How do you value Doom multiplayer?

[Doomkid]

Strangely, outside the walls of Doomworld, I've heard this revisionist crap about "Doom's multiplayer not mattering" spread by certain YouTube users (who I'm not at all familiar with), especially around the time the D4 multiplayer beta hit. A bunch of ignoramuses going on about how "No one really played Doom multiplayer" or even worse, "Doom never had multiplayer" have probably ingrained their incorrect assumptions into the more impressionable gamers. It sits somewhere between absurd and frustrating.

Every single magazine ad or whatever for Doom back in the day boasted the multiplayer support, and DWANGO had thousands of users paying $10 a month just for the benefit of 3-4 player deathmatch and cooperative, so that isn't even counting the thousands out there who were just direct dialling and the thousands using X-Band as well for console deathmatch.

All it takes to see that Doom MP is still oddly popular for a game from 1993 is to download IDE/Zandronum/ZDaemon and observe how the combined server count is well over a thousand, with the average player total being about 100 at the slow times of day and peaking around 300 at prime time on the weekends. Pretty impressive for a 23 year old game where "multiplayer wasn't important".

(John Romero himself struggled to get over his deathmatch addiction during game development, funnily enough.)

NodEliteX5 said:

An opinion is an opinion, there is no right or wrong when it comes to opinions.

[NodEliteX5]

Doomkid said:

Strangely, outside the walls of Doomworld, I've heard this revisionist crap about "Doom's multiplayer not mattering" spread by certain YouTube users (who I'm not at all familiar with), especially around the time the D4 multiplayer beta hit. A bunch of ignoramuses going on about how "No one really played Doom multiplayer" or even worse, "Doom never had multiplayer" have probably ingrained their incorrect assumptions into the more impressionable gamers. It sits somewhere between absurd and frustrating.

Every single magazine ad or whatever for Doom back in the day boasted the multiplayer support, and DWANGO had thousands of users paying $10 a month just for the benefit of 3-4 player deathmatch and cooperative, so that isn't even counting the thousands out there who were just direct dialling and the thousands using X-Band as well for console deathmatch.

All it takes to see that Doom MP is still oddly popular for a game from 1993 is to download IDE/Zandronum/ZDaemon and observe how the combined server count is well over a thousand, with the average player total being about 100 at the slow times of day and peaking around 300 at prime time on the weekends. Pretty impressive for a 23 year old game where "multiplayer wasn't important".

(John Romero himself struggled to get over his deathmatch addiction during game development, funnily enough.)


https://earldouglas.com/diversions/thats-the-joke/thats-the-joke.jpg

Probably because Quake 3 arena and unreal tournament made everyone forget about the classic free for all death match in the original doom games.

[Doomkid]

You keep moving the goalpost: First it was "No one cares about doom multiplayer", now it's "Oh, it was only popular for a solid 6 years until Quake 3 came out!!" - Rather different arguments, wouldn't you say? Not to mention the obvious fact that a large following of doom MP players stuck around even in the wake of Quake 3. (Maybe that's why there have been over 80,000 ZDaemon accounts made since 2001? Just a guess!)

You were wrong from square one about Doom "not needing multiplayer". The development team will probably never agree with you on that point, let alone many community members. Accept it, pick up the pieces and move forward rather than continually revising/altering your position in an attempt to change your original point. It's not a good look.

[NodEliteX5]

Doomkid said:

You keep moving the goalpost: First it was "No one cares about doom multiplayer", now it's "Oh, it was only popular for a solid 6 years until Quake 3 came out!!" - Rather different arguments, wouldn't you say? Not to mention the obvious fact that a large following of doom MP players stuck around even in the wake of Quake 3. (Maybe that's why there have been over 80,000 ZDaemon accounts made since 2001? Just a guess!)

You were wrong from square one about Doom "not needing multiplayer". The development team will probably never agree with you on that point, let alone many community members. Accept it, pick up the pieces and move forward rather than continually revising/altering your position in an attempt to change your original point. It's not a good look.

When the hell did I say that DOOM didn't need multiplayer? I never said that DOOM doesn't need it in fact I'm one of the few that likes the entire game. What part of "ENTIRE GAME" did you not understand? Your argument falls flat on it's face for putting words in my mouth and not paying attention to what my first response to the thread was. Massivedoomfan may not like it but I'm different, however I'm not an online only elitist and prefer to have options available on how to play games, whether it be offline or online. Or am I wrong for having a different opinion than you? Given your previous response you'll probably say that I'm wrong for liking everything that's in the game.

[MrDeAD1313]

The only Doom game without MP was Doom 64 and if I remember correctly it was supposed to have MP but limitations caused them to keep it out of the final release. I could be wrong here. Yes, Doom needs to have MP of some sort in it or it would be kinda against tradition.

PS: Is it me or is Mr.NodEliteX5 quite argumentative lately?

[Jaxxoon R]

I've taken notice. Hopefully he's not having any sort of life troubles at least.

[NodEliteX5]

MrDeAD1313 said:

The only Doom game without MP was Doom 64 and if I remember correctly it was supposed to have MP but limitations caused them to keep it out of the final release. I could be wrong here. Yes, Doom needs to have MP of some sort in it or it would be kinda against tradition.

PS: Is it me or is Mr.NodEliteX5 quite argumentative lately?

I'm pretty sure you would be mad too if someone was putting words in your mouth claiming that you hated something when you said no such thing.

[Doomkid]

NodEliteX5 said:

Given your previous response you'll probably say that I'm wrong for liking everything that's in the game.

As someone who's been mapping for SP/Coop and duel/deathmatch for over 15 years now I can safely say I love the non-multiplayer elements of the game as well and would never put down someone for enjoying the whole package as that's exactly what I do.


Here's an example of your "roaring support" of Doom multiplayer:

NodEliteX5 said:

[...] I would totally be fine with the mp being gone in favor of those two modes I've mentioned.

Here's an example of you actually putting words in someone else's mouth:

NodEliteX5 said:

So you completely ignored the campaign?

Here's you making an assumption based on nothing (remember, assuming makes an ASS of U and ME)

NodEliteX5 said:

Are you a MP elitist by any chance?

I'm not trying to attack you or anything like that, I'm trying to point out that you're saying silly things which is why you're getting the responses that you are. You are obviously entitled to your opinion, I was attempting to make it clear I was joking when I said your had a "wrong opinion" about the multiplayer, what with the famous Wolfcastle picture and all

[MrDeAD1313]

NodEliteX5 said:

I'm pretty sure you would be mad too if someone was putting words in your mouth claiming that you hated something when you said no such thing.

Not trying to add fuel here my friend. Just an observation

[NodEliteX5]

Doomkid said:

As someone who's been mapping for SP/Coop and duel/deathmatch for over 15 years now I can safely say I love the non-multiplayer elements of the game as well and would never put down someone for enjoying the whole package as that's exactly what I do.


Here's an example of your "roaring support" of Doom multiplayer:
Here's an example of you actually putting words in someone else's mouth:
Here's you making an assumption based on nothing (remember, assuming makes an ASS of U and ME)

I'm not trying to attack you or anything like that, I'm trying to point out that you're saying silly things which is why you're getting the responses that you are. You are obviously entitled to your opinion, I was attempting to make it clear I was joking when I said your had a "wrong opinion" about the multiplayer, what with the famous Wolfcastle picture and all

#1: It's about the sequel not this game.

#2: The questions I asked were legitimate, anyone else could've said the same thing and also you clearly have a strange view on what "putting words in someone's mouth" is. What other modes are there besides campaign, multiplayer and snapmap? If he said that he only bought it for multiplayer and snapmap then I don't have a right to ask if he played or skipped the campaign? who the hell at you to decide on what makes a person an ass? As for the elitist question the same thing applies from what I've just said earlier, I asked if he was an elitist, I didn't outright label him as one like you claim me to be doing.

[Doomkid]

NodEliteX5 said:

It's about the sequel not this game.
[..]
who the hell at you to decide on what makes a person an ass?

Yes, a sequel for a Doom game, a series which has always had multiplayer.

"Assuming makes an ass of u and me" is a commonly used expression. I'm not claiming to be the grand master who decides who is and is not an ass. Asking if someone is an "MP elitist" is a loaded question if I've ever heard one and comes off as an assumption more so than a question to 99% of people reading this (give or take).

I'm trying to be diplomatic here by clarifying that I'm not attacking you, I'm just throwing the facts about Doom's long history of multiplayer out there. Saying it's not an intrinsic part of the series is inaccurate, frankly speaking.

[Edward850]

I'm starting to wonder if there's a weird language barrier thing going on. NodEliteX5 says one thing, and then without fail will then say "no you read it wrong I was talking about something else". This happens entirely too often to simply be a coincidence.

[NodEliteX5]

Edward850 said:

I'm starting to wonder if there's a weird language barrier thing going on. NodEliteX5 says one thing, and then without fail will then say "no you read it wrong I was talking about something else". This happens entirely too often to simply be a coincidence.

Describes you very perfectly.

[Edward850]

I think "tired angry game dev" describes me vastly better. :P

[NodEliteX5]

Doomkid said:

Saying it's not an intrinsic part of the series is inaccurate, frankly speaking.

And when have I said that multiplayer isn't part of the series?

[NodEliteX5]

Edward850 said:

I think "tired angry game dev" describes me vastly better. :P

Nevermind I take it back you just love to troll. :P

[Edward850]

NodEliteX5 said:

Nevermind I take it back you just love to troll. :P

I'm not sure how describing myself as a tired/angry game developer has even the least bit to do with trolling.

[Doomkid]

NodEliteX5 said:

And when have I said that multiplayer isn't part of the series?

You literally advocated it be tossed out in favour of improved snapmap and additional SP maps with the very first response to this thread!

I want to say you're trolling, but I genuinely think there's just some kind of disconnect going on here. Read your own posts before acting baffled by responses to said posts.

[Phml]

I don't value Doom multiplayer much, not because it's bad, but because competitive multiplayer as a FPS genre has been developed, nurtured and arguably perfected over the years following classic Doom. If you want a refined and balanced experience in that genre, you've got choices.

On the other hand, the classic Doom SP formula largely disappeared from gaming. Even something more standard such as Doom 2016 is not all that common. Linear story campaigns also need a constant stream of new content to remain entertaining, unlike multiplayer where fighting against other players offers you more replayability out of the box.

In a nutshell, it's not about Doom itself as much as it is about how it stacks to the rest of the industry. Given great SP and great MP, I'd see SP as more important because there's nigh infinite MP options (in terms of playtime) whereas SP shooters are so sparse you could not even fill a year of gaming going through all the decent ones released in the last TEN years.

[NodEliteX5]

Doomkid said:

You literally advocated it be tossed out in favour of improved snapmap and additional SP maps with the very first response to this thread!

I want to say you're trolling, but I genuinely think there's just some kind of disconnect going on here. Read your own posts before acting baffled by responses to said posts.

I said if they did that then I wouldn't be bothered by it, I'll repeat it again since you are slow.....IF...T-H-E-Y...D-O...IT. Do you understand? (Probably not).

[NodEliteX5]

Phml said:

I don't value Doom multiplayer much, not because it's bad, but because competitive multiplayer as a FPS genre has been developed, nurtured and arguably perfected over the years following classic Doom. If you want a refined and balanced experience in that genre, you've got choices.

On the other hand, the classic Doom SP formula largely disappeared from gaming. Even something more standard such as Doom 2016 is not all that common. Linear story campaigns also need a constant stream of new content to remain entertaining, unlike multiplayer where fighting against other players offers you more replayability out of the box.

In a nutshell, it's not about Doom itself as much as it is about how it stacks to the rest of the industry. Given great SP and great MP, I'd see SP as more important because there's nigh infinite MP options (in terms of playtime) whereas SP shooters are so sparse you could not even fill a year of gaming going through all the decent ones released in the last TEN years.

Probably because no one bothered to take the time to create a very very long non linear shooter that is SP oriented over the decade.

[Doomkid]

Phml has a point, but truth be told, the only multiplayer experiences I've really enjoyed in FPS games have been in Doom, Quake and Left 4 Dead. Modern games may be generally more refined but to me that just means they feel a little more homogenous and boring on the MP side. Quake and Doom are two of a kind in the world of multiplayer FPS.

NodEliteX5 said:

I said if they did that then I wouldn't be bothered by it, I'll repeat it again since you are slow.....IF...T-H-E-Y...D-O...IT. Do you understand? (Probably not).

There's no need to be an insufferable douche bag with every post, man. I've attempted to be diplomatic, you've done nothing but conduct yourself in a foolish matter by contradicting yourself and spewing unneeded insults.

[NodEliteX5]

Doomkid said:

Phml has a point, but truth be told, the only multiplayer experiences I've really enjoyed in FPS games have been in Doom, Quake and Left 4 Dead. Modern games may be generally more refined but to me that just means they feel a little more homogenous and boring on the MP side. Quake and Doom are two of a kind in the world of multiplayer FPS.

There's no need to be an insufferable douche bag with every post, man. I've attempted to be diplomatic, you've done nothing but conduct yourself in a foolish matter by contradicting yourself and spewing unneeded insults.

You are the one who started the insults, and decided to cover your tracks by editing your previous posts so that they aren't used against you with the quotes. That's just pathetic man.

[massivefanofdoom]

Holy guacamole. Who left the cooker gas on?

From a wanton Y/N format to this. I might have to create topics and sleep on them some more :)

On topic ... I can be called ignoramus and obnoxious as much as people like, and I am aware of the DWANGO network and mp coop back in the day, even deathmatch on dialup or LAN, and I wish we had statistics somewhere, but I am still of the opinion ... and I have to phrase this carefully because there are a ton of very smart people here who will either pick out your inaccuracy or either falsify and / or misinterpret you .... that the bulk of the game's success came from the single player community and the massive mod-friendliness and longevity that gave it a life way beyond that of its sequels such as doom3 and possible even this one. I think if there were thousands playing MP games of all kinds, there were tens of thousands and more doing the SP. That is my opinion and I am sorry if it sounds retarded. I never myself however stated 'I don't like MP so it automatically makes it meaningless', though I have said I felt as if there wasn't such a strong demand for it as for a SP DLC (through browsing the official id and other forums as well as YT and reddit and the like) or even that it wasn't 'needed' (interpret as you like) and maybe in hindsight that wasn't the best / smartest thing to say.

[NodEliteX5]

massivefanofdoom said:

Holy guacamole. Who left the cooker gas on?

From a wanton Y/N format to this. I might have to create topics and sleep on them some more :)

On topic ... I can be called ignoramus and obnoxious as much as people like, and I am aware of the DWANGO network and mp coop back in the day, even deathmatch on dialup or LAN, and I wish we had statistics somewhere, but I am still of the opinion ... and I have to phrase this carefully because there are a ton of very smart people here who will either pick out your inaccuracy or either falsify and / or misinterpret you .... that the bulk of the game's success came from the single player community and the massive mod-friendliness and longevity that gave it a life way beyond that of its sequels such as doom3 and possible even this one. I think if there were thousands playing MP games of all kinds, there were tens of thousands and more doing the SP. That is my opinion and I am sorry if it sounds retarded.

Yeah, pretty much this.

[Doomkid]

NodEliteX5 said:

You are the one who started the insults, and decided to cover your tracks by editing your previous posts so that they aren't used against you with the quotes. That's just pathetic man.

I edited my posts to fix typos, I never once edited any insults out. Not sure what you're on about but lying ain't a good look either. EDIT: Actually, so far in this thread, you have called people elitist, trolls and slow - What I'm getting at is, it's time to stop

massivefanofdoom said:

On topic ... I can be called ignoramus and obnoxious as much as people like

Who called you an ignoramus? I did use that term to describe some Youtubers spreading falsities that will be picked up by impressionable gamers, but I don't recall anyone directing that term towards you.

[massivefanofdoom]

Doomkid said:

I edited my posts to fix typos, I never once edited any insults out. Not sure what you're on about but lying ain't a good look either.


Who called you an ignoramus? I did use that term to describe some Youtubers spreading falsities that will be picked up by impressionable gamers, but I don't recall anyone directing that term towards you.

I didn't say you directed it to me, it's cool. I assumed there would be no difference between me and a YT user spouting the same thing, though. (Sorta - you know what I mean. Although that didn't sound the best either - I am aware that YT users encompass some of the biggest morons on the face of this planet, I wouldn't be spouting the exact same thing - just a similar basic concept)

[Doomkid]

I feel like someone repeating it innocently isn't really as bad as someone speaking to an audience of 100,000+ and just spouting stuff that is flat out false. If someone says MP isn't a part of Doom I have to correct them, but I've just tried to be informative - I don't know why Nod has turned this into conflict, he needs to chill.

[massivefanofdoom]

Doomkid said:

I feel like someone repeating it innocently isn't really as bad as someone speaking to an audience of 100,000+ and just spouting stuff that is flat out false. If someone says MP isn't a part of Doom I have to correct them, but I've just tried to be informative - I don't know why Nod has turned this into conflict, he needs to chill.

And I don't think he is saying MP isn't a part of doom. The same thing I am saying - that is was perhaps never as impactful, or even close, to being as impactful and important as the SP.

EDIT: Damn, that's a lot of impact.

[Edward850]

Considering it invented a word (deathmatch), it was pretty damn impactful. While it didn't invent the word "frags", its use of the word related to kills in competitive multiplayer is also derived from Doom.

In IT circles it was also pretty much the network killer. Although that's just repeating myself at this point.

However you're also running into a problem post that. If you want to suggest that the Single Player might have had more influence, it's actually somewhat pointless to bring it up, seeing is there is no possible to quantify that.
It's like asking if there is more pies in the world than cakes. You have no hope in ever getting a correct answer to that question, so you are better off just saying they are both good.