most infamous/hardest level in the wad. But I agree that it's not really much harder than regular Doom 2.


Haha, just finished it and was coming back here to say "yeah, spoke too soon!"

Even on HMP, things got pretty hairy a few times. I liked it though, especially the flocks and flocks of imps at the beginning area, and mowing them down like grass with the SSG. I liked the way the theme kind of shifted around, standard indoor stuff at first, then the parapet walk around the perimeter outside, finally that last crazy room (left out the nukage spiral cuz that part honestly kinda sucked). Really loved all the action going on in the background, around the map's actual edge where you couldn't get to. Really neat visuals.

Man, that exit room though. two rocky pillars, revs/manc/AV trying to blast you at the door and you have to be careful about backing up because too far and you'll be in the lava. Even with just that handful of baddies that room gave me fits, I was at 7 health when I got there so I'm ashamed to say I had to make a save there and reload it twice before I got through--can't imagine what all's in that room on UV. I did die very early on at first though, so at least I managed to get through the map on a pistol start without needing to reload til the very end. Pretty fun in any case

Not sure what was up with the end of the level though. Into the tele-pit in the exit room, then you're on a hill on the edge of the map where all the crazy stuff is happening, you try to move and end up picking up a medkit before triggering the finish screen. Almost made the map feel out-of-context with the rest of TNT

EDIT: Okay, so I finished TNT (thought it was fantastic). Clenched my teeth and started Plutonia. I've heard a few casual/inexperienced players like me say they have to get through it on HNTR or even ITYTD, but I'm gonna at least give HMP a fair shot.

The first three levels were all total chores, IMO, but I'd heard folks say the same thing and that it picks up after those first ones. m04 (Caged) was neat, thought it did a couple of interesting things, but it didn't blow me away. Not really a fan of cramped maps (the fast, open combat is what keeps me coming back to Doom), but it wasn't bad.

m05 though, Ghost Town, wow. Just got through this one and it absolutely floored me. It looks great, for one. Dispenses with all the brown. The courtyard is beautiful, and the stairway flanked by all the impaled zombies made me laugh out loud, really loved that. But the combat is what really impressed me. Seeing the SMM flanked by 6 or 8 chaingunners was quite an experience. Dealing with that, getting the blue key and immediately triggering an ambush of 4-6 revs, front and back, well, damn. Not to mention your instinct pulls you back into the open area where all those chaingunners have been replenished.

Just crazy. Then right after *that* there's the AVs and barons at the end. That map was a blast -- pretty tough, but while it was cheap at times, it didn't feel like it *relied* on cheapness, which is the impression the first couple of maps gave me. If most of the wad is more like this map, I can definitely see why people like it so much, and I think I will too, even though I'm sure I'll be tempted to sling my laptop at the wall on a few occasions.

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Wow. Plutonia has gotten back to feeling a *little* too cheap for me, but happily, not so much that I haven't been really enjoying myself. m07, Caughtyard, gave me some fits (to hell with that teleporting AV), as did some of the seriously mean-spirited traps in m09 and m10, but challenge aside, they're pretty fun maps.

Hunted is the one that made me wanna post about it though, hot damn. I'd never have thought that a plain old maze (with the ultra-tedious way the doors work, at that) could be that f'ing awesome. Specifically, nervously going through the maze while listening to all the AVs constantly chuckle over each other--that was tense as hell, and a clever use of the sound. Then the heartbreak of realizing the switch you hit doesn't open the bars in front of you, and you have to go around and get through a whole 'nother section of the maze to escape. Really well done. Mean, but well done.

Felt like my GI tract liquefied a bit at the beginning when the wall opens to reveal the whole damn tribe of AVs sitting there. That was a cool moment 'cuz one of the few PWADs I've played was Vanguard (the first 4 or so levels at least). I liked the AV level in that, and realized playing Hunted that the disappearing AV trick in 13 Angry AVs was an homage to Hunted. (Off-topic, but probably ought to finish Vanguard after Plutonia. Really, really enjoyed the few maps of it I played).

Anyway, I can't even begin to imagine how crazy Plutonia'll get from here on. A third of the way through and it's already been quite an experience to say the least.

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I have a love hate relationship with Final Doom there awsome as hell levels in that set, Power Control, Central Processing, etc. And the there is Hunted, the map that made me Hate Plutonia with all my soul. the PSX version fixed that map though and made it less cheap.

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Some of the earlier maps felt a lot cheaper to me than Hunted. It was definitely a trial but it didn't unmercifully kick my ass over and over like a couple of the earlier maps. I guess it probably comes down to how the player feels about AVs.

Hunted might be my favorite map so far, along with Ghost Town and maybe Onslaught. The 3-4 maps after Hunted didn't really blow me away, they were solid though. I did like the two secret levels. m31 is a neat idea on paper but gets kind of stale, it was fun though. Go 2 It, though, damn. All I knew going in was that it's apparently the proto-slaughtermap and that the HR sort of wads (none of which I've ever played) are descendants of it. It was my first experience with slaughtermaps and it was tons of fun but it's definitely not the kinda map I'd want to play all the time. Just in terms of layout I think it's really, really clever how they expanded on D2's m01, realizing that was a fun moment.

The intermission screens said the two secret maps were the two hardest in Plutonia, but I don't think they're even among the hardest in the first half of the wad. 31 was pretty easy aside from a really mean AV trap, fighting one Cyberdemon at a time in a wide open space is kind of a basic Doom skill. Go 2 It was much harder but I took it super slow and let the monsters mostly kill each other, plus there were all the megaspheres. Caughtyard, m07 I think, has probably been the hardest for me so far. I imagine the last 15 maps get pretty damn silly though, we'll see.

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I played the PSX version of Final Doom on and off for some 18 years before booting up the PC version. It's really weird how different my experience of it was, as the PSX version is morbid, desolate, hopeless and terrifying, where as on PC it's just another action ramp with some very uneven new graphics and forgettable music. Blasphemy to some, I know, but it just didn't do it for me after having spent so much time basking in the colored lighting and dark ambient. I suppose it goes to show how effective it can be to alter the mood of a game.

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Bumping this.

So how come Human BBQ's music is missing the beats in the MIDI. Is is b/c of the removal of the copyrighted code in Doom's source code?

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DustFalcon85 said:

Bumping this.

So how come Human BBQ's music is missing the beats in the MIDI. Is is b/c of the removal of the copyrighted code in Doom's source code?


Ahem...

Doom Wiki said:

This MUS lump features volume controller changes with a value above the MIDI maximum of 127, the song will be broken if the MUS reader does not clamp these values

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The Final Doom on PSX is the first Doom which I played. Some time later I meet PC Doom and it's looks pretty different. Especially when I saw TNT and Plutonia maps which not included in PSX version! I like both versions almost the same.

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The music for TNT definitely deserves some praise, especially the music for Map 20: Central Processing. Soothing music to go along with a long level. It perfectly matches up with the later part of the level with the starry night sky.

But what's with the hate for Mount Pain? (Not necessarily in this thread, but in general.) Nothing wrong with a level that tests your endurance as a Doom player. Plutonia could have benefitted from such a level as opposed to all the short but brutal levels. A good Doom player should be multi-skilled - deft in small areas/many monsters + SSG, but able to hold his own in long levels with little power.

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Already mentioned by several posters, but I just gotta say I love Wormhole by Ty, very cool and original map. And speaking of music, I love the fan made music pack for Plutonia.

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Im very nostalgic towards Final Doom. One (or two, rather) of the first map packs/megawads I played in multiplayer coop with my friends. I remember us screaming in awe and anger because of the difficulty in Plutonia and the scale of some of the Evilution maps. Damn, we spent maaany hours. "No way anyone can beat this in simgleplayer UV!!!"

Today Plutonia still stands as one of my all time favs. Im not a particular fan of "jungle" and camo themes, but the levels doesnt even look "jungel-y" to me anyway, so I can easily look past that, and I do.

Thumbs up for Final Doom!

edit: also: Death´s Bells.

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I loved the psx music myself and the psx dooms were the first versions I owned and I loved them, still have a copy of the 1st game.

About the music, this might be old news but the psx music had a 20th anniversary extended version released at the start of this year.

http://aubreyhodges.bandcamp.com/album/doom-playstation-official-soundtrack-20th-anniversary-extended-edition

Cracking!!

EDIT: alas club doom isn't extended but that makes sense after all.

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There's a copy of PS1 Final Doom for cheap in my hometown. Apparently the box does not include a booklet... Do you know if it's incomplete, or maybe some versions were published without a booklet ?

I already own the music (from the composer´s bandcamp page)

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VonHootie02 said:

Can we take a moment and appreciate the awesome music that came in all versions of Final Doom?

Into The Beast's Belly is my kind jam

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DustFalcon85 said:

Since the 20th Anniversary of PS1 Final Doom is more than two weeks away. Anyone playing it on October 1st?


Time to dust off my old copy of PS1 Final Doom that I've had since it was originally released. Vesperas here I come!

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soner du said:

There's a copy of PS1 Final Doom for cheap in my hometown. Apparently the box does not include a booklet... Do you know if it's incomplete, or maybe some versions were published without a booklet ?

I already own the music (from the composer´s bandcamp page)



I have the original game on disk and it came with a manual. I think yours is missing it.

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