Memory limit

[Blastfrog]

Memory should be calculated so the game uses no more than 16MB of general memory in vanilla. This is a good target, as this allows it to be played on a wide variety of platforms, including the Dreamcast.

[Linguica]

That is an utterly silly self-imposed restriction when you can buy a $9 general computer with 512 megs of RAM.

[Voros]

Blastfrog said:

Memory should be calculated so the game uses no more than 16MB of general memory in vanilla. This is a good target, as this allows it to be played on a wide variety of platforms, including the Dreamcast.

Dreamcast cant handle over 16 MB? Huh.

if you ask me, as long as there are no flashy/fancy effects (like ZDoom stuff eg particles, opengl lighting, etc -which obviously isnt in any Freedoom map, as theyre all mostly Boom maps-) a limit is not required.

Unless you want to play on a java phone or some old ass computer/device

[Jon]

I think it's dangerous to add a restriction like that for some super-niche purpose like Dreamcast ports, etc., when Freedoom already suffers from a lack of contributors and focus.

[Voros]

Jon said:

Freedoom already suffers from a lack of contributors and focus.

Well it is mostly done, at least in terms of assets.

What do you mean by lack of focus?

[Gez]

I think Freedoom ought to be as big as it needs to be in order to develop its own identity while retaining Doom PWAD compatibility; which means it requires to have basically two different texture sets.

But on the other hand, given how it was decided that Freedoom would go for vanilla compatibility instead of the Boom baseline that had been the minimal target, so what's one more pointless restriction? You might as well decide to target the Jaguar port, or why not the original Game Boy. Maybe the Amstrad CPC464, too!

[Voros]

Gez said:

But on the other hand, given how it was decided that Freedoom would go for vanilla compatibility instead of the Boom baseline that had been the minimal target, so what's one more pointless restriction? You might as well decide to target the Jaguar port, or why not the original Game Boy. Maybe the Amstrad CPC464, too!

Tbh, even I'm not feeling that "it will be vanilla when it's 1.0" decision.
Boom offers better, more diverse mapping compared to vanilla. And what would be the point for it to be vanilla? Especially in 20XX? Nothing but a dumbed down version of the current Freedoom.

Originally, i thought it was an amazing goal. Now, not so much.

Most PWADs that replace maps are in Boom format these days, with few rare vanilla maps. SO, technically, you would still end up using a sourceport to play these PWADs.

Its not the '90s anymore.

And its not hard downloading and using a sourceport. In fact it's miles easier.

STAY BOOM, FREEDOOM

[Da Werecat]

Full compatibility with every engine seemed like a good idea to me as well, but, seeing how the project was struggling even in its Boom days, I don't think it can afford any more limitations.

[Death Egg]

How many maps need to be made at this point for vanilla?

[Voros]

Death Egg said:

How many maps need to be made at this point for vanilla?

More than 60

[raymoohawk]

its freedoom not freeboom

and all maps need replacement anyway

[Blastfrog]

I personally find it important to support legacy platforms to an extent. 16MB already cuts off many platforms, but would allow people to run it on many legacy systems.

Perhaps the sounds in the IWAD should be resampled to 11025khz for various reasons. Firstly to support any engine that runs sounds from a fixed rate and secondly to save memory in the 16MB limit.

Honestly I wish FreeDM would be cut from the project and released as a doom2.wad compatible PWAD. It's extraneous, most of the maps aren't that great and it takes focus away from the campaign maps which are largely even worse.

I also think that recycling maps from existing PWADs with permission isn't a bad thing, and should be considered. I know it's more ideal to have original content but let's be honest, most of the map submissions direct to Freedoom aren't very fun to play. Why not go with proven assets that still come from the community to build a better Freedoom?

[Voros]

Blastfrog said:

I also think that recycling maps from existing PWADs with permission isn't a bad thing, and should be considered. I know it's more ideal to have original content but let's be honest, most of the map submissions direct to Freedoom aren't very fun to play. Why not go with proven assets that still come from the community to build a better Freedoom?

I find the maps fun to play.

Plus it gives Freedoom a whole new identity.

Imagine if Freedoom only consisted of collected maps from various WADs.
Doomers will most likely recognise them in game, and come to the conclusion that Freedoom is a mashup of well known levels. But if it has completely fresh maps, then its a whole new adventure. That's what players want.

Yes, I know about Double Impact. But I have no problem with it as I see it as extra episode AKA optional. And there are still 26 maps of pure Freedoom against those 9 maps.

Also there is no reason to remove FreeDM. Its not doing any harm now is it?

[Death Egg]

I agree with taking FreeDM and making it a PWAD too. No reason for three IWAD's, plus the map sets can be played with Doom II that way as well.

[raymoohawk]

but freedm is the only good of the 3, seems pretty backwards to me

[Voros]

Maybe a decision can be made some time in the future, as it is a big step?

[Jon]

Voros said:

Tbh, even I'm not feeling that "it will be vanilla when it's 1.0" decision.
Boom offers better, more diverse mapping compared to vanilla. And what would be the point for it to be vanilla? Especially in 20XX? Nothing but a dumbed down version of the current Freedoom.

Originally, i thought it was an amazing goal. Now, not so much.

I think we should settle this now. I think we should abandon the goal to de-boom the project.

Blastfrog said:

Honestly I wish FreeDM would be cut from the project and released as a doom2.wad compatible PWAD. It's extraneous, most of the maps aren't that great and it takes focus away from the campaign maps which are largely even worse.

Is anyone even touching FreeDM anymore? It's basically done. If it didn't already exist and we were talking about spinning up a new FreeDM project now, I'd agree that it was a distraction. But that time has been and gone.

Blastfrog said:

I also think that recycling maps from existing PWADs with permission isn't a bad thing, and should be considered. I know it's more ideal to have original content but let's be honest, most of the map submissions direct to Freedoom aren't very fun to play. Why not go with proven assets that still come from the community to build a better Freedoom?

I don't have a problem with it either, but honestly I think the priority right now should be getting a basic story agreed on and set in stone. With that as the fixed focal point around which the project is built, we could hope to attract more mappers.

[raymoohawk]

you may want to wait until the completion of the monsters tho. several of the proposed story lines in the other thread involve the pain lord, a monster that will be replaced soon

[Death Egg]

I still fully support the idea of fully going vanilla, but in the event it gets dropped, what about just limit-removing? The Boom features prevent Freedoom in running in Doomsday and Crispy Doom properly, both major Doom source ports. With limit-removing you'll at least be able to target them.

[raymoohawk]

i'm in the vanilla or bust camp

[hex11]

Voros said:

More than 60

Well you can have my E1M3 map from here. It's done.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/h94lc2

As far as memory goes, Nintendo DSi has 16 megs, and I guess also 3DS?
My DS Lite handles Ultimate Doom fine with only 4 megs. Here's someone's video of same hardware: https://youtube.com/watch?v=YT6T1o0uyWU

I also briefly tried Freedoom 0.6 or 0.7 on there, and it seemed ok. Would probably run into problems with huge PWADs like those that are common these days though.

Well there's also this other map. It's kinda weird but could make a cool secret level, if you fix it up a bit to make the routes and "keys" more clear. I was operating under same limits as Sandy, so that's why it turned out this way.
https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom/g-i/hex-e2m9

[Voros]

That E1M3 has over 300 enemies? Where am I gonna put a techbase map that big? Maybe as a secret level.

Although I loled after hearing MJ's Beat It playing on E1M9.

And your E2M9 has a lot of verticality. Tips to improve it:
-make lift move fast/just use teleporters
-remove all monsters
-add more deathmatch starts
-add more items

And you got yourself a nice map for FreeDM.

[Xindage]

Jon said:

Is anyone even touching FreeDM anymore? It's basically done. If it didn't already exist and we were talking about spinning up a new FreeDM project now, I'd agree that it was a distraction. But that time has been and gone.

Well i'm still maitaning freedm, soon also i'm going to release new stuffs to there, only be pacient because well i'm slow and we aways have a place for improvements...



this photo is outdated but is what i'm doing in freedm episode 1 (map01-07) making all maps themed well.

EDIT: About vannila compat in FDM1&2 i'm against it so i'll keep myself neutral until a real dicision be make in there

[Jon]

Protox said:

Well i'm still maitaning freedm, soon also i'm going to release new stuffs to there, only be pacient because well i'm slow and we aways have a place for improvements...

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply work on FreeDM was not welcome. What I was trying to say that it wasn't a distraction from the main IWAD.

THat screenshot looks great!

Protox said:

this photo is outdated but is what i'm doing in freedm episode 1 (map01-07) making all maps themed well.

Are you tweaking the existing maps, and if so how radically -- or creating new ones? If the changes are super dramatic, I'd be inclined to suggest they form a new set of maps. A FreeDM 2 perhaps :)

[Xindage]

well major of the changes are actualy in theme but well, some of the original layout may suffer but nothing to say the map is not the same except from dm06 (where both the theme and layout are drastically changed) but the map still fit in vannila section. and whit a better gameplay too.