Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Koko Ricky

Does SJW-reated stuff get helled because the term is pejorative?

Recommended Posts

sudo459 said:

No, that's just not true. We can care about different problems, but when people actively frame police brutality in the "it's the black community's problem", it's divisive. I'm sorry you don't like that but I don't know what else to say. I don't like it either, but I'm willing to admit it, and see how we can frame it into a more inclusive light.


Police violence against blacks is something that the black community knows the most about. Do you honestly think you know better than the people living the reality?

sudo459 said:

No, that's just not true either. You are specifically focusing on the race of the victims, here. Here's a question I hope you answer, at least to yourself, as honestly as possible. Why should the race of the victim matter, if racism cannot be determined to have been a factor?


Because trends are meaningful.

sudo459 said:

If the solution to the problem isn't combating racism, why does the victim's race matter? Do you see why this is so divisive? Whether you like it or not, saying "Whites matter too, but the blacks are killed more often" is saying that the white lives taken by police are not as important. I'm not trying to be rude, but you can't just ignore this. Especially when the rhetoric is "Talking about white victims is obscuring the black victims".


Society doesn't say that white lives don't matter. When white people are killed by the cops, the cops are condemned roundly. Nobody accuses the victim of being a "thug" (Insert euphemism here) or tries to imply they had it coming to them.

Black victims are dismissed. White victims are not. Black victims are killed at a higher rate.

I can't make this much clearer.

sudo459 said:

I don't care. My point is that it's possible, but you are claiming universality with nothing to back up such a claim, other than it's a issue for the general black population. Not every black person will or has faced racially charged adversity, and claiming that they will doesn't go by the data, because the data doesn't say 100%.


Perhaps you could start by listening to black people when they talk about their experiences, then. Sometimes there's more to life than "hard data".

sudo459 said:

Honestly I don't know. This is a tragedy, if this story is indeed true btw, and the police officer, I hope though doubt, should have faced some sort of disciplinary action. The reason I get to show anecdotes and you don't however is I'm trying to point out exceptions to the rule of the "all" you seem to be claiming. If it's just one that doesn't fit your narrative, you are wrong.


And yet your one example includes specifically racist language against a black person. So great, they got lucky and only had a "little" racism thrown their way.

sudo459 said:

Along time ago, when I was still enlisted into the us military, I went on a deployment to Iraq. While I was there, I came out as gay. Unfortunately for me, this was still in the era of "DADT" or "don't ask, don't tell". My black sergeant and I had a long talk about discrimination. Do you know what he said to me? "The most I've faced was being called a nigger while playing COD4 online. I feel bad for you, if I were going to lose my job simply for being black, I'd fight. I'd fight harder than you would, and so I will fight for you." I didn't get kicked out of the military. Even the Sergeant Major, who was black, told me that he'd never faced anything I was going through.


That's still not "nothing". But sure, there you go. Racism is solved. Black people have it grand in the US because your Sergeant only got called "nigger" a few times.

Congratufuckinglations.

sudo459 said:

Okay, I'll buy that. It sounds like a tragedy. I've read some about it as well, and also concluded that, in this specific incident, racism was the deciding factor. But it really seems like just a racist white dude had it out for blacks, and was in a position feel justified killing Tamir, a black child. If you want to claim a system of racial oppression allowed it to happen, I want a very solid, concise argument, since, you have a history of making assumptions.


Frankly, you're not coming across as intellectually honest in this discussion. If you want to make ad hom arguments about my "history", feel free.

sudo459 said:

But we don't have a separate movement for general police brutality, and if we do, it's completely drowned out by BLM. The "What about me?" sentiment is somewhat justified, because other people besides blacks are dying unjustly by the hands of the police, and SJWs don't seem to care, and BLM drowns out said discussion at best, and really does belittle it at worst. You even said it yourself. I qoute, "....this is uniquely an issue in the black community, ..." and assume that bringing up white victims is delegitimizing BLM. I quote, "With BLM, you get ALM, which is essentially "What about the white victims?!" In any of these cases, the point isn't to draw attention to actual problems, but to delegitimize the movement." You are being very dishonest here by saying that we can focus on more than one issue at time, and whites being killed by police is a tragedy, then turning right around and saying it's only a problem in black communities. I would start being a lot more careful with my words, if I were you, because you are only cementing my position away from yours, and diminishing my motivation to engage with you at all.


I honestly don't really care much about your position at this point. You seem to be absolutely convinced that racism is over, so good job. You solved racism. Everything is hunky dory because one white dude is cool with the status quo.

You can cry all you like about "SJWs" not respecting your opinion, but if you're not able to comprehend what I'm writing, then there's not much more I can do for you. Go do your own research.

EDIT: So this conversation has devolved pretty much exactly as expected.

No such thing as structural racism indeed. Good job, white people. Y'all solved racism. I'll just go ahead and let the black community know that everything's all good.

Share this post


Link to post
Membrain said:

When white people are killed by the cops, the cops are condemned roundly.

Black victims are dismissed. White victims are not.


Dude are you high? When white people get killed by the cops no one gives two shits. 252 white people have been killed by the police this year. 18 of them were unarmed. Please name me one of those people that got national coverage.

Black victims absolutely are dragged through the mud and called shit like thugs and whatnot, but are you seriously implying there is some national outrage for the white victims? Because there simply isn't.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm glad we both don't mind this conversation being over because it is. You seem incapable of not making assumptions about my position, thinking I am claiming racism to be over, which i haven't. When asked for evidence you basically said, fuck you I don't need evidence, and repeatedly dismissed my questions. I was honestly curious about your position, and considered myself you be learning something, asking questions when i wasnt sure about something, hoping you would clarify, something you refused to do. I was expecting to gain a better insight on this issue, since, as I've said before, I don't know. I've been honest this whole time, and as open as I could possibly be. Frankly, you can go fuck yourself.

Share this post


Link to post

I just skipped all the previous pages of the thraed sans the first one, and I am therefore able to conclude that this is all off topic.

But the issue seems to have has been ninja-resolved before I posted, so that's nice.

Share this post


Link to post

Sudo please tell me if you support any of the following.

Ending the war on drugs. Ending quota based policing. Ending harsh sentencing for non-violent offenders. Ending the practices that locks people with a criminal record into basically zero career options. Lowering fines for minor citations and violations and bringing back optional community service. Better deescalation training for police officers. Body Cameras.

Share this post


Link to post
Tarnsman said:

Sudo please tell me if you support any of the following.

Ending the war on drugs. Ending quota based policing. Ending harsh sentencing for non-violent offenders. Ending the practices that locks people with a criminal record into basically zero career options. Lowering fines for minor citations and violations and bringing back optional community service. Better deescalation training for police officers. Body Cameras.


Absolutely yes to all of the above. No question.

Share this post


Link to post
Tarnsman said:

Dude are you high? When white people get killed by the cops no one gives two shits. 252 white people have been killed by the police this year. 18 of them were unarmed. Please name me one of those people that got national coverage.

Black victims absolutely are dragged through the mud and called shit like thugs and whatnot, but are you seriously implying there is some national outrage for the white victims? Because there simply isn't.


The problem is you're dealing with a concerned troll or a radical. You've been stressing points for pages for no reason other than to demonstrate your platform.

I even linked http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/27/white-teen-gilbert-collar-killed-by-black-cop-trev/

and he didn't reply because he's not going to. He won't reply with legitimacy because his points aren't legitimate, because that's an illegitimate user.

Share this post


Link to post
sudo459 said:

Absolutely yes to all of the above. No question.


In that case this is the exact shit I'm talking about. Membrain and Sudo both would support policies that would have meaningful impacts on the black community but are at each others throats over the dumbest terminology differences. That is why SJW is used a pejorative. Because instead of finding common ground and working towards an end goal they get hung up on people not feeling exact the same way they do towards and issue and turn into screaming banshees that make people want to oppose them simply for that.

Then the system sits back and laughs because the people who should be working together to change it are busy eating themselves. But you know at least you made sure that someone used the special approved words to show how much they care about social justice. That's what really matters.

Basically if you're this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0diJNybk0Mw you are part of the problem

Share this post


Link to post
Tarnsman said:

Then the system sits back and laughs because the people who should be working together to change it are busy eating themselves. But you know at least you made sure that someone used the special approved words to show how much they care about social justice. That's what really matters.

I want to post that "serious clapping guy" image macro so bad right now..

Share this post


Link to post
Membrain said:

Black victims are dismissed. White victims are not. Black victims are killed at a higher rate.

If you look at the polls about media coverage and the outrage caused by cases of minority police killings compared to white police killing, you'd be very surpised to see literally the exact opposite is true to a large extent.

Membrain said:

And yet your one example includes specifically racist language against a black person. So great, they got lucky and only had a "little" racism thrown their way.

That's still not "nothing". But sure, there you go. Racism is solved. Black people have it grand in the US because your Sergeant only got called "nigger" a few times.

Wow, and the assumption that I've never faced racism or anything is pretty insulting given that, in sudo's story, the black sergeants have faced less racism than I have. I've been call honkey, white-trash, cracker, and I've been told I need to die because I'm white by black people. I'd say that's worse than being called a nigger by some anonymous asshole online because in my case it was a group of people in my face saying those things on every occasion.

Membrain said:

No such thing as structural racism indeed. Good job, white people. Y'all solved racism. I'll just go ahead and let the black community know that everything's all good.

No one is saying this at all. Why are you so disingenuous? You can't possibly think this was anyone's position, what, with us saying the exact opposite multiple times and everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Tarnsman said:

In that case this is the exact shit I'm talking about. Membrain and Sudo both would support policies that would have meaningful impacts on the black community but are at each others throats over the dumbest terminology differences. That is why SJW is used a pejorative. Because instead of finding common ground and working towards an end goal they get hung up on people not feeling exact the same way they do towards and issue and turn into screaming banshees that make people want to oppose them simply for that.

Then the system sits back and laughs because the people who should be working together to change it are busy eating themselves. But you know at least you made sure that someone used the special approved words to show how much they care about social justice. That's what really matters.

Basically if you're this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0diJNybk0Mw you are part of the problem


Yes, I agree, we should be focusing on the common ground between us. I kind of feel like I was trying to do that, to an extent, but of course, I can't not blame myself for any animosity the conversation caused. The only reason I felt the need to say anything in the first place though, is because I want be involved as well, and I'm tired of:

Being told I can't be because I'm not black, ie "Trying to solve black issues as a white person is pretty condescending, wouldn't you agree?"

Being told that I shouldn't get involved because I'm not black or that I can't understand the issue, ie "Do you honestly think you know better than the people living the reality?" and "... stepping to the side and amplifying what they (black people) are saying when possible is the best course of action."

Being told it's my fault even though there's nothing I can do about it, ie "If you are white, you have, hopefully unintentionally, contributed to or benefited from the oppression of people of color."

Being told that racial bias is exclusive to whites:
"...and maybe you know that even the most egalitarian Americans harbor unconscious negative attitudes about black people..."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/28/what-white-people-need-to-know-and-do-after-ferguson/

The idiotic solutions that are being thought up, ie:
"... reparations for slavery..." https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/black-lives-matter-answers-the-question-what-are-your-demands/
Racially charged bs like this: https://mic.com/articles/97900/10-simple-rules-for-being-a-non-racist-white-person#.nv8vbwl2T
And finally, "Whenever a black person walks into a classroom, he and/or she receives a standing O. Any white student who refuses to thusly apologize is immediately expelled."

Granted a few of those are fringe, but my point stands. These sentiments make me, and I'm sure a lot of other whites, feel like trying to fight this battle is none of our concern or that it's our fault, by virtue of being born white.

Share this post


Link to post

The irony in all that of course being that white people are the majority in the U.S. and that the attitudes and proposals you mentioned (bullshit like reparations) seems to push more people away from helping rather than convincing them there are legitimate issues that need addressing and that we should work together to fix them.

Some of the things you mentioned seem to be kind of exteme/fringe to be fair, but still, it's all self sabotage. Those extreme positions, attitudes and "proposed solutions" dissuade people from taking the real racial issues seriously. Self defeating causes sure do suck.

Trying to solve black issues as a white person is pretty condescending, wouldn't you agree?



I'm baffled by how shortsighted this statement is. Considering whites are the majority, it's probably more effective to try and get them on your side in trying to fix racial injustice rather than pushing them away strictly for their race. Not only is it shortsighted but it's ironic as hell.

EDIT:

sudo459 said:

The idiotic solutions that are being thought up, ie:
"... reparations for slavery..." https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/black-lives-matter-answers-the-question-what-are-your-demands/

One of the users commenting on that article summed it up rather aptly:

Thus, in the elite corporate world, racial conflict between poor whites, blacks and Latinos is deliberately encouraged, since if the general population is at war with itself, it will never be able to coordinate together to oppose the agenda of the masters of the prison complex. As part of this strategy, the corporate media seeks out and amplifies the most ignorant, violent and racist voices they can find, regardless of the race of the speaker.

This is not an accident; this is very deliberate propaganda-based thinking, aimed at undermining democracy and maintaining elite control over the population.

Share this post


Link to post

So, what is the goal of the BLM movement?

If you say "Black Lives Matter" to someone that appreciates black people, the response is "duh".

If you say "Black Lives Matter" to someone that does not like black people, you're not going to change their view.

So, that's not it. Is the goal to make a police officer hesitate to defend himself, if the person he's interacting with is black? That's a pretty dangerous game. The police have to worry about getting hurt everyday. They become paranoid, and rightly so.

There is a factor of intimidation. Mixed race relations tend to breed intimidation and fear, on both sides. I imagine this comes into play in the majority of cases. However, everyone knows this, so, when confronted by a policeman of a different race (or not), knowing you might be causing fear and intimidation, the proper course of action is to stop, put your hands in the air, and be as non-intimidating and non-threatening as possible. And if you have a weapon, announce loudly that you are carrying, and where the weapon is, and generally be as cordial and courteous and helpful as possible.

But, does that happen? Or is the suspect talking trash, arms swinging, moving erratic and sketchy, with a piece tucked away? That's what get people shot the most.

A "Black Lives Matter" campaign is inherently racist - it's built right into the name, and it promotes racism and division, solves nothing, and simply worsens problems for everyone.

I cannot understand why this is not blatantly obvious. In fact, I'm starting to believe that the goal is actually to make things worse - to stir the pot, and create as much hate, division, and "-ism" as possible. Confusion and chaos are the only possible final outcome. It's a crying shame.

Share this post


Link to post
kb1 said:

So, what is the goal of the BLM movement?


Mostly reasonable criminal justice reform. They have some economic liberation stuff that's mostly pie in the sky too but it's mostly about cops and laws. There is nothing inherently racist about the movement. Divisive? Yeah. Being divisive isn't being racist. There certainly are racists in the movement but there are racists in every movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Tarnsman said:

...There is nothing inherently racist about the movement...

Then I suggest that the movement needs a new name - a name that doesn't exclude all but one race. I mean, honestly, it's difficult to entertain any other interpretation, for me.

Tarnsman said:

Divisive? Yeah. Being divisive isn't being racist.

Unless that which you divide upon, is race, right?

I wish these things would just go away, so we can all just be people. Why do groups need to continue to prolong the hate?

Share this post


Link to post
Tarnsman said:

Mostly reasonable criminal justice reform. They have some economic liberation stuff that's mostly pie in the sky too but it's mostly about cops and laws. There is nothing inherently racist about the movement.

I'd have to agree with kb1 in that something as simple as a more inclusive name change would greatly improve the chances of actually getting any of the reasonable proposals through. It sounds dumb, but well, people are dumb.

Share this post


Link to post
Doomkid said:

I'd have to agree with kb1 in that something as simple as a more inclusive name change would greatly improve the chances of actually getting any of the reasonable proposals through. It sounds dumb, but well, people are dumb.


I don't think so.

The debate over the name is a distraction. If the name was changed to add the implicit "Black Lives Matter Too", do you think that things would suddenly be sunshine and rainbows? Or do you think people would find some other distraction to argue over?

Talking about racism is inherantly incredibly uncomfortable, and a simple name change wouldn't do anything to change that.

Share this post


Link to post
AlexMax said:

The debate over the name is a distraction. If the name was changed to add the implicit "Black Lives Matter Too", do you think that things would suddenly be sunshine and rainbows? Or do you think people would find some other distraction to argue over?

Of course it wouldn't be sunshine and rainbows, but #alllivesmatter would also probably have never happened.

I'm not saying it would fix everything and you're probably right that it's too late anyway, but if this had been handled just slightly different over the last few years, the positive aspects might be making more headway.

Really, I'd just like to know what people think could be done to even have a hope reaching a compromise. America is such a large population that's it's really no surprise it's so divisive, but there must be some way for people to see past the distraction and get focused on what really needs to change on the legislative side of things.

Share this post


Link to post
AlexMax said:

Talking about racism is inherantly incredibly uncomfortable, and a simple name change wouldn't do anything to change that.


I think this is the problem right here. First of all, I don't think it's entirely a racial issue and I'm not alone, yet I would still agree with everything the BLM wants to achieve, policy-wise. The problem is, that such a name is almost certainly going to generate comments like you've seen from people like Membrain, who insist white people are not affected at all.

kb1 said:

Unless that which you divide upon, is race, right?

I feel like you could make the same argument for the civil rights movement of the 60's. I'm sure you could find some technicalities in both movements to have a reason. But ultimately its harmful. Certainly you should call out specific instances of racism in the movement, as you should everywhere, but calling BLM racist as a whole is just driving an even bigger wedge between us. We share common ground. Like Tarnsman said, let's focus on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Doomkid said:

Really, I'd just like to know what people think could be done to even have a hope reaching a compromise. America is such a large population that's it's really no surprise it's so divisive, but there must be some way for people to see past the distraction and get focused on what really needs to change on the legislative side of things.


Arguing in good faith and a large dose of empathy.

Note that this is largely mutually exclusive to arguing over the internet. It's easier and more satifying to try and "win" an argument than try to come to a genuine mutual understanding. I certainly don't claim to be a paragon in this department.

Share this post


Link to post
kb1 said:

Unless that which you divide upon, is race, right?


No. The name debate is such a effective distraction that people have to endlessly combat and why I think that it's a battle worth conceding but by the same token a name doesn't make something racist. Their platform is what you need to judge it by. I mean if their name was "fuck white people" that wouldn't be inherently racist, they could say it's intentionally provocative to make people pay attention. I think it'd be a failure but there is a legit argument to raising awareness through provocation.

AlexMax said:

I don't think so.

The debate over the name is a distraction.


It's a distraction you can help minimize. Like if the name was say "All lives matter" or "Our lives matter" it'd be much harder for someone to come up with one of those "excuse me sir but X" responses that seem so effective nowadays. Like as great as it would be to never have to deal with that, it is the reality of what we live in.

Share this post


Link to post

The biggest issue with BLM isn't the name, it is the philosophy in general... who are they protesting to? Is it whites? They clearly don't care. The government? The government goes with who ever has the most money (ie. rich people), rich people actively profit off of the treatment of the black community, be it prisons, consumerism, entertainment, body organs, and what have you. The police? The police murder them without any reason and everyone is fine with that. Latinos don't care, latinos and blacks are rivals on many fronts, be it jobs, space, rights, etc and what have you. Asians are the most racist people on earth, good luck getting them to care. Seriously, asians don't like anybody.

So, who are they trying to reach? What is the purpose of the movement? Who are they yelling at? They don't have an answer to these questions. None of these groups they could petition to have any incentive what so ever to change their ways or to help black people, none. What do black people have in exchange for the effort required to change society so drastically? How can they incentivize those changes? How can they recoup the loss in profit that those who do profit would lose from those changes? The elite aren't going to go from a great situation (for them) to an okay one just because some people are sad about it.

Share this post


Link to post

They're raising awareness very successfully and getting international media coverage as a result. And as a result it's on the political agenda much more than it would be otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Mechazawa said:

The biggest issue with BLM isn't the name, it is the philosophy in general... who are they protesting to? Is it whites? They clearly don't care. The government? The government goes with who ever has the most money (ie. rich people), rich people actively profit off of the treatment of the black community, be it prisons, consumerism, entertainment, body organs, and what have you. The police? The police murder them without any reason and everyone is fine with that.



If none of this makes any sense, then who should they adress? You got any clues? All I hear you say is stuff that does not work, while it is abundantly clear that you're talking out of your ass. If you were at least semi-intelligent, you'd have something to show here. The fact that you're not even interested in actually discussing the topic at hand, and stick to "all that does not change anything, duh" clearly shows that you're the one who does not care at all.

Mechazawa said:

Latinos don't care, latinos and blacks are rivals on many fronts, be it jobs, space, rights, etc and what have you.



And whose fault is that? As a matter of fact, you might actually be right for once. As long as these people feel like they have a conflict of interest, which in fact they don't, they won't stand together as they should.

Mechazawa said:

Asians are the most racist people on earth, good luck getting them to care. Seriously, asians don't like anybody.


I have Asian roots, and I like a lot of people here, eventhough I don't necessarily agree with them. Also, I do care about others, believe or not. But rest assured, for generalizing "us" in a way that is highly condescending and dismissive, I sure as shit don't like you!

Mechazawa said:

So, who are they trying to reach? What is the purpose of the movement? Who are they yelling at? They don't have an answer to these questions.


Even a cursory search makes these things perfectly clear, the problem with you is that you can't even be arsed to spend 2 minutes of your lifetime to read a few paragraphs, which is why you rather stick to dumping your ignorant hollow shit here, instead of contributing anything at all.

Mechazawa said:

None of these groups they could petition to have any incentive what so ever to change their ways or to help black people, none. What do black people have in exchange for the effort required to change society so drastically? How can they incentivize those changes? How can they recoup the loss in profit that those who do profit would lose from those changes? The elite aren't going to go from a great situation (for them) to an okay one just because some people are sad about it.


Of course these groups have an incentive to change things. If you constantly have people getting shot, arrested and whatnot, there is a lot of money on the line. Who do you think is paying taxes which are also being used to fund cops, prisons and courts? Everybody does, so everybody carries the weight of this prison system that has been established over decades. You're simply living the illusion that the elites are godlike beings, when in fact the everyday average person makes the difference. Your everyday working class person makes up way over 90% of the population, the problem is that the 90% are divided, and for that matter they're weaker than they should be. People need to get together, and move together. Of course people with that mind-set of yours will have a hard time understanding this simple fact, because you like to be the poor helpless little victim of the "elites", as has been evidenced multiple times by now.

Share this post


Link to post
Mechazawa said:

So, who are they trying to reach? What is the purpose of the movement? Who are they yelling at? They don't have an answer to these questions.

Uh, yes they do.

They have some very clear goals if you bother to do the most basic research beyond pontificating about the name.

Share this post


Link to post
Mechazawa said:

What is the purpose of the movement? Who are they yelling at? They don't have an answer to these questions.


They've stated it numerous times and there are various BLM associated websites that have clearly laid out goals ranging from criminal justice reform to economic stuff to anti-discrimination laws. Even if you disagree with those goals they are clearly stated.

Share this post


Link to post

Of courses the goals are stated. How did you people not even see the point of what I said? The point of what I said is that they are talking to walls. There is no actual ally to the BLM movement, or the black community in general. Every possible group out there is an adversary, whites are an adversary, the government is an adversary, big business is an adversary, other minority groups are an adversary. What incentive do any of these groups have to change? Seriously, list them.

The elites are relevant when it comes to the government because the government gets over 51% of *all* of its revenue from the top 3% in society. People who make below 50k a year (which is 61% of the population) only contribute to 6% of the governments revenue. Aka, the government has no reason what so ever to care what "the common man" wants. They are a nonfactor with 0 power when it comes to the governmental side of things, which includes the police. The government is ran like a corporation, the more you contribute to it, the more your words matter. So any realistic change in the government is going to require a lot of voices from that upper echelon of society.

That upper echelon that runs the sports teams, the entertainment industry, the prison system, the medical industry, and all of the other industries that make a profit off of the current situation. That is why the elite matters and why the government matters.

As for whites, whites are the stated perpetrators of the oppression that BLM and the black community face. If simply asking them to not act they way they do towards blacks was good enough then there wouldn't be a need for protesting in the first place. If you want whites to change, what incentive do you offer?

I said what I said about asians because inter-asian racism is some of the worst type of racism I have seen, whether talking about east asians or south asians that still have a caste system. The Chinese look way down on Japanese and Koreans, and Japanese and Koreans look way down on Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, etc. And these groups certainly don't like blacks or brown people. They are often as bad as whites. (which is funny since the Chinese are one of the groups that white supremacists do like). South asians still have a fucking caste system.

Latinos and blacks in competition isn't a myth, of course they are competing. There are not enough jobs that they typically fulfill to go around for all of them to work. Blacks and latinos are mostly in the labor and service industries, both of which are shrinking. It is certainly a competition.

So, the question arises still. What incentive do any of these groups have to change their behaviors? Because "its the human/nice thing to do" is not an incentive. Any pitch (and yes, this is a pitch) you give has to have an incentive for people to engage in it. What benefit do others get for helping the black community? How is it better than the benefit they get by not helping? If I wanted to change a doomworld policy and I present my case, I am going to have to spell out why my change would be better for doomworld, wouldn't I? Same concept. What does doomwrold get as a benefit by implementing my proposed change?

Share this post


Link to post
Mechazawa said:

What incentive do any of these groups have to change? Seriously, list them.

They're making an incentive by forming a protest movement to encourage a public debate and call for change. This is the way you effect political change. And it's obviously having an effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Mechazawa said:

Of courses the goals are stated. How did you people not even see the point of what I said? The point of what I said is that they are talking to walls. There is no actual ally to the BLM movement, or the black community in general. Every possible group out there is an adversary, whites are an adversary, the government is an adversary, big business is an adversary, other minority groups are an adversary. What incentive do any of these groups have to change? Seriously, list them.


If not having to constantly pay for funerals, prisons and whatnot, isn't good enough from a rational point of view, how about the fact that nobody likes to constantly read about people getting shot, when there's a chance to be next in line? What about the idea of having a generally better "climate", which encourages people to spend some of their money, and makes them work better, because happy people do stuff better than unhappy ones. Besides, you're just trying to wriggle your head out the noose here, because you said: "THEY don't have an answer to these questions". Turns out THEY DO have an answer.

Mechazawa said:

The elites are relevant when it comes to the government because the government gets over 51% of *all* of its revenue from the top 3% in society. People who make below 50k a year (which is 61% of the population) only contribute to 6% of the governments revenue. Aka, the government has no reason what so ever to care what "the common man" wants. They are a nonfactor with 0 power when it comes to the governmental side of things, which includes the police. The government is ran like a corporation, the more you contribute to it, the more your words matter. So any realistic change in the government is going to require a lot of voices from that upper echelon of society.


Mind providing a link to underline these numbers? Because if you think that you can somehow reverse-calculate these numbers by way of money banked or taxes paid, you'll have a hard time selling that. Tax wise there are considerable differences between the rich and the poor. And just to get this out the way: The elites are nothing without the average person, as in the elites depend on normal people to a considerable extent.

Mechazawa said:

That upper echelon that runs the sports teams, the entertainment industry, the prison system, the medical industry, and all of the other industries that make a profit off of the current situation. That is why the elite matters and why the government matters.


Right, they run things which require normal people as a consumer base to be worth anything at all. So, normal people matter.

Mechazawa said:

As for whites, whites are the stated perpetrators of the oppression that BLM and the black community face. If simply asking them to not act they way they do towards blacks was good enough then there wouldn't be a need for protesting in the first place. If you want whites to change, what incentive do you offer?


How many more times do I need to repeat what I said twice already? Having a fair playing field, with decent standards for everyone is in the interest of all involved, which includes white people, let alone that you ignore that white people are being shot by cops as well. If staying alive isn't good enough for you, I don't know what else is.

Mechazawa said:

I said what I said about asians because inter-asian racism is some of the worst type of racism I have seen, whether talking about east asians or south asians that still have a caste system. The Chinese look way down on Japanese and Koreans, and Japanese and Koreans look way down on Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, etc. And these groups certainly don't like blacks or brown people. They are often as bad as whites. (which is funny since the Chinese are one of the groups that white supremacists do like). South asians still have a fucking caste system.


Hate to break it to you, but aside of the caste system, it's not nearly as bad as you describe it, at least not from my own experience. I have first hand experience since I'm an "Asian hybrid" from an ethical perspective, just sayin'. Part japanese, part indian, mind you. The reason supremacists like China is rooted in China's political stance as well as the fact that they are rapidly catching up to the "post-modern-era" the western world appreciates so much.

Mechazawa said:

Latinos and blacks in competition isn't a myth, of course they are competing. There are not enough jobs that they typically fulfill to go around for all of them to work. Blacks and latinos are mostly in the labor and service industries, both of which are shrinking. It is certainly a competition.


I don't know who said it was a myth, but it sure as shit wasn't me. The fact that these minorities are competing against one another is part of the reason that these minorities are also seperated in terms of movements, THAT is the actual problem here. If these two groups would work together, as they should, they would be able to create a lot more pressure where it is really needed.

Mechazawa said:

So, the question arises still. What incentive do any of these groups have to change their behaviors? Because "its the human/nice thing to do" is not an incentive. Any pitch (and yes, this is a pitch) you give has to have an incentive for people to engage in it. What benefit do others get for helping the black community? How is it better than the benefit they get by not helping? If I wanted to change a doomworld policy and I present my case, I am going to have to spell out why my change would be better for doomworld, wouldn't I? Same concept. What does doomwrold get as a benefit by implementing my proposed change?


I've said my piece already, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. A society in which there are Ghettos, huge class/race divides and whatnot will not prosper the way it could. Solving these issues is in everybody's interest, it is economically relevant. It really is that simple. Not that an accelerationist like you would be able to grasp these things. I can comfortably bet anything I want that you'll dismiss anything of what I said, and thus you'll keep claiming there's no incentive for anyone to change anything. Don't even try to tell me that, if I was right, these changes would have been made a long time ago, because that's not why nothing happens. The reason nothing happens is because people just don't give a shit as long as something works *for them*. People don't repair what isn't broken *for them*, that's why there is next to no progress. The elite does not change things unless their status is endangered, eventhough they could make even more money if the divide wasn't so obnoxious.

Share this post


Link to post

Right, so nobody answered the question. Topic done for me.

Sure Bowb, your wall of text is equivalent to "they have incentive because its the nice thing to do". Incentive, monetary or social/political power incentive. How do I get more powerful by helping you? That is what incentive means. In the social hierarchy, how does my status get better by helping you? How do I make money off you by treating you better than I currently do. Etc.. real incentive, not just "its pleasant to do". This is how the world works, nobody does anything because of flowers and rainbows.

I don't know what dichotomy you are trying to project here by this "common man" argument you have. The common man is racist white people. They have a benefit to be racist. It is "the common man" that BLM is protesting against. "The common man" is the problem with which BLM is addressing, and they (the common man) have no incentive to change. Who else is there? Is there some other massive body of "the common man" who will come to the aid of black people? What group of people who have significant power and incentive to change or to help is there?

fraggle, political debates and commentary around election time is as staged as an opera. They do not represent real change. Because something is "talked" about doesn't mean its changed. Actually, talking about it is preferable because it means people are not acting on it (ie, actually doing something useful) The powers that be would love for you to talk about it because it means you are not doing anything about it. At what point in American history has "talking" (and talking alone) lead to anything productive? That is a rhetorical question.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×