Classic Doom --> DM levels

[KevvyLava]

Hi all,

Some of you have already provided me with feedback...much appreciated. This 20-map pack is for those who love the old levels from Doom 1/2/etc., but learned a long time ago that the maps aren't well-suited to deathmatch. The maps I have chosen were ones that I thought had potential if extra parts were deleted (or in some cases, added or mixed together). I tried to keep adjustments tasteful.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9zbxk2isv9x5bu7/KevinDM.zip?dl=0

I am targeting Zandronum but the map doesn't use anything crazy so Odamex and ZDaemon should be on the table if anyone thinks it's a good idea.

If you'd like to provide feedback, please do. It was a fun project and my goal is to get a small group of people to play at least a few times...maybe you will find it a good break from the more modern port features, especially since it looks like classic Doom, except without the boring single-player parts.

And if anyone knows how to program loops properly in midi's for Zan, I'm all ears. Should have a server up this week.

[Decay]

I see you have a server up in zandronum Please upload the wad to an appropriate file site where it can be found. Nobody can join the server if GETWAD or WADSEEKER cannot find the wad.

[KevvyLava]

Thanks for the feedback...I was working through that with the fellow I was playing with. Apparently there was an issue with Doomshack and I was some sort of guinea pig.

It worked last night and then the guy (Player7396 on my server) said he "fixed it" and then someone else joined and was able to play briefly.

Try now and see if it works, if you have the time/inclination.

If this generates any traction, I may take suggestions and make a few maps better for a quick updated release (different file name obviously) but for the most part the maps have been fun. Maybe we can even get 4-6 players at some point.

[Decay]

Please use a hosting service like TSPG or get Doomshack to host the maps. Whatever server you are currently hosting it on is nothing short of awful. It is literally unplayable.

Furthermore, please consult other popular DM server for flag settings. Making players suffer through respawning weapons is a no-no.

Otherwise, the brief look I took through the maps show no concern for balance (power ups, ammo dumps, spawns are ???) and I doubt I would ever want to play any of those maps again. I would say they'd be good in Last Man Standing but I think you have areas where players spawn and people from the outside can't get them.

It's nice as a first attempt to get into mapping and understand the fundamentals of mapping so you can eventually create your own stuff but frankly I think you missed the goal. If the original map wasn't RADICALLY altered, the map already wasn't good and wasn't made much better (or worse). You also need to look at your mapinfo and technical stuff because the map ordering was completely shot.

Doctor recommends you play more DM and get a better grasp on how Doom DM actually plays out these days and then maybe try this kind of project again if you really want to.

[KevvyLava]

I am hosting the server on my personal computer. Was working fine yesterday playing against someone for about 45 minutes or so, but another person did report some big-time lag, although they had a low ping. Not sure. Tips to optimize?

Can you elaborate on "no concern for balance"? then you said "power ups, ammo dumps, spawns are ???)"...not sure what you mean specifically.

Also, "ordering of the maps was completely shot"? I set the server to random on the recent iteration, I believe. Which of the maps did you think were good, which were bad? Feel free to just refer to them as the one they were originally based on if that's easier and any spring to mind.

[Decay]

KevvyLava said:

Tips to optimize?

Yea don't host on a home server. There are tons of alternatives that are infinitely better.

KevvyLava said:

Can you elaborate on "no concern for balance"? then you said "power ups, ammo dumps, spawns are ???)"...not sure what you mean specifically.

I mean that the spawns are poorly placed, the ammo/weapon distribution poorly placed/thought out

KevvyLava said:

Also, "ordering of the maps was completely shot"? I set the server to random on the recent iteration, I believe. Which of the maps did you think were good, which were bad? Feel free to just refer to them as the one they were originally based on if that's easier and any spring to mind.

I just opened your wad in SLADE and discovered you don't even have a mapinfo lump and that the wad inside is a mess.

I don't know what map numbers they were but I saw 2 maps that had potential if they got fixed up, but I wouldn't waste my time with any other.

[KevvyLava]

The wad inside is a mess, that's for sure. I was trying to get textures from Plutonia in there and it was a massive pain in the ass using XWE. So I just said fuck it and figured I'd clean it up on a re-release. I've never used a mapinfo lump because it doesn't seem necessary to the map itself...just fluff, right?

As for spawns and weapon placement, I tried to put weapons by each spawn. I knew going in that I wouldn't get it right, so I have no issue with direct feedback, but what you're giving me is pretty vague.

What if you took one of the levels that you liked, put the weapons/spawns where you think they should be, and send me that individual map? Or would you be willing to direct me towards classic-Doom style DM levels that you think would make it obvious to me?

Also, only 2 out of the 20? Which ones? You can just say "the one based on E2M2" and I'll know you meant map19 on my wad.

[Decay]

Put weapons ON the spawns. 99% people hate spawning without a weapon immediately in their hand. You can only really get away with doing that MAYBE once or twice in a map depending on what's around you. Starting without a weapon is a sure-fire way to get people not to like the wad.

I'm not going to edit any maps sorry. I recommend you look through greenwar.wad and maybe Brit10/Brit11 for some older takes on classic maps. If you want to go super classic (but not necessarily good) go through the dwango series (particularly 5 and 12?). For more modern takes on classic style DM maps, check out some of Doomkid's wads and skirmish1on1.wad

Map13 could be decent if it was fixed up/altered. Wider hallways, less cramped fighting area. Map19 same. The take on dead simple wasn't too bad structurally but it's ruined by the stupid lift gimmicks (soulsphere is okay but the rest, no) and ammo/guns thrown around everywhere.

[KevvyLava]

OK, thanks for the suggestions on the maps, especially maps/spawns. I can make some of those changes no problem. Assuming that the DM flag would be "weapons stay" because otherwise you might spawn and a weapon might not be there = same problem, right?

Although I think you are trying to evaluate this to a different standard that my actual goal, I think there are ways I can improve the levels based on your feedback since some of the things you mentioned are things I agreed with.

The part that you didn't mention, though, was what server options I might have aside from hosting on my personal computer.

It sounds like either way, this isn't a project that you thought was a good idea from the beginning, so thanks for giving it some attention in order to help me.

[Fonze]

I agree with 100% of the advice Decay posted here. I don't think he went into it not liking it.

I will say though, that as a general rule of thumb it is bad, bad, bad practice to make large map sets without being familiar with the standards that you will be judged by because after all that work, now instead of a couple short maps to fix up and do better in the future, you now have 20 to either fix or trash.

Also, as Decay said, you really, reaaaallly need to DM more before building a map set like this so that you know what works in a real match and what doesn't. I'll tell you right now I'm one of those players that 9 times out of 10, if I don't spawn with an SSG in my hands I'm getting upset. Especially when I'm actively competing for first against tough opponents. Now I gotta waste precious time to find a weapon that can kill reliably and of course adding doors and lifts to that equation only exacerbates the problem.

I tend to do best in DMs when I play on a map that allows me to sr-40/50 around the level while bumping into as few things as possible. This enables me to be fairly sure that nobody is on my back as I slowly creep up closer and closer to the target I'm currently stalking.

[Decay]

KevvyLava said:

OK, thanks for the suggestions on the maps, especially maps/spawns. I can make some of those changes no problem. Assuming that the DM flag would be "weapons stay" because otherwise you might spawn and a weapon might not be there = same problem, right?

Weapons stay is indeed the correct flag and it has been the "standard" forever. The alternative is having people run around with pistols all the time and then leaving the server because they can't kill anything and die all the time because whoever has the weapons rules the map. This was pretty prominent in your courtyard map. I spawned beside the bfg and ruled the map after that, nobody could touch me.

KevvyLava said:

Although I think you are trying to evaluate this to a different standard that my actual goal, I think there are ways I can improve the levels based on your feedback since some of the things you mentioned are things I agreed with.

You are correct, I'm trying to hold DM wads to a higher standard than most because frankly too many people produce total garbage and it's a inexcusable travesty to have so much time and effort wasted on project that had potential to be super fun but instead up as super duds. Slightly wider hallways/fighting areas and redistributing power ups is not so much a different standard as much as it is "common sense" these days. Invisibility is a BAD idea. Unbalanced maps are not fun to play more than once (or at all). Barrels and lifts obstructing game play make it slow and dull. All of the most acclaimed DM packs in the last 10-15 years don't feature these things. The wads that were made in that time that DO incorporate them are forgotten, buried, and unplayed, for good reason: they suck.

KevvyLava said:

The part that you didn't mention, though, was what server options I might have aside from hosting on my personal computer.

This has been mentioned in several threads scattered throughout the multiplayer section, and in this very thread.

"Please use a hosting service like TSPG or get Doomshack to host the maps. Whatever server you are currently hosting it on is nothing short of awful. It is literally unplayable."

TSPG is an automated dedicated hosting system. More information here: http://allfearthesentinel.net/

Doomshack is the server hosting your wad. Ask Doomkid for a server and he will probably provide one

KevvyLava said:

It sounds like either way, this isn't a project that you thought was a good idea from the beginning, so thanks for giving it some attention in order to help me.

You are right again, but that doesn't mean I won't help a little bit. Essentially I'm hoping you learn from doing this project and grow as a mapper and do better next time.

[KevvyLava]

Yeah, like I said, it looks like some of the things I did were either experiments, accidents (I thought I deleted the invisibility's), or style preferences.

Like I said, at the end of the day, I don't think you are really the target market for this, but some of the basic stuff is helpful so thanks for that.

Like I mentioned in a previous thread, my goal is to preserve the original style of older maps and branch out a little bit. Thanks again for your opinions.