Red Cross Changes

[joe-ilya]

Not to mention switzerland uses that red cross on their flag, oh wait, it's white.

[Gez]

joe-ilya said:

Not to mention switzerland uses that red cross on their flag, oh wait, it's white.

The Red Cross organization was created by a Swiss man, Henri Dunant, who used his country's flag with the colors inverted. (Dunant is also largely responsible for the Geneva Convention.)

[ZeroTheEro]

Would the Red Crescent is subjected to the same issue with the Red Cross by the by?

[Gez]

It is (as well as the Red Lion and Sun, if you want an obscure one) but the crescent is a lot harder to convincingly render in low-res pixel art than a plus sign. People would think it's the letter C instead.

[Empyre]

How about white on white with a red outline?

[Maes]

ZeroTheEro said:

Would the Red Crescent is subjected to the same issue with the Red Cross by the by?

Yes, but for one it would be very hard to argue with Muslims that their symbol has been copyrighted: since it has been bestowed upon Man by Allah (may Glory be unto his Name) the Magnificent and Merciful in His Infinite Wisdom, and no man can claim it as his own. Plus, the more it is seen around, the more powerful the One True Faith in Allah (may Glory be unto his Name) and his Prophet Muhammad (may Peace be upon him) will spread.

[Technician]

Ironically the star and crescent was a Turkish pagan symbol that was kind of co-opted.

[GreyGhost]

Assuming no-one here is worried about being excommunicated and burning in hell for eternity, how about stretching the foot of the cross to turn it into a crucifix?

Heh - a little research suggests scalliano's sprite recolour is heading in the right direction.

[Rathori]

I'm no expert on symbols that offend people, but wouldn't these work:



This isn't technically the Red Cross anymore, and it doesn't stray too far from original sprites.

[Maes]

They could be interpreted as either the flag of Georgia:



or a variant of the Serbian Cross flag:



While that would certainly please Georgian and Serbian Doomers (and even some Greek nationalist Doomers, due to the Byzantine roots of that symbol), it might leave others indifferent or less than happy (e.g. Croatians) ;-)

Wow, it's surprisingly hard to find a symbol that's not already taken, copyrighted or "loaded" O_o

[scalliano]

GreyGhost said:

Heh - a little research suggests scalliano's sprite recolour is heading in the right direction.

Exactly what I was going for. All the first aid kits at my workplace are white-on-green.

[ZeroTheEro]

Maes said:

Yes, but for one it would be very hard to argue with Muslims that their symbol has been copyrighted: since it has been bestowed upon Man by Allah (may Glory be unto his Name) the Magnificent and Merciful in His Infinite Wisdom, and no man can claim it as his own. Plus, the more it is seen around, the more powerful the One True Faith in Allah (may Glory be unto his Name) and his Prophet Muhammad (may Peace be upon him) will spread.

I regret my question.

[fraggle]

ZeroTheEro said:

Would the Red Crescent is subjected to the same issue with the Red Cross by the by?

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/graphics/redcres

[Koko Ricky]

I think trying to copyright an abstract symbol that has been used in so many contexts, and especially being interested in a video game barely referencing it, seems like a waste of fucking time. It shouldn't matter when you are dealing with literally 10 pixels.

[Reisal]

Technician said:

They should have just sourced the project out to one of the forum members and received a much better job. I guess the BFG was a quick gimmick to raise interest in Doom 2016, though.

(Red on white health item sprites)

What would the Berserk pack be colored like if it's close to its color?

[Gez]

GoatLord said:

I think trying to copyright an abstract symbol that has been used in so many contexts, and especially being interested in a video game barely referencing it, seems like a waste of fucking time. It shouldn't matter when you are dealing with literally 10 pixels.

It's not a copyright. It's closer in principle to a trademark, though it is still something different.

[YukiHerz]

What about using a heart? they are easy to draw even at small resolutions.

[Gez]

It has been suggested before:

axdoom1 said:

Why not a heart?

And maybe a syringe on the berzerk pack.

(from Freedoom thread)

[fraggle]

GoatLord said:

I think trying to copyright an abstract symbol that has been used in so many contexts, and especially being interested in a video game barely referencing it, seems like a waste of fucking time. It shouldn't matter when you are dealing with literally 10 pixels.

I've stated this repeatedly in this thread (read my earlier comments), but to reiterate again: this isn't a copyright, it isn't a trademark either. It's a symbol of battlefield neutrality that is explicitly protected by long-standing international treaties.

kb1 said:

I understand. But, still, it's use in games was *favorable*. In other words, things with the red cross on them were "nice" things.

Try arguing that in a court room or trying to convince a lawyer. "Favorable" is entirely subjective and isn't going to count for much. id are just doing the thing that's legally safest for them.

joe-ilya said:

So that's why the red team medics in TF2 can use red crosses on their clothing and healing particles.

I'm not convinced that's true - see my previous comment. The TF2 medics aren't strictly "non-combatants". Even if they were I'm surprised the Valve lawyers cleared using the red cross symbol.

[LogicDeLuxe]

I wonder, was there ever a law suit won by the red cross, or are they just threatening? A judge certainly has to see that actually no harm is done to the red cross organization just by displaying a red cross. It is free advertisement at best.
That organization is active around the world, so it isn't far fetched that they also would on mars etc., once there are human facilities.
Or just in case the red cross would insist on their neutrality, would they agree with the usage in Doom, if monsters could be healed by them too?

I also wonder, is the white on green cross first aid symbol used outside Europe as well?

[Doomkid]

For those who like the heart option:





For those who like the green cross:

[fraggle]

LogicDeLuxe said:

I wonder, was there ever a law suit won by the red cross, or are they just threatening?

Neither. The Red Cross of Canada wrote an article asking game developers to stop misusing the red cross and some companies, including id, have voluntarily complied.

LogicDeLuxe said:

A judge certainly has to see that actually no harm is done to the red cross organization just by displaying a red cross. It is free advertisement at best.

This is a dubious claim at best. The red cross symbol is an international symbol of neutrality used to identify non-combatants on the battlefield. It's hard to see how that meaning is promoted by associating it with violent video games.

[Maes]

fraggle said:

The red cross symbol is an international symbol of neutrality used to identify non-combatants on the battlefield. It's hard to see how that meaning is promoted by associating it with violent video games.

Well, the medikits could have been left by the Red Cross on Doom's battlefields, in order to be used by everyone who needs them. In the case of Deathmatches, this is certainly true. Sure, there might be a bloody fragfest going on, too dangerous for actual medics or nurses to operate there, but, hey, the medikits and stimpacks are left there for everyone who needs them, without taking sides ;-)

Now in the case of players vs monsters...I can see how things could be perceived as more biased. Poor monsters can't use them :-/

[Rathori]

fraggle said:

It's hard to see how that meaning is promoted by associating it with violent video games.

To be honest, I have hard time imagining people who saw a medkit in a video game and thought of Red Cross Association having anything to do with it, or, for that matter, of anything other than "ooh, health!". Well, at least before Red Cross decided to make a fuss of it.

[Gez]

Besides I think the question of whether seeing a medikit with a red cross on it in a video game will associate it with the Red Cross isn't really important. Wouldn't it rather be a question of whether you'll come to associate the real Red Cross with video game medikits? I think the chance of someone repeatedly bumping into a Red-Crossed medic so as to pick up some health IRL is exceedingly low...

[kb1]

fraggle said:

...Try arguing that in a court room or trying to convince a lawyer. "Favorable" is entirely subjective and isn't going to count for much. id are just doing the thing that's legally safest for them...

Oh, I know, I just find it a bit silly of a thing to worry about, never mind me.

[Tracer]

Could always just write "MED" on the kit.

[VGamingJunkie]

That'd be hard to do with such limited pixels, how about just an M?

[scifista42]

[VGamingJunkie]

Okay, if you just want to take over the entirety of that space with no room for the latches and even going over the line. xD