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NightmareZer0

Things that bother you about Doom

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TendaMonsta said:

* The backpack. For some reason I just don't like the fact that it boosts how much ammo you can hold.

But... it's the only logical thing for it to do.

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Da Werecat said:

I don't see a contradiction.


Good. That's because I wasn't trying to contradict you. The building in the photograph would be Id's former headquarters.

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Rathori said:

But... it's the only logical thing for it to do.

Just giving you ammo of several different types could work too. That said, I'm fine with the backpack as is.

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scifista42 said:

Just giving you ammo of several different types could work too. That said, I'm fine with the backpack as is.



Perhaps Doom Guy had a backpack on to begin with (Nevermind the graphics) and this just gives him a second one to work with since it exactly doubles his storage space. Then again, it's a video game and not really meant to make logical sense.

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nxGangrel said:

Also, why are there no scientists in Doom 1? You're in a SCIENCE facility. Why are all the zombies and corpses there marines?

Possibly because the classic Doom demons were smarter than their Doom 3 and Doom 2016 incarnations and realized that zombiefied scientists and workers make lousy fighters and decided to just mutilate them, hang them from chains and crucify them as psychological warfare against any surviving Humans?
Id couldn't come up with a good civilian enemy type that wasn't a complete joke?

As for stuff that bothers me, mostly that songs like E1M2, E1M3 and E1M4 only ever played once during the entire run of the original 3 episodes (I don't care much about Episode 4), but E1M7 ("Demons on the Prey") plays in all 3 episodes - cool song, but I got a little sick of it the third time it played through a level, because it's not that cool.

Episode 4 - even for a game where story is minimal, this was an absolutely pitiful excuse for a story (revenge for Doom guy's pet rabbit), they weren't even trying here.
Levels that make me wonder where the Hell I'm supposed to be (E3 ended with you returning to Earth, but those levels don't look like Earth).

Doom 2 - kinda suffers a little from Ultimate Doom E4 syndrome when it comes to levels not looking much like anything recognizable, but they're at least slightly better (star port levels look mostly techbase, which I suppose a futuristic star port would, a few city levels have names and layouts that are vaguely city-like).

Doom 2 basically drowning you in ammunition. I don't recall ever getting close to running out of ammo during a playthrough of that game, even back then. Kinda makes the BFG feel less treasured.

The song "Between Levels" (Map04) in Doom 2. Much too cheerful and "Commander Keen" sounding for a song in a game filled with blood-thirsty demons, dark rooms, shotguns and gore. What the Hell was Bobby Prince thinking?

The Intermission screen in Doom 2 (and the one in, ugh, Episode 4 in Ultimate Doom). I really missed the base overview of the first game's intermission screen. Didn't like the Doom 2 intermission song as much either (though fitting for the stretched-flesh-skull image), because I prefer aggressive metal music to play over the intermission screen to make me feel like a badass that just cleared out the level.

The complete lack of a clear explanation for the Demons being on earth and why there was a Hell portal there. I presume the Demons stole and corrupted Human teleportation tech, but the story never really mentions it and it feels incredibly lazy. Devs, if you're not going to show me that you care about the universe you created, how can you expect me to care?

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dsm said:

Doom 2 basically drowning you in ammunition.

I'd say the same about every official Doom game.

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dsm said:

Episode 4 - even for a game where story is minimal, this was an absolutely pitiful excuse for a story (revenge for Doom guy's pet rabbit), they weren't even trying here.
Levels that make me wonder where the Hell I'm supposed to be (E3 ended with you returning to Earth, but those levels don't look like Earth).

[...]

The song "Between Levels" (Map04) in Doom 2. Much too cheerful and "Commander Keen" sounding for a song in a game filled with blood-thirsty demons, dark rooms, shotguns and gore. What the Hell was Bobby Prince thinking?

The Intermission screen in Doom 2 (and the one in, ugh, Episode 4 in Ultimate Doom). I really missed the base overview of the first game's intermission screen. Didn't like the Doom 2 intermission song as much either (though fitting for the stretched-flesh-skull image), because I prefer aggressive metal music to play over the intermission screen to make me feel like a badass that just cleared out the level.

[...]

In hindsight, I actually love how absurd the whole rabbit storyline bit is - it's goofy but endearing to me for whatever reason. I definitely agree about E4's maps not being Earth like at all though - Even Doom 2 did a better job of portraying Earth, with Map01 having grass and a river, Map13 having things that are at least recognisable as buildings - E4 didn't even attempt, it felt more like a mix of almost medieval and hell settings.

Heck, I never minded D_BETWEE, it makes for a "pumped up" track, even if it is a little happy. Good for DM maps though, to me the real culprit is D_StalksToTacoBell. Oh, and an actual map for each episode of Doom2 at the intermission would have been awesome, I assume they left that out to save time and resources, but it's a shame as those maps really gave you a good sense of progression between maps.

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Avoozl said:

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with the master levels, they were simply custom maps by the developers themselves rather than by the community.


Those were the community's though, just handpicked by id. There's some decent levels in that compilation, but most are either average or below mediocre.

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Things that bother me about Doom:

* Doom 1 is way too easy. You're never at any real risk, except when fighting the Cyberdemon. Compare with Wolf3D where two point blank gunshots are enough to kill you.

* The Spiderdemon final boss only using a chaingun and being too vulnerable to the BFG9000.

* Way too many rockets and cells in Episode 4. On my first playthrough I was scared enough of this episode not to mind the ammo excess, but now I feel they make an excellent episode easier than it should be.

* Doom 2 has too many bland looking levels (but it's no longer easy like Doom 1, which is great). Also, the late levels are too generous with megaspheres and invulnerabilities. Bosses are almost always used as jokes, and there aren't really "a lot more of them" than in Doom 1, unlike how the "Official" DOOM FAQ suggested. The only menacing boss is the Cyberdemon in MAP10, but you have the chance to escape to the exit.

* Too few new features in Doom 2, it's ridiculous. No notable visual update. I don't know of any other sequel with so little new content.

* Continued lack of features in newer commercial releases like Final Doom or Master Levels. Super lazy especially when the two Final Doom episodes retain the same secret level structure as Doom 2.

* Stupid AI bugs all over the place. Monsters get stuck on doortracks, monsters become passive when stuck on ledges (and why do they get stuck on ledges?) or spinning on top of pillars.

* Lack of patrolling monsters. Also it looks dumb how they keep using their movement animation even when standing still.

* You can shoot monsters over the corner even if they don't see you, unlike in Wolf3D.

* Other than exclusive teleporters (which is great), monsters have no advantage of triggering level events. They can't push switches or open doors the player can't.

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printz said:

* Too few new features in Doom 2, it's ridiculous. No notable visual update. I don't know of any other sequel with so little new content.

I'm personally more than OK with its 8 new monsters with unique attacks, 1 new very useful and fun to use weapon, new levels, new texture set, new story texts, several linedef actions, and a unique final boss (well, I don't like Icon of Sin, I mean it just from the "new content" standpoint).

printz said:

* Continued lack of features in newer commercial releases like Final Doom or Master Levels. Super lazy especially when the two Final Doom episodes retain the same secret level structure as Doom 2.

OK, I can agree with this, but at least it had the benefit of being able to use the same engine to play all of them.

printz said:

* You can shoot monsters over the corner even if they don't see you, unlike in Wolf3D.

Wait, what?

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printz said:

* Other than exclusive teleporters (which is great), monsters have no advantage of triggering level events. They can't push switches or open doors the player can't.


Hey now, don't forget lifts and doors! Might not be exclusive to the monster himself, but with a clever enough set up those monsters could possibly trigger every level event.

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That's quite interesting, I can imagine a mapping concept in which every action but exiting the level is done by the monsters and there are NO switches or linedefs directly triggered by the player.
It may be difficult to achieve 100 per cent kills though, unless the trigger monsters are lost souls .... :-) They could see Doomguy through cracks in the walls and move over linedefs as a result.

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printz said:

Other than exclusive teleporters (which is great), monsters have no advantage of triggering level events. They can't push switches or open doors the player can't.


That is not entirely accurate.

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printz said:

Things that bother me about Doom:

* Doom 1 is way too easy. You're never at any real risk, except when fighting the Cyberdemon. Compare with Wolf3D where two point blank gunshots are enough to kill you.

* The Spiderdemon final boss only using a chaingun and being too vulnerable to the BFG9000.

* Way too many rockets and cells in Episode 4. On my first playthrough I was scared enough of this episode not to mind the ammo excess, but now I feel they make an excellent episode easier than it should be.

* Too few new features in Doom 2, it's ridiculous. No notable visual update. I don't know of any other sequel with so little new content.

* Lack of patrolling monsters. Also it looks dumb how they keep using their movement animation even when standing still.


1. I think this could be remedied with a mini-mod that makes the monsters more aggressive and deal higher damage on par with Wolf3D enemies, pair with the claustrophobic maps of the original and it could get very intense. I'll have to work on something like that.

2. Remedied in my personal mini-mod, the Spider Mastermind packs two chainguns, a BFG, cloaks itself when on the move and has twice as much health as a Cyberdemon.

3. I figure the ammo was handled this way because they want you to have a blast-fest. Which is nice, but I'd like to tackle this in a mod and greatly reduce the amount of ammo you receive in each pickup in addition to less max ammo you can carry, this would add a more survival-esque edge to Doom that I think suits the original nicely. Always liked how Wolf3D handled ammo and that would be my inspiration.

4. Yeah, it's practically Spear of Destiny: Doom Edition. Doom 64 is more of a proper full-fledged sequel than Doom II IMHO.

5. Patrolling enemies would've been neat to see but I guess id didn't find it necessary this time around like in Wolf3D. The jogging-in-place thing can be easily fixed though by removing the second frame of their idle stance.

And a personal nitpick of mine when it comes to Doom, especially the original one, is the lack of static decorative objects. Wolf3D has a strong emphasis on these to make up for the lack of unique geometry, but Doom's strength is its diverse architecture so decorative thingamajigs were of lesser importance. Still, those chairs, tables and plants would've livened up the techbase theme in D1 nicely.

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Cyanosis said:

Doom 64 is more of a proper full-fledged sequel than Doom II IMHO.

It has less functional additions though.

Cyanosis said:

Still, those chairs, tables and plants would've livened up the techbase theme in D1 nicely.

They almost added this kind of stuff, but then decided to remove it, apparently. There's a decent chair sprite among the leftover resources, and the maps started by Tom Hall originally had a lot of realistic touches, like locker rooms.

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Hoodie said:

The community seemingly just saying the same things over and over but everytime they say it like the first time is what I hate most about doom.

I guess a little redundancy is normal in such old community with just a few topics...

Old people tent to tell the old stories again and again and again...:-)

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Doomkid said:

In hindsight, I actually love how absurd the whole rabbit storyline bit is - it's goofy but endearing to me for whatever reason.

I would've laughed my ass off had it been a custom wad, but it was an official release which made it come across as if the devs were laughing at our expense. Like, "Those morons will eat anything we throw at them, long as it has the name "Doom" on it".

Heck, I never minded D_BETWEE, it makes for a "pumped up" track, even if it is a little happy. Good for DM maps though, to me the real culprit is D_StalksToTacoBell.

Yeah, I didn't like "Healer stalks" too much either, but it at least had a "sneaky atmosphere" to it that made some moments feel slightly tense. Not a good Doom song though.

printz said:
* Continued lack of features in newer commercial releases like Final Doom or Master Levels. Super lazy especially when the two Final Doom episodes retain the same secret level structure as Doom 2.

Agreed. Didn't bother purchasing Final Doom until I bought the Doom Collector's Edition, because my old floppy discs stopped working. Wasn't a fan of buying additional levels for the same game, unless it included new features.

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dsm said:

I would've laughed my ass off had it been a custom wad, but it was an official release which made it come across as if the devs were laughing at our expense. Like, "Those morons will eat anything we throw at them, long as it has the name "Doom" on it".

My interpretation of E4's setting is a Hell's forward base on Earth. Doomguy got tricked into thinking that slaying the Spider Mastermind gave him a ticket home. Well, he got it... technically. He would expect that Earth was free of Hellspawn, but in fact demons started their invasion there when Doomguy was busy fighting his way to the instigator of Phobos and Deimos attack. When he takes this backdoor teleport to Earth, he finds himself in the heart of the base, which demons bulit as their foothold on Earth (like they were buliding Tower of Babel for Cyberdemon). When you to maange to kill the commander of that base in E4M8, Doomguy finally escapes it and heads to the closest city, but he quickly notices that demons are loose on Earth. He proceeds to nearby UAC starport, and there is where Doom 2 starts...

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I think they were just trying to be cute and saying "See? That rabbit wasn't just random gore, it was crucial to the plot!" or something. Really, if you think about it, Thy Flesh Consumed is unnecessary, the plot would make perfect sense without it if you just place Doom II directly after Inferno. Thy Flesh Consumed didn't really add anything vital. Not saying it isn't nice to have another episode but it's not like there was some huge plot gap that needed to be filled.

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I wish the last two episodes of Doom had more unique songs. IIRC, only E3M2 and E3M8 have unique songs, and Episode 4 uses only recycled songs.

I would imagine a lot of this was due to space limitations, but I recall Romero put out an archive once with lots of deleted/unused Doom music, and some of that could have been used in the two episodes.

And on the subject of songs, I still don't like that E2M9 doesn't use "Hiding the Secrets" like the other three hidden maps. That song only played on the secret maps, that was kind of the point. Fortress of Mystery not using the song made it feel out-of-place, and not in a good way.

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drygnfyre said:

I would imagine a lot of this was due to space limitations, but I recall Romero put out an archive once with lots of deleted/unused Doom music, and some of that could have been used in the two episodes.


No way was it a space limitation issue, as MIDIs only take up a few kilobytes. It was a cash-grab, an attempt to maintain interest in Doom while id's next IP was being developed. Thankfully, it's not completely shameless, as E4 (despite its flaws) is an enjoyable and memorable mapset.

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The players chaingun makes a sped up pew pew pew sound while the Commando's chaingun has a sped up shotgun firing sound, as well as the Spider Mastermind. It bothers me that the player doesn't have the same firing sound.

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GoatLord said:

No way was it a space limitation issue, as MIDIs only take up a few kilobytes. It was a cash-grab, an attempt to maintain interest in Doom while id's next IP was being developed. Thankfully, it's not completely shameless, as E4 (despite its flaws) is an enjoyable and memorable mapset.

I agree with that. I like the gameplay of E4, just was hoping for entirely different music. E4M8 using the same music from E1M7 and E2M5 seemed like a big letdown, too.

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Piper Maru said:

The players chaingun makes a sped up pew pew pew sound while the Commando's chaingun has a sped up shotgun firing sound, as well as the Spider Mastermind. It bothers me that the player doesn't have the same firing sound.



I can only guess it was done to make the Mastermind's chaingun sound meatier. As for the Commando's, they should have used the pistol sound since it's literally the same chaingun you use.

Cyanosis said:

Those were the community's though, just handpicked by id. There's some decent levels in that compilation, but most are either average or below mediocre.


To be fair, Final Doom wasn't too much better. Not to say they were bad by any means but most of the levels in both Plutonia and TNT were pretty forgettable. The ones that exploit Vanilla bugs to get certain effects like insta-death teleportation and invisible bridges were really cool, though.

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I hate how that in order to win the game I must kill John Romero.

I like John Romero.

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The lack of unique pain sounds and other sfx shared between monsters. Anyone know a good monster sounds mod?

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I'm bothered that E4 was so rushed that it didn't receive a proper intermission screen. Would have been neat to see a bird's eye view of the general area where it took place. Instead we got just a recolor of the Doom 2 intermission screen (or Doom95 just shows the KDitD intermission screen).

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rileymartin said:

The lack of unique pain sounds and other sfx shared between monsters. Anyone know a good monster sounds mod?

This one is supposed to fix the aforementioned problem, but I haven't tried it myself.

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