What's the general consensus on Freedoom?

[Voros]

I guess, some new textures should be added to Freedoom, and mapper should try to use those textures in their maps, huh? Since everyone is saying they want a new experience when playing Freedoom.

Maybe that Aquatex texture pack might be nice addition. But, we'll see the outcome from the Aquatex Mapping Experiment first.

[VGamingJunkie]

I don't get it, though. Is Free Doom meant to be a free substitute for the original commercial Doom or is it meant to be its own thing? It can't be both of those at once. If people want a new experience, are there not countless other Mods and TC's that can accomplish just that? Even the name suggests it's just meant to be a free version of Doom, something people can use as the base to their own mods in the absence of the commercial one.

I get it, there's not exactly an overwhelming need for a free alternative of Doom but, if that's the case, then I think the project should be given a new name if it wants to be known for its own identity and not just being the Free Doom.

[Voros]

Freedoom = Freedom

Why? Well the new logo takes the two Os and replaces them an infinity sign. The infinity sign is basically a twisted circle/oval/loop/O. So technically, the title is "Freedom".

Maybe the IWADs should be renamed again to freedom1 and freedom2. That way, it fits the 8-character limit for filename for DOS stuff. One more step to making Freedoom more unique. Cosmetically.

[Maes]

"Meh".

[Graf Zahl]

Doomkid said:

I love the source ports focused on expanding the engine, but personally, this bit in particular always confused me. The thought of a map made 20 years ago potentially causing glitches in a modern engine when it works perfectly in doom2.exe is kind of funny you have to admit. On the other hand, it makes sense that a port focused on new map formats and such wouldn't be overly concerned with vanilla accuracy, especially since there are other ports that cater to that.

What's so hard to understand?
Hacks mean exploiting unintended behavior. That can be changed unintentionally and afterward cause problems. Take the entire collision detection code, for example. It is littered with gross oversights everywhere. Fix one and you start a chain reaction that may make some of these hacks break.

Some even break by having the variables laid out directly. The spechits overflow is a good example of that. Without some very explicit handling it would not work 'as intended' in any port. (That's why Strain's MAP07 causes problems in some ports.)

[Doomkid]

Well, nothing about it is hard to understand, it's just that I personally like to take advantage of weird little vanilla-isms to achieve certain effects in my maps. As I said, there are the source ports that cater to that kind of thing, and the source ports that expand/change things drastically and there's nothing wrong with that. I like the variety of choices we have.

[Devalaous]

If people were paid to get Freedoom out the door, it would actually get a release one day. Its an unfortunate reality, but something of this scale needs a bigger incentive to work together and get shit done. (This is coming from someone who was in official game development and saw the entirely-volunteer QA team delay an update for almost a year because no motivation or incentive to come in and work)

On other things freedoom: I'll play Freedoom when it releases, for the maps, if it ever gets out the door, but not before it. I'm so very tired of playing incomplete products given how many things over the years ive had to test thouroughly.

[VGamingJunkie]

That's a good point, Ragnor. In the real world, people need money from somewhere to survive so devoting yourself 100% to something that you know won't give you compensation or even provide a portfolio for future employment isn't going to be nearly as appealing to those with the kind of talent and drive to tackle such a thing.

[Spectre01]

Then it wouldn't be Freedoom would it? More like Paiddoom 'amiright? Most people making wads aren't getting paid for it or using them for job applications. I don't see why Freedoom would need that extra incentive. But hey, I'll gladly join the team starting at $50/hour.

[Graf Zahl]

Doomkid said:

Well, nothing about it is hard to understand, it's just that I personally like to take advantage of weird little vanilla-isms to achieve certain effects in my maps. As I said, there are the source ports that cater to that kind of thing, and the source ports that expand/change things drastically and there's nothing wrong with that. I like the variety of choices we have.

I imagine the text file for Freedoom:

"...does not work in [some extended source port]..."

People will ask why.
Answer: "Because some people had to hack instead of map."
Response: "Can't they do that in another project?"

Sorry, but Freedoom, if you absolutely want to go vanilla, due to what it wants to be should absolutely steer clear of mapping hacks. I'm not even concerned about GZDoom here, but some other ports which normally get less exposure.

This is supposed to work in every port that doesn't hack the engine apart, so it's a project that should encourage clean mapping.

[Jayextee]

Totally agreed with Graf here; my own rationale is that FreeDoom should be vanilla to increase the amount of ports it can be played with; so a newbie could go anywhere from Chocolate through 3DGE (an example I bring up because although it has Boom support, generalised linedefs are not supported at this time) to GZDoom or even Risen3D. Whatever.

Mapping hacks are contrary to that goal too; instead of alienating, let's say, the 'bottom' end of faithful source ports, they alienate that 'top' end of GL-heavy ones.

Also, you know, I dare say it's possible to make great maps without deep water or faked-3D bridges all up the wazoo. Rise to the challenge. :3

[Voros]

Its so hard to find active and dedicated vanilla mappers these days.

[Graf Zahl]

If that is true, why even start this futile quest to convert this huge project to a far more limited reference engine?

I can't shake off the feeling that some person's personal ideology got the upper hand here without thinking through all the consequences of such a decision.

[Voros]

Ask chungy that question. He was the one who made the announcement.

[gaspe]

Graf Zahl said:

a project that should encourage clean mapping.

Huh, like vanilla mapping? :)

Maybe you didn't know it but you can make cool vanilla maps without having to resolt to tricks and stuff, like Jayextee said. Also I really doubt than nowadays the people will go further than using few self-referecing sectors.

[Da Werecat]

Well, the best compatibility is assured by using as few features as possible, including hacks and limit-breaking abundancy of anything. So yeah. Vanilla. And no weird tricks.

Then it will work everywhere. Maybe.

[Voros]

I had my eyes focused on a vanilla map once, mainly because I didn't try Boom format and UDMF confused me and didn't work for me either.

My first was CRAP. Very simple in design. Linear. And all that. But it was legit enough. Never released it for a good reason.

Then my second map, which was being a MASSIVE improvement. A small portion of it was done (very amateur stuff, second map and all that), and the laptop just had to die that day. And it was going on so well too (for a beginner). I was hoping to release this map though.

*sigh*

Oh well. Looks like it's back to playing Doom instead of mapping for Doom.

TL;DR I was devoted to making a vanilla map. No, I am. Now, I can't go on due to technical limitations.

[Jayextee]

Voros said:

Its so hard to find active and dedicated vanilla mappers these days.

Except myself (Nex Credo, 900 Deep In The Dead plus an upcoming Heretic thing), Katamori (Somewhere in Time) and everybody working on Back to Saturn X episode 3 (which is, y'know, only the absolute peak of vanilla mapping right now).

Come to think of it, people do still map vanilla. They are there among those tempted by the lures of sector-soup hyperdetailing and country-sized slaughtermaps. They are there. :P

[Fonze]

Finding people is hard... mapping for vanilla is hard... man, why does everything have to be so hard?

[Voros]

The project seems more based around volunteering than recruiting. But with no advertising, thus people don't volunteer much/don't know/don't care/don't understand. This thread is a good example on other people's thoughts: confusion, doubts, misunderstandings etc.

[hex11]

Jayextee said:

Except myself (Nex Credo, 900 Deep In The Dead plus an upcoming Heretic thing), Katamori (Somewhere in Time) and everybody working on Back to Saturn X episode 3 (which is, y'know, only the absolute peak of vanilla mapping right now).

There's also all the *TWID projects, No End in Sight, and a few megawads by valkiriforce. You have episodes like No Sleep for the Dead, Nihility, and the ones by nicolasmonti. I even offered my Undeath '94 map. That's just the main stuff I can remember without digging. Of course there's also single level wads too, not just big projects.

Da Werecat said:

Vanilla. And no weird tricks. Then it will work everywhere. Maybe

Just maybe? Well if a port can't run plain vanilla without hacks, then how does it even run the IWAD?

[VGamingJunkie]

Da Werecat said:

And no weird tricks.

How about the kinds of tricks that are present in Official IWADs? Doom 2 made use of HOM to create a water effect that still works in source ports and TNT utilized a voodoo doll to insta-kill the player unless they ran in a certain pattern.

[Jon]

Since I've been mentioned a few times I think I should clear things up.

I've been involved in Freedoom since the beginning, and I did have a spell of a year or two where I was effectively managing the project. I did step down since then, and chungy did step up. In recent times I haven't seen chungy be particularly active in Freedoom at all, at least on the DWF discussion side, so I don't know whether he's leading the project anymore either.

After my term, chungy did bring in the idea of making Freedoom vanilla compatible. I can't remember if I was part of those original conversations or not. Anyway, I think it's a terrible idea, both from the perspective of a mapper/contributor and as a player. As a mapper, I would hate to have my map gutted of Boom features in the name of vanilla "purity". As a player, I *enjoy* maps with boom features, because (remarkably) I do not think we have bottomed out the well of possibilities with the features Boom offers us. It's fun to play boom maps, because they still bring something new to the table.

It's true that there are *some* vanilla-compatible mappers, and they are turning out some wonderful work. BTSX etc. are very impressive. But these are the cream of the crop. Relatively speaking, there aren't that many competent vanilla-only mappers making interesting vanilla only maps, and we aren't attracting those mappers to Freedoom. Part of the point of Freedoom (at least for me) was to have something interesting that someone from outside the community could pick up and enjoy. The whole vanilla purity thing is such a niche interest I don't think someone from outside the community would care at all.

Fraggle is right that the old approach we had to resources, where we did not permit any replacements, won't work anymore. But I don't think the opposite approach, replace anything/everything, will work either, at least not without some kind of coherent story/theme/idea to which the project can work. The motivations for the beginning of the projects were many, but basically came down to getting a working IWAD finished: we wanted a full set of HD texturs, but that fell by the wayside; we wanted a F/OSS compatible IWAD, and we achieved that, basically. The goal to play PWADs designed for Doom with Freedoom is probably achieved too, but I'm not sure if anyone really cares about that. (I don't).

Rather than replacing resources, I'd much rather have people iteratively improve them. I think my map has had several fixes from people over the years, which is great. (Although there were some proposed changes I argued against, I think from wesleyjohnson, and I might have put his nose out of joint. I didn't like those specific changes, but I welcomed the idea of people collaborating on the maps).

But again I think at this point the project needs a vision to work towards, otherwise there's no way of knowing whether a new resources is going to be appropriate for a future vision than an old one, and we're just replacing things for the sake of it, over and over. (How many SSGs have we had now?)

Given chungy seemed AWOL, the continued push-back on the vanilla thing and lack of clarity as to whether it was a goal or not, I decided to say "no, it isn't". I thought, what the hell. There's a management void and I decided to fill it. I wanted the project to move forward, it seemed paralysed by this decision. But on reflection, this was a mistake. I have strong opinions on how I think Freedoom should go forward, but I'm not prepared to sit in the driver's seat and try to make it so. So it's not really fair for me to make pronouncements like that. I think my status should be considered "emeritus"; like Fraggle (and chungy) I'd be happy to retain commit access and some kind of relationship to the project, for emergency situations perhaps, but I should not take any further part in the development direction and I should not participate any more in the freedoom sub forum (and should have my moderator status revoked). Having said that, some future leader could quite rightly kick me out altogether if they felt like doing so.

Final point: there are a number of contributors to Freedoom who are doing some excellent, excellent work. This is by no means all of them, but of course Fraggle and Chungy; Catoptromancy has been a stalwart; raymoohawk has breathed new life into a lot of sprites and brought a lot of energy, and more recently Voros has put a huge amount of effort and enthusiasm into trying to take things forward. I think the approach might be pretty scatter-gun (in light of my opinions on a theme etc.) but it's a great start, I've seen loads and loads of pull requests opened, he's learning gradually how to do things, and I could see Voros being a project leader at some point in the future for sure.

So long and good luck!

[VGamingJunkie]

Here's the thing, though, that suggests that Free Doom was meant to be taken on its own rather than as a base for people who don't have the commercial games to be able to build their own maps and levels off of. They're not trapped to Vanilla compatibility if Free Doom is, anymore than with the commercial Vanilla IWADs. If it's meant to be its own thing and source port orientated, then why call it Free Doom to begin with when the name implies that it's a Free version of Doom?

[Voros]

IMO, Freedoom should now start creating its own identity, while retaining PWAD compatibility. Raymoohawk's sprites are just the beginning.

And Jon, it seems you've been added to the Freedoom organisation on GitHub, so that means you are, again, an official maintainer of Freedoom, right?

Also, you want to just... Leave it all behind? Why would you want that?

Well, I guess the DoomWiki page needs to be updated with this recent development.

[Jon]

Voros said:

IMO, Freedoom should now start creating its own identity, while retaining PWAD compatibility. Raymoohawk's sprites are just the beginning.

I agree.

Voros said:

And Jon, it seems you've been added to the Freedoom organisation on GitHub, so that means you are, again, an official maintainer of Freedoom, right?

I got added quite recently because I was surprised that I wasn't already: when the project moved to github, I lost access. Honestly I'm not sure whether I should have access. If the project supports the idea of "emeritus" members who have access for emergency reasons, then I could keep it. Otherwise perhaps I shouldn't.

Voros said:

Also, you want to just... Leave it all behind? Why would you want that?

I've been involved in Freedoom for 15+ years. It's hard to only put a little bit of time into a project like Freedoom if you think it needs to be done differently, but to do it differently would mean having to put a lot more time in. Heartbreaking, actually.

I am not going to live forever, and I only have a certain amount of free time to spend on things. I'm trying to finish up and move on from most of the Doom things I do or have done.

[Voros]

So is that your final statement? Will you take away your moderater status as soon as possible and basically never participate in Doom stuff again?

[Jon]

Voros said:

So is that your final statement? Will you take away your moderater status as soon as possible and basically never participate in Doom stuff again?

I don't think I *can* take away my own moderator status, but I will request that someone else does.

Freedoom ≠ Doom; I'm not quite done with Doom yet (there'll be a new WadC released this week), but I am winding down on them. and really I think I am done with Freedoom. It deserves new blood (like yourself)

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be taking this quite hard.

[Voros]

Jon said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be taking this quite hard.

Well it was out-of-the-blue, so it surprised me, seeing as you're one of the senior maintainers of Freedoom.

[Gez]

MetroidJunkie said:

If it's meant to be its own thing and source port orientated, then why call it Free Doom to begin with when the name implies that it's a Free version of Doom?

FREEDOOM HISTORY FOR DUMMIES

Once upon a time in a magical kingdom, fair king Carmack released the source of code of Doom, to be freely studied and transmogrified by anyone who had a working crystal ball. Wizards from all over the realm marveled at this, and worked hard on crafting several artifacts of great power, chief among them was Boom. Lo, and wonders did not cease there, for then King Carmack put the source code under the magical spell of the Geepeehail. The Doom code was now free! Most wizards wasted no time putting the same spell on their artifacts, and Boom was among them. It was then at this time that the idea arose: "we have a free (and improved) Doom engine with Boom; what if we also had free content to go with it? Then we'd have a truly free Doom."

And as the sages have recorded, the idea of Freedoom was, from the very start, to be BSD IWAD that can be used with a GPL port, so as to be truly completely free.

But here is the twist. Some wicked stepparent somewhere had to try to ruin things, hadn't they? It turns out that the source code of Doom that was revealed to us was not actually the real source code of Doom! There are some subtle changes and omissions. This meant that the magic of the Geepeehail never affected the old vanilla plains of Doom! This means that Doom with vanilla is not really free! Thanks, wicked stepparent.