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MCarsten

Fair, fun and balanced

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I thought Alien Vendetta was pretty fun. I'll third the Scythe suggestion, as well. Very fun.

And as usual, I have to strongly suggest you play Cold As Hell.

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a lot of the well regarded "hard" maps are designed with multiple difficulties in mind. nowadays, it seems like ultra-violence is mostly catered towards people who really want a challenge. I have no shame in choosing a lower difficulty.

however if you're looking for maps that are fairly balanced even on uv, I'd recommend doom the way id did 1/2 and 2002 a doom odyssey. both are quite easy.

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TraceOfSpades said:

I thought Alien Vendetta was pretty fun.


It's a rather lengthy wad though with some of the larger maps, like Misri Halek, being a navigational nightmare for first time players. I clocked 16 hours on my continuous run, only second to the 20 hour mammoth that was Hellbound.

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I'll join the crowd with that, I actually really liked Scythe map 1-29. Infact, if it had only been the first 20 or so maps it migth have been my fav map-pack. Map 30 drags the score way down, it's the worst slog I've ever played and actually forced my way through (because I liked the rest that much.)

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Shit, I thought Map30 was a fantastic conclusion. One of my favorite things about Scythe is that it truly does cover the whole gamut.

I wonder if the OP has returned/tried any of the suggested wads yet.

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I have a very hate/love relationship with Scythe Map30. The slog is a sort of challenge in it's own, figuring out how to clear out huge rooms safely. I've had a lot of fun trying to do it... but on the other hand, I've never actually taken the time to complete doing so (most I did was the western area, never cleaned out the eastern redrock halls).

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It's the kind of map that's more fun to replay when you know what you're doing but a huge pain when going in blind. It especially helps to know when and where Archviles are released, because they will revive a ton of monsters that you already killed if you happen to go somewhere else in the map. Also, 18 Cyberdemons.

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The problem I have with very difficult modern WADs is not that they are impossible - they are not, but often that they require lots of saves/reloads which for me throws off the rhythm of playing Doom. Lots of WADs throw in encounters where you will almost certainly die the first time, but the second or third time you'll have the knowledge to prevail. Ideally, I'd like to have more of a chance to think on the spot, react and succeed the first time (not guaranteed to survive the first time, just an honest chance). So for me, playing most new WADs on UV is not an issue of can't do it. It's more an issue of I'm an adult with limited free time and playing this on UV simply takes too long

The other thing that I've noticed about modern WADs is that they often have a preferred order of exploration on each level. Like, you can go N, S, E, W at the beginning, but the level is exponentially easier if you go S, E, W, N in that order. On one hand, that helps replayability and gives a non-linear feel. But on the other hand, it creates this huge difficulty disparity for first-time playthroughs, entirely dependent on RNG (which directions you choose first).

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On 7/26/2016 at 6:05 PM, grahf said:

The problem I have with very difficult modern WADs is not that they are impossible - they are not, but often that they require lots of saves/reloads which for me throws off the rhythm of playing Doom. Lots of WADs throw in encounters where you will almost certainly die the first time, but the second or third time you'll have the knowledge to prevail. Ideally, I'd like to have more of a chance to think on the spot, react and succeed the first time (not guaranteed to survive the first time, just an honest chance). So for me, playing most new WADs on UV is not an issue of can't do it. It's more an issue of I'm an adult with limited free time and playing this on UV simply takes too long

The other thing that I've noticed about modern WADs is that they often have a preferred order of exploration on each level. Like, you can go N, S, E, W at the beginning, but the level is exponentially easier if you go S, E, W, N in that order. On one hand, that helps replayability and gives a non-linear feel. But on the other hand, it creates this huge difficulty disparity for first-time playthroughs, entirely dependent on RNG (which directions you choose first).


If I get a sense that a map will require lots of saves/reloads (meaning, like, well into the double-digits), I play it on a lower difficulty setting if it has been included. I don't think save-and-reload-spamming through a map on UV counts as beating it. If that's the way most people approach hard wads (as opposed to dropping down below UV), it's not hard to understand the antipathy -- that isn't a fun way to play at all for most people. Players should recognize that, however, and not do it.

On a related note, I think that many people end up thinking certain slaughtermaps are "grindy" or tedious specifically because they are saving a lot (sometimes >0 saves is too many, at least on the easier ones). Being able to die without consequences kills a lot of the tension of the interstitial lower-pressure stages. (Also, we're in 2016, so I'd hope no one cites a nuts.wad-type map or a trollmap that is tedious either way you slice it as a definitive example of a slaughtermap.)

 

edit: I don't agree with this anymore lol

Edited by rd.

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rdwpa said:

On a related note, I think that many people end up thinking certain slaughtermaps are "grindy" or tedious specifically because they are saving a lot (sometimes >0 saves is too many, at least on the easier ones).


That's because many slaughtermaps are grindy and tedious unless you have the foreknowledge of how the map works and do the required speedrunning to flip switches/open up the map to maximize infighting potential. Something like Sunder, if played "normally" in stages is extremely boring.

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I'm iffy with hard maps, sometimes I find them a bit dull and a bit of a chore to get through, other times I have loads of fun even if I am dying a lot.

Although I will avoid slaughter maps, no matter how they are done, they always feel like a grind to me and I just zone out...I want my games fun, not a grind. Life is already a grind, want fun games. Even the map I made, in the cathedral, I felt it was too grindy some.

But yeah, difficulty can be loads of fun, other times not so much. Can't really describe it properly....I just play and enjoy, or not. I guess flow is one thing, I like to zip about and get close, back off, zip some more. With slaughter maps you are too overwhelmed to do much other than slog through, or get stuck in a corner for ages. I can have fun with hard maps if they aren't that kind.

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Absolutely, I agree with you that playing on HMP or even lower is what people should do if they find themselves saving/reloading a lot. But the problem is that people have been playing Doom for a LONG time and each has their own idea of what UV should feel like.

And of course over time UV has increased in difficulty drastically since the release of Doom II. I kind of feel like this new 'modern' UV should simply be Nightmare instead (I don't know technically whether this is possible, without Nightmare respawning etc). That better communicates the actual real-world difficulty of these levels, IMO.

rdwpa said:

If I get a sense that a map will require lots of saves/reloads (meaning, like, well into the double-digits), I play it on a lower difficulty setting if it has been included. I don't think save-and-reload-spamming through a map on UV counts as beating it. If that's the way most people approach hard wads (as opposed to dropping down below UV), it's not hard to understand the antipathy -- that isn't a fun way to play at all for most people. Players should recognize that, however, and not do it.

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It'd be nice if there was a graceful way to add "UV-plus" -- -solonet is kind of odd in the way weapons remain after being picked up. The trouble with the "nightmare should be the 'difficult' version and UV should be more tame" sentiment (which I've heard before a few times) is that nightmare changes the mechanics so much, not only of moment-to-moment combat but also of your goals in any given fight. I like Doom as much as I do because of the usual mechanics. The same goes for advocating UV -fast or something similar.

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rdwpa said:

The same goes for advocating UV -fast or something similar.


Erik Alm encouraged that mode for the first 20 Scythe levels in the text file for experienced players. Was it harder than usual? Sure. But it didn't feel "fair, fun and balanced" with the gameplay changes compared to regular UV Scythe.

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