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HUNdebLeonidasX

list of the Top 10 best doom wad (your choice)

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Everybody have their top 10 doom wad but I would like to see a list that shows the common favorite wads!

I wonder anyone of you know the website "thetoptens".
It's a site where you can make costume top list, and others can add more things to the list or vote to their favorite to get a better position on the list.

I recently made a new list:
http://www.thetoptens.com/doom-wads/
(it's not represent my opinion, I just tried to add wads that are popular)

You only need to register here (less than 1 minute) Then vote to your favorit or expand the list with your favorites.

Enjoy :)




(sorry for the english)

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I can't believe Valiant is number one. Probably a recency bias. The best PWad is Scythe 1. Not a fan of custom monsters in doom wads. Except for the likes of Neodoom. Don't get me wrong Valiant is a great achievement in Wad making. I personally didn't connect with it though.

Edit: I just found a version of Valiant without the monsters. Wish I would of known this existed lol.

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Tactical Stiffy said:

Edit: I just found a version of Valiant without the monsters. Wish I would of known this existed lol.


this was a nice idea, yah. Even though it was designed for mod compatibility, it had the nice side-effect of being much more appealing to those (including myself) who are inexplicably turned off by custom mobs :), I wonder if AA will receive the same treatment?

For whatever reason I'm ok with afrits however, all those yesteryears spent on scythe 2 I guess. fuck mr. X though.

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Ribbiks said:

For whatever reason I'm ok with afrits however, all those yesteryears spent on scythe 2 I guess. fuck mr. X though.


Yeah fuck those marines. I probably got killed by those the most in Scythe 2, even more than the afrits.

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Completely agree with Valiant being #1, with the custom monsters being a big reason for that. I was honestly disappointed that skillsaw went back to mostly vanilla in AA.

Voros said:

Where's BTSX?


Not in any top 10 list, where it belongs.

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rileymartin said:

Not in any top 10 list, where it belongs.


We have controversy already!

I'll have to respectfully disagree with rileymartin and cite BTSX E1 as my favorite megawad of all time. It's gorgeous, has incredible music, and it's easy as fuck, which makes it a top choice for relaxing replays. But even though it's easy, the gameplay remains engaging on UV-pistol.

Looking over the list, I can't help thinking that some vast community derangement is responsible for Alien Vendetta's #3 showing, as I'm finding it an extraordinarily mediocre megawad. I'm halfway through, and it's obvious that it won't suddenly turn into a super-masterpiece at the end.

But controversy is what makes these lists fun! ;)

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SteveD said:

Looking over the list, I can't help thinking that some vast community derangement is responsible for Alien Vendetta's #3 showing, as I'm finding it an extraordinarily mediocre megawad. I'm halfway through, and it's obvious that it won't suddenly turn into a super-masterpiece at the end.


I was always under the impression that AV was widely considered to be one the best megawads of all time in the community. It's certainly up there in the idgames popularity list and also up there for speedrunning demos. Not to mention all the authors that were heavily influenced by it.

And my BTSX comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I did enjoy it.

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SteveD said:

Looking over the list, I can't help thinking that some vast community derangement is responsible for Alien Vendetta's #3 showing, as I'm finding it an extraordinarily mediocre megawad. I'm halfway through, and it's obvious that it won't suddenly turn into a super-masterpiece at the end.


If you think that's community derangement then look at the #7 spot to see Hell Revealed, which is a downright bad wad. Sure it's difficulty may have been influential to other mappers to make hard wads of their own, but it seems like people voted based off of wads that they have heard of & not what is actually good or not.

And just so everybody knows Pirate Doom is best wad :D

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It's Scythe for me too, closely followed by it's predecessor, BTSX and PL2.

I also agree that AV and HR aren't great Wads, in fact same goes for MM, which I also think is overrated.

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SteveD said:

Looking over the list, I can't help thinking that some vast community derangement is responsible for Alien Vendetta's #3 showing, as I'm finding it an extraordinarily mediocre megawad. I'm halfway through, and it's obvious that it won't suddenly turn into a super-masterpiece at the end.

That's a surprising statement from you, Steve, as you are one of those who pretty much followed the evolution of PWADs and saw things slowly rise to their future prominence.

I don't give a rat's ass about ratings and lists, but speaking of AV in particular - it's very easy to disregard 'classic' mapset judging it from today's perspective, BTSX you like to mention so much is a recent mapset, so much time has passed, so many things have changed since AV's release that it's not really fair comparing the two even though they're both vanilla (another thing that works in BTSX' favor is completely new texture set, imagine it with stock plus a bunch more and it will surely lose a significant part of its visual appeal).
So, let's try to put subjectivity and modern values aside and dissect AV from the grand pespective: it's a community megawad that's inevitably got to have a definite amount of inconsistency due to a number of contributing authors each having his own style, yet at the same time it's varied, it's challenging and it's beautifully made, it doesn't look like crap even today, nearly 15 years after its release. Each theme it turns to is well-executed and memorable, pushing the limits that existed back then to its extremes, and there are many maps that leave the lasting impression not only because of their visuals and atmospheric vibe, but also because some folks (like Johnsen) weren't afraid of punching players into their teeth from time to time. From this perspective, the challenge felt incorporated into the whole picture more organically than it was in HR and - later - HR2. Adventure, exploration, attrition, slaughter - AV's got them all without explicitly relying on any on those.

And what do we have? The number of vanilla mapsets after AV and to this day is really low. Ksutra? Plutonia 2? Scythe? Well, yes, and each one of them is great in its own way but to say that AV wasn't influential to them would be a lie. Then again, I wouldn't say that AV is worse than those, be it the gameplay or the aesthetics. Every one of those has its ups and downs, no exceptions.

So in the end - anyone is free to make their own - totally sibjective - judgement on AV and say how much they don't like some of its fights and how much some of the maps suck, objectively it was a great achievement back in the day, is still notable today when it comes to impressive vanilla mapping with lots of cool stuff and big scale, and it's an essential pillar in Doom mapping in general that influenced very, very many, and in many ways. I don't like some popular PWADs, myself, but I'm never going to deny their importance for the community because of my own personal preferences. Likewise, I'm not saying that AV is flawless, no, not even close. Nothing is.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

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Good, nuanced input from Demonologist here, so I'll just add to it:

Popularity is not determined solely by quality, sometimes stuff get way more credit than it deserves, other times quality work drops into obscurity simply because the author didn't luck out with his timing, or didn't do a good job getting his work noticed. Lasting influence is maybe more of a guiding line as far as importance goes (and less subjective), and one can say what one want about the early projects compared to modern ones - but stuff like Hell Revealed left a permanent imprint on what came after it.

Doom mapping has certainly evolved since the early 2k's. Keep in mind that a good portion of Alien Vendetta was constructed as far back as 1996-99. At the time of release, few solid megawads existed besides the already established classics (Eternal Doom, Memento Mori 1/2, Requiem, Strife, Hell Revealed, Icarus and a few others).

Unless you're a mapper from those early days, you will have a hard time appreciating the effort that went into something like AV map20, or Eternal Doom map 04. You had no automated VPO or HOM checker, no fancy tools to effectively copy and rotate sectors w/o massive adjustments. Most of AV was designed with DEU2 and Deth - tools that were very crude and gnarly to use compared to something like Doombuilder. Imagine manually checking AV20 for VPO's, not to mention the load time and the build time on old systems.

I think AV still holds up fairly well because of the exhausting testing that went into it, certainly far more than any project predating it. At the time (and still, I might add) it's rare to see a megawad that has all the skill settings implemented - with finetuned multiplayer settings and planned shortcuts that let you jump back into the action after a spawn, or that do not suffer from multiple coop intrusive one way traps and screwups.

Sure, the layouts were less advanced than what you get in the delicious BTSX's of today, more linear and with some debatable monster placements here and there, a lack of thematic consistency and the occasional dud map. Many of the maps have quirks that will be lost on you if you're not doing them for a compet-n styled run too, I could go into a lengthy list of stuff that would seem weird at first glance and then make perfect sense if you're trying to accomplish a certain run (like the hidden exit berserk pack in map17) but that would be excess info here.

Making a "most popular" list is always good fun. Each generation of mapping and modding improves on some level on the former, with a few roadbumps or stagnating trends like "lets make a purple copy-paste cathedral with 5000 monsters and no gameplay testing" - stuff I attribute to talented, vocal contributors with a high output which appeal to a certain bracket of players who do not request or give a shit in skill 2 and 3, nor balanced gameplay - as long as there's striking colors and lots of stuff to spam. (Nope, this is not a knock against "Ancient Aliens", which to me is a superbly fresh breath of air and an instant classic).

Better tools and more reference material to pick from obviously contributes to the improvements seen in modern mapping. Different tastes and subjective opinions will always beat "objective" quality and polish though. If one is completely honest about the map quality in the ever popular Scythe, much can be said about the simplistic designs, lack of fine tuned skillsettings beyond a decent UV setting, and so on - but the appeal is undeniable despite the hasty work that it was. It's just no competition if one compare Scythe to say BTSX in terms of design quality of the maps and the time put into them. Yet, the fast-food appeal of Scythe makes it a lasting classic and many will prefer it over the other. Quality and mass appeal are two different things, most "classics" have some of both, and were fortunate enough with their timing to leave a lasting impression.

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The difficulties of mapping with DETH are, in my opinion, overrated. It was a very solid toolset. Certainly far more solid than some of the junk SteveD used :)

AV has definitely not aged well IMO. I remember thinking highly of it when I played it back in '02, but playing it for the DWMC this month has shown that it has some pretty major flaws. Mind you, the DMWC playthroughs of Requiem and MM1 showed that they also had plenty of issues, too.

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Capellan said:

The difficulties of mapping with DETH are, in my opinion, overrated. It was a very solid toolset. Certainly far more solid than some of the junk SteveD used :)

AV has definitely not aged well IMO. I remember thinking highly of it when I played it back in '02, but playing it for the DWMC this month has shown that it has some pretty major flaws. Mind you, the DMWC playthroughs of Requiem and MM1 showed that they also had plenty of issues, too.



Hi Adam!

Deth was certainly a fine upgrade from DEU2 - but hugely time consuming compared to Doombuilder, which I'm having a blast with now. Good for its time as Deth was, it's basically possible to do the same work in a few hours that would have taken me days back then. That is not a case of doubt, but a mere fact. VPO hunting was also extremely time consuming, and more or less an impossible task to perfect.

I disagree with your assessment of AV not aging well. I'm working on a full game run these days I'm still having a blast with it when played continuously - especially the first episode is very well fine tuned for that kind of play. It bogs down somewhat in the larger spencer maps and through episode 3. I also have to wonder if you really put enough hours into it to fairly appreciate the skill settings, or the multiplayer setting. Many of the maps have carefully planned maxkill setups that make them more fun on replays and with a planned route, than from casual playstarts - a point one can certainly argue works against its mainstream appeal.

As far as Reqiuem and MM goes, I think it's highly unfair to compare the production effort behind those to that of AV, which received extensive testing and polish and was not rushed out the door like Requiem.

I've had fun reading up the DW Megawad Roast thread, and tho I do not agree with most of your input in it, its an enjoyable read with some good points. One of the sticking points of your dislikes seem to be an inability to backtrack in several of the maps, for instance - which is just not factually correct. Perhaps you feel 1.9 mapping in general has not aged well? Granted, there's several maps I'd be keen to replace if it was a release by today's standards :) Anyway - this is sidetracking, and better left for the playthrough thread!

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Great points Demonologist, I guess for me personally the only reason I could never enjoy AV (for the most part anyway) was the extremely linear map layouts and progression. There is of course no denying the influence and sheer talent and skill that the maps project through detail and interesting gameplay scenarios, especially for the time. I always just run through the maps with no monsters on just to sight see, there is a lot to learn from the levels.

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Andy Johnsen said:

Perhaps you feel 1.9 mapping in general has not aged well?


I definitely wouldn't go that far, not least because I simply haven't played enough stuff (particularly recently) to make a fair judgement. Also I think there's a lot of subjectivity in mapping, so it's fine if people like stuff that I don't, or vice versa.

As far as backtracking problems in AV go, I only remember mentioning them twice, and I still don't see how you can get back from the far side of the lava platforms in map16.

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I love the first eleven maps of Alien Vendetta... it's within my meagre skill level on UV, Hillside Siege is a gem, Beast Island's mood is gorgeous and Toxic Touch is such a lovely adventure (and along with Misri Halek seems to influence one of my favourite WADs of all, Epic 2) that I really enjoy the early maps. Map 12 then ticks around and suddenly I'm firing incredibly heavy weaponry at waves of tomatoes and boss monsters and the experience is dead for me - I'm a dark corridor hugger not a slaughter player.

That's not my real critical observation about AV, though - if people like vicious combat then who am I to say it's not valid? my main complaint with the set is the choice of music - lots of IWAD and TNT choices used in rather unspectacular ways, sort of disappointing to me. I'm willing to be convinced by the set's designers that the music fits perfectly but it certainly doesn't suit me!

on topic: ALT, Epic 2, ESP, BTSX E2, Sacrament

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I want to avoid the flame war. As I mentioned: The list is not mean to be represent my oppinion I just collected a few from the well known wads.

The list can be easily modified just register than vote to your favorite one. the more vote belongs to the wad the better place that the wad receives it.

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Scythe 2 is still one of my favorites wad's but I can't justify it in my top three looking at the complete package. It's so much fun for the first 20 maps then just bogs down and becomes completely anti-fun for the final few episodes.

So difficult to form a top list because of the different era's in doom mapping but im really happy that the grindiness is way down. Like sunlust is damn hard but it's easy to replay and way more fun than Ep's 5 + 6 in S2.

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I find it hilarious that accorrding to the popularity rankings, wow.wad is still #2 after all these years. And that wad's probably one of the longest running jokes in the community. (Though nuts.wad isn't far behind with the #5 ranking, xD)

Many of the other .wad files in the top 100 is (mostly) what you would expect to be there - a lot of high quality megawads and classics that never get old - but there are a few head scratchers there. Naturally, a wad released just this year by Romero himself quickly made its way into the top 100, too.

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Demonologist said:

That's a surprising statement from you, Steve, as you are one of those who pretty much followed the evolution of PWADs and saw things slowly rise to their future prominence.


Well, not so much as you may think. True, I started Dooming in '95, and by '96 I'd already done 6 maps for a megawad. Oddly enough, the megawad I worked on was among the very few I actually played. ;D Mostly, I played single maps and minisodes, so my memories of those days are primarily of Fava Beans, Osiris, Doomsday of UAC, Castle of The Renegades, Dawn of The Dead and so on. I had a very demanding job in those days that got more and more demanding over time, to the point where I basically stopped Dooming in 2003 and didn't come back until 2011, so I missed a LOT of Doom evolution, especially in megawads. Like, I've never played Plutonia beyond the first few maps, and probably never finished every map in MM or MM2. This is probably because I got sidetracked by work and never came back to them. Thanks to the Megawad Club, I've played a lot more megawads since I returned than I ever did before, but even at that, I usually fail to compete a mapset. Further, I've missed basically all of the classics, like Hell Revealed, both Scythes and Icarus. So when you come right down to it, I'm an oldskool Doomer but not a Doom historian.

When I started playing AV this month, I was under the impression that I'd never played it before, but I soon recognized some stuff here and there, and on Map11, I recognized the whole map.

If you've followed the thread, you know I hated Map11, and you know I also hated it in 2002, and I speculate that this map was what killed AV for me. Keep in mind, for me, AV was just another megawad back then. It wasn't a legend yet. I probably was interested because of Anthony Soto, one of my all-time favorite mappers, and he didn't disappoint in Hillside Siege, made with Lee Szymanski. That's a great map, and as I said, it's like a map from the future somehow transported to 2002.

If you look at some of the detail architecture in Hillside Siege, especially those places where stumpy wooden poles hold up massive weights of concrete, you may see echoes of a '90s mapper, Michael Krause. If you are not familiar with Krause, just play Moon 2000, his final vanilla map, released in 1997. Look at that final arena with the Cyb fight and then the Mastermind. In the latter, you'll see an example of vast weights held up by thick, stubby supports, and the arena itself is a masterpiece of vanilla architecture. You wonder how the hell he did it without getting HOMs. It's like looking at a modern epic-architecture map done with a retro feel. I always talk about Krause because so many people, it seems, never heard of him, but IMO he was so far ahead in his Bauhaus/Lego architecture that it took the rest of the field almost a decade to catch up. And lucky me, I was one of his playtesters from Do The Job onwards, although he only gave me credit once. But any time people talk as if all of us '90s mappers were brain-dead incompetents, I always say, "Michael Krause existed back then, so STFU." ;D Probably tons of mappers are using Krause techniques without knowing it, because they were inspired by someone, who was inspired by someone else, who was inspired by yet another person who actually played a Krause map and copied some of the techniques.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this -- there was some great shit in the '90s, and I'm well familiar with the agonies we went through using the first wave of editors, though in my case, despite what Adam says, Hellmaker was a very advanced editor for us Mac guys. It had issues with stability, especially once maps got really big, but it also had a rotatable 3D view with simple shading -- not textures like in DB2 -- which helped to inspire the verticality in my maps. So, going on a purely '90s perspective, what I've played so far in AV was solid work, with some beautiful maps -- Hillside Siege, Toxic Touch and parts of Killer Colours. There was also a more extensive use of gradient lighting than was common back then. I first used gradient lighting in '97, for example, but in limited areas rather than all over the place like Vorpal's AV maps. I haven't reached Misri Halek yet, so I look forward to seeing what Malde accomplished architecturally. I've enjoyed his architecture so far, but not his gameplay. We'll see if that continues. But the bottom line is that I stopped playing AV in 2002 because I was bored by Map11, and probably by the entire Map08 thru Map11 sequence, just as I was this time. Indeed, that group of maps, plus Killer Colours, is the primary reason I'm calling the megawad mediocre. I'm having much more fun in Vorpal's maps. Too bad I didn't play those back in the day. ;)

On the BTSX issues, you're right about the textures. Although there's a lot of sector detail in those maps for vanilla, the highly-detailed textures really sell the immersive, industrial appearance of that mapset. Then there's also the deep knowledge of the engine which allows tricks that were either completely unknown or not widely known in the '90s. I'm sure I'd still be very impressed with these maps if they used stock resources, but it's at least conceivable that the easy gameplay would have bothered me if not matched with the stunning new textures. But BTSX E2 also has a great texture set, yet I didn't really like it so much because the gameplay shifted from Hitscanner to Meat and also a lot of heavy ledge snipers. So now it takes a lot longer to kill the enemies, there's ammo starvation issues, extensive clean-up, grindiness, and all the other things I find unpleasant in The Meat Game. And in a strange irony, BTSX E1 is supposed to mimic the difficulty of AV E1, while BTSX E2 is supposed to mimic the difficulty of AV E2. Now, I didn't much enjoy AV E1, but loved BTSX E1. I'm enjoying AV E2, but disliked BTSX E2. I must admit, I find this amusing. :D

It really is all subjective, isn't it? :)

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