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Revae

REKKR - V1.16

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8 minutes ago, Charlie Love said:

Doom 1 shareware was legal to distribute and sell wasn't it? 

Doom 1 shareware comes with a license which says

Quote

Welcome to v1.9 of DOOM!

id Software respectfully requests that you do not modify the
levels for the shareware version of DOOM.
 We feel that the
distribution of new levels that work with the shareware version
of DOOM will lessen a potential user's incentive to purchase the
registered version.

If you would like to work with modified levels of DOOM, we
encourage you to purchase the registered version of the game.

Pretty certain that if the shareware EXE were bundled with a completely new IWAD, that could be technically construed as modified levels.

 

Besides, vanilla binaries contain proprietary sound code (IIRC), for which separate licensing would likely have to be obtained. But since the rest of the code is open source and DOS ports are available, there's no reason to step into legal grey area.

 

If MBF is used (the maintenance release is probably the preferred option), that would solve the DeHackEd issue as it has built-in support for that. It would then boil down to editing file name references, loading text, cheat codes and exit messages in the source files (oh, and there are the extra menu text lumps in Doom font which would be better replaced with their REKKR counterparts), and then compiling the whole thing. It works in DOSBox too, I was able to compile a HacX 1.2 MBF version a while ago.

 

1 minute ago, NightFright said:

I would tend towards: Distributing yes, selling... rather not.

Actually, shareware vendors totally could sell the shareware version -- but only in unmodified form. So it is not suitable for a project like REKKR at all.

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43 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

Actually, shareware vendors totally could sell the shareware version -- but only in unmodified form. So it is not suitable for a project like REKKR at all.

yeah, thats what i thought :/

So, DOS version of MBF has a license that allows it to be selleable?
Interesting, i would never imagine that Lee Killough would took that approach back then.

Edited by P41R47

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MBF, like Boom and the Doom code release, was dual-licensed under the original Doom source license and the GPL. The GPL allows commercial use. Later generations of ports, with a few exceptions, dropped the Doom source license to keep only the GPL.

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I was wondering - I remember that the HacX 1.2 IWAD was created by supplementing the missing lumps (palette, sound and something else I forgot) from Freedm, but IIRC, sometime after the HacX 1.2 release the Freedm project updated the GENMIDI lump, resulting in improved OPL music quality. I think the difference is noticeable at least in some source ports including MBF if I'm not mistaken (e.g. if you take Freedreleases from before and after the GENMIDI update and listen to the same tune in a level).

 

I'm assuming that the REKKR IWAD was created with the latest Freedm data, but bringing this up JIC.


Also, going back to the usability of MBF, I remember that I could not use the HacX 1.2 IWAD with MBF right away because of some missing lumps that were apparently considered non-essential for both ZDoom and Chocolate Doom targets, and had to restore them using ZenNode. I think the REJECT lumps were missing, possibly something else too.

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8 minutes ago, Gez said:

I doubt Chocolate Doom would consider REJECT to be non-essential...

My memory is a bit hazy on details. Maybe the lumps weren't missing but they did not have the right format for MBF to recognize? I remember I'd get a string of error messages when trying to run the 1.2 IWAD out of the box, so I Googled the error and it was discussed in relation to something else in a Doom related forum, so I followed the solution described there, which involved ZenNode, and it worked.

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Having checked a fresh Hacx 1.2 fresh from its official site, it has REJECT lumps but they are empty (zero length). Apparently Chocolate Doom supports this? I figure if it does, then vanilla also supports it; and Boom/MBF not supporting it is a deviation from the original... Don't feel like running the tests, though.

I found this thread, which mentions other ways in which changed code from Boom/MBF caused problems with Hacx, such as not validating the IWAD since it doesn't have 32 maps.

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Oh nice, I forgot I even created a topic about that! :) And I have forgotten as well that I had uploaded both the code and the binary that I'd compiled back then (whoah, it was in 2015 O_o).

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Wonder how much a small run of big-boxes would cost to print. Assuming I burn the discs and label them myself...
Ah well. Some things just aren't practical.

 

That talk about making a dos compatible release is interesting too. I just don't know enough about it to chime in so I've just been reading and pondering.

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20 hours ago, Revae said:

Wonder how much a small run of big-boxes would cost to print. Assuming I burn the discs and label them myself...

Might be useful to get input from Scuba Steve, since he did just that for AD2, heh.

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I checked AD2 to see what they didm they had dvd boxes with label inserts, which is a lot easier and makes more sense. But if I wanted a 90s style big box I gotta shop around a bit more.

We'll see. I might make a few if it's cheap enough, just for my own amusement.

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2 hours ago, Revae said:

a 90s style big box

Oh man, now that would bring back a lot of memories.

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I have greatly streamlined E3M4, removing a lot of redundency. The layout is the same, but with a lot less backtracking, and only one key needed... Looking at the other maps I did for E1,2, and 3 as well, seeing what can be done to make them better.

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I don't know why I never asked this, but will the Steam release of REKKR still be vanilla-compatible? I know that the plan is to bundle GZDoom with it, which is why I raise the question.

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2 hours ago, OpenRift said:

I don't know why I never asked this, but will the Steam release of REKKR still be vanilla-compatible? I know that the plan is to bundle GZDoom with it, which is why I raise the question.

the episodes are the same, with just a few changes, like the one on E3M4 like rev stated above, except for the new Ep4, and maybe the original limit removing Ep4 will be bundled as a bonus Ep5.

From previous post with Revae, yes, he was going to keep the vanilla compatibility in case someone wanted to play it with good old doom.exe.
I just hope this is still the plan.

And for the original Ep4 that is limit removing, well, DoomPlus or Doom32 are your best friends.

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2 hours ago, P41R47 said:

the episodes are the same, with just a few changes, like the one on E3M4 like rev stated above, except for the new Ep4, and maybe the original limit removing Ep4 will be bundled as a bonus Ep5.

From previous post with Revae, yes, he was going to keep the vanilla compatibility in case someone wanted to play it with good old doom.exe.
 I just hope this is still the plan.

And for the original Ep4 that is limit removing, well, DoomPlus or Doom32 are your best friends.

I'm currently working on making a standalone DOS package for running REKKR, with a setup program and ipx/serial drivers to boot, just gotta figure out a way to streamline starting a multiplayer game without having to punch in parameters manually each time with IPXSETUP or SERSETUP.

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Vanilla is still planned, I just haven't tested to make sure the deh patch doesn't break it.

13 hours ago, OpenRift said:

just gotta figure out a way to streamline starting a multiplayer game without having to punch in parameters manually each time with IPXSETUP or SERSETUP.

I'm working on a little gui for GZDoom, might be able to modify it for that purpose, depending.

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Due to holiday was not able to address the lot of you. Thank you for responding.

 

On 9/4/2021 at 7:34 PM, P41R47 said:

if one change the name of the string on dehacked from ''doom'' to ''rekkrsa'', then rekkrsa.wad will be recognized as an IWAD.

Obviously, after applying the dehacked patch to the .exe.

That could work...

On 9/4/2021 at 11:49 PM, P41R47 said:

I just tried it and it worked without problem :D
I modified the original .deh file on Ultimate Doom 1.9, to be compatible with the vanilla .exe
Then i launched rekkr.exe and it searched for rekkrsa.wad
;)

... so this does work! So basically, the only real culprit is how to package that in some kind of fashion that it passes. So that means the Shareware IWAD, or FreeDoom.

On 9/4/2021 at 11:59 PM, Gez said:

Technically there's no such thing as a shareware exe, Doom uses the same executable for shareware and registered version. (Only thing that changes is the filename.) Doom II also uses the same executable. Now this is all a bit muddled by the various versions of the executable floating around, of course.

The best kind of correct is delivered here again :) Yeah, the executable is all but the same.

 

How far can we go there? Personally im of the camp that says that an executable by itself is harmless*, and Github hosts various engines equally the same. Its the IWAD where legalese starts.

 

* Well, harmless... Paul Radek's ears rear their head given DMX. Maybe a replacement could work that removes the DMX sound engine? PCDoom v2? Doom Vanille?

 

The only viable option that is certain is FreeDoom. REKKR could work with those resources and a DeHacked executable called REKKR.EXE. But going natively (so with the Vanilla engine + shareware IWAD) could be tricky.This is a lot of what ifs for comparitively little gain, mind you.

 

The only other legal option would for Revae to contact Sponge/iD Soft and ask about the possibilities or have someone like New Blood (provided they care about REKKR in the first place) do this.

 

Ideally a standalone IWAD + DeHacked executable is the key. But likely impossible.

On 9/5/2021 at 2:07 AM, MrFlibble said:

If MBF is used (the maintenance release is probably the preferred option), that would solve the DeHackEd issue as it has built-in support for that. It would then boil down to editing file name references, loading text, cheat codes and exit messages in the source files (oh, and there are the extra menu text lumps in Doom font which would be better replaced with their REKKR counterparts), and then compiling the whole thing. It works in DOSBox too, I was able to compile a HacX 1.2 MBF version a while ago.

If i remember you were also succesfull in building HacX 1.2 for DOS on vanilla aswell. If MBF can be used for that it would solve a ton. But it wouldn't be vanilla anymore.

 

14 hours ago, OpenRift said:

I'm currently working on making a standalone DOS package for running REKKR, with a setup program and ipx/serial drivers to boot, just gotta figure out a way to streamline starting a multiplayer game without having to punch in parameters manually each time with IPXSETUP or SERSETUP.

What programs would you use in this regard?

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4 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

What programs would you use in this regard?

For the SETUP EXE, I took Chex Quest's Setup and hex-edited it to say REKKR Setup instead, since given how CQ's setup exe differs from the other idTech 1 setups, it was the easiest to fix because there was only one place to change things: the label at the top. Also when saving your settings, it doesn't launch the game, it just takes you back to the command prompt, so I didn't have to figure out how to change what EXE it launches. As for IPXSETUP and SERSETUP, I've done something similar (they seem to work from my testing), this time borrowing EXEs from Doom II and it was a bit easier to change which EXE it launches. The only issue I really have right now is trying to make it so the main EXE (REKKR.EXE) doesn't warn you that the game has been modified every time it launches the IWAD. There's also a lot of "column without a patch" errors in the startup console, though it doesn't seem to have any affect on gameplay as far as I've seen.

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21 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Ideally a standalone IWAD + DeHacked executable is the key. But likely impossible.

If i remember you were also succesfull in building HacX 1.2 for DOS on vanilla aswell. If MBF can be used for that it would solve a ton. But it wouldn't be vanilla anymore.

I voiced exactly that concern in my earlier post, but @Revae replied that it could actually be preferable.

 

But there's always doom-vanille and FastDoom, the problem would be to bake the DeHackEd changes into them, but since the source is available in both cases, then maybe make those changes at source level and call it a day?

21 hours ago, OpenRift said:

For the SETUP EXE, I took Chex Quest's Setup and hex-edited it to say REKKR Setup instead, since given how CQ's setup exe differs from the other idTech 1 setups, it was the easiest to fix because there was only one place to change things: the label at the top. Also when saving your settings, it doesn't launch the game, it just takes you back to the command prompt, so I didn't have to figure out how to change what EXE it launches.

IIRC Romero released the source for both Doom and Doom II setup programmes, I only don't remember the license. Have you tried building yours from these sources?

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21 hours ago, OpenRift said:

For the SETUP EXE, I took Chex Quest's Setup and hex-edited it to say REKKR Setup instead, since given how CQ's setup exe differs from the other idTech 1 setups, it was the easiest to fix because there was only one place to change things: the label at the top. Also when saving your settings, it doesn't launch the game, it just takes you back to the command prompt, so I didn't have to figure out how to change what EXE it launches. As for IPXSETUP and SERSETUP, I've done something similar (they seem to work from my testing), this time borrowing EXEs from Doom II and it was a bit easier to change which EXE it launches. The only issue I really have right now is trying to make it so the main EXE (REKKR.EXE) doesn't warn you that the game has been modified every time it launches the IWAD. There's also a lot of "column without a patch" errors in the startup console, though it doesn't seem to have any affect on gameplay as far as I've seen.

How do you solve the IWAD problem? Because as impressive as this is, the buck seems to stop there.

 

32 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

I voiced exactly that concern in my earlier post, but @Revae replied that it could actually be preferable.

The only difference being that it wouldn't actually play to MBF's strengths. Its a Vanilla WAD after all.

32 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

But there's always doom-vanille and FastDoom, the problem would be to bake the DeHackEd changes into them, but since the source is available in both cases, then maybe make those changes at source level and call it a day?

FastDoom would be pretty interesting due to the broad rendering support it has. A fork of that would bring a lot of possibilities for REKKR on 486 and below.

 

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2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

The only difference being that it wouldn't actually play to MBF's strengths. Its a Vanilla WAD after all.

Heheh, yeah, that's certainly true, but with the limited selection of DOS ports that have build-in DEH file support, I fancy this makes for a "strength" on its own too. Although makes me wonder if the new episode could yet take advantage of the extra map features as well.

 

I'd say that the whole vanilla appeal and importance was only relevant for so long as REKKR remained a PWAD, but if it's going to get its own binary there's no reason why it shouldn't make use of more features if they're there. It's not like strict compliance with the original Doom's specs has some intrinsic value as a hallmark of "retro" style or something. If I remember and understand correctly, the extra Boom/MBF features were seen as taking Doom to the next level back when they were first conceived and implemented. It just so happened that Boom, MBF and the BEX format remained one of the many different options, and not that widely used ones for that matter, instead of becoming the mainstream way of Doom modding (maybe there's a parallel universe where they have? :))

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5 hours ago, MrFlibble said:

IIRC Romero released the source for both Doom and Doom II setup programmes, I only don't remember the license. Have you tried building yours from these sources?

Well you see, that would require me to know how to program and compile DOS stuff. My understanding of either of those things is incredibly vague at best. The reason I Hex-edited it instead was because it was easier for me to find the text there and just change it. I didn't base my edits off the Doom 1 or 2 versions of the EXEs because I couldn't figure out how to get them to launch REKKR.EXE instead, plus having to manually change the episode labels in the network game screen. Given that I could just include Deathmanager instead, I decided to just use Chex Quest's setup EXE since it would just close when you saved settings instead of launching the game, not to mention there was no networking menus to change.

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5 hours ago, MrFlibble said:

But there's always doom-vanille and FastDoom, the problem would be to bake the DeHackEd changes into them, but since the source is available in both cases, then maybe make those changes at source level and call it a day?

I remember asking ax-doomer about the dehacked offsets for doom-vanille, but he never got back to me on that. I wonder if it's still compatible with IPXSETUP and SERSETUP...

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But speaking of vanilla stuff, I noticed that there's some visplane overflows on one of the deathmatch arenas in episode 3. Are there any plans to fix this?

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2 hours ago, OpenRift said:

But speaking of vanilla stuff, I noticed that there's some visplane overflows on one of the deathmatch arenas in episode 3. Are there any plans to fix this?

There are now. Which arena? 

Edit: I just went through and checked them with the visplane explorer, and I may have already fixed it. Didn't see any overflows anywhere. But if you remember where it was I'll look again.

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22 hours ago, MrFlibble said:

Heheh, yeah, that's certainly true, but with the limited selection of DOS ports that have build-in DEH file support, I fancy this makes for a "strength" on its own too. Although makes me wonder if the new episode could yet take advantage of the extra map features as well.

 

I'd say that the whole vanilla appeal and importance was only relevant for so long as REKKR remained a PWAD, but if it's going to get its own binary there's no reason why it shouldn't make use of more features if they're there

If Revae is willing to do so, i say yes. But it would take quite a rework to take advantage of MBF features for REKKR alone.

 

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New episode isn't using any new features. It's essentially done. I'm just tweaking and fixing now. And I'm too close to finished to do anything else with it.
As an aside, and only tangentially related to REKKR: 

GZDoom multiplayer frontend. Seems to work fine. You still have to type in the server address and such, but it's a little simpler. Plan on tossing a paired down version in with REKKR, but this is a more general use one.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/a8hmucy6ct50eah/GZDoom_MP_GUI.zip/file

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