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andrewj

OBLIGE 7.50 released!

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Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'll bunch up all my replies into this post....

Q/ no lighting variation
A/ individual rooms get different light levels, but the same level is generally used over the whole room. I'm still thinking about how to improve that without every room becoming a "lighting salad".

Q/ more limited number of texturing themes
A/ maybe, I don't know, been a long time since I used 6.20

Q/ make map names dependant on what elements are present
A/ would be nice, but it's really hard to do

Q/ the "traps" variable
A/ controls how often traps are used, and I think the quantity. The number of monsters per trap is not affected.

Q/ interconnectivity
A/ not possible yet, but improving that is a goal

Q/ spawned a bunch of Revenants way back in an area I had no reason to ever visit again
A/ Oblige does not "know" that a monster closet is in part of a room that the player won't visit again. That is hard to check for

Q/ Is there a setting to make preferred weapons appear near the start location?
A/ no -- it would need new code (and perhaps even a new module) to support that

Q/ lmao does it generate titlepics?
A/ yes, and they will rock the world

Q/ I especially miss the canyon-like outdoor "caves"
A/ they often looked quite good, but could be hard to play without any cover anywhere. I hope to generate something better one day

Q/ has system that economies the file size of the map files too
A/ like what? I dunno what you mean

Q/ (G)ZDoom use the full TGA coloration palette titlepics
A/ depends, if it requires creating PNG format then I won't bother

Q/ In E2M5 and E4M2, the exits seem to be swapped (the normal exit was hidden in a secret while the secret exit was out in the open
A/ I will check that

Q/ the "quiet start" setting gone?
A/ yes, start rooms can be very big now, it seemed bad to have absolutely nothing going on in them

Q/ no 3D floors
A/ due to the new way of generating levels. I plan to support them again, later

Q/ dropped hexen support
A/ I need to get DOOM working really well before considering other games. Version 4.28 supported lots of games but the levels were really poor -- I consider that a mistake now.

Lastly, Glaice mentioned translating to non-English languages. Yes, that would be appreciated! The basic method to do it is to copy the file language/TEMPLATE.txt to a "PO" file whose name is the ISO 639-1 language code. For example "ru.po" for Russian, "de.po" for German, etc.... then edit it (with a text editor or PO editor) to fill out all the translations for the strings. Best place to discuss this and post any translations is on the OBLIGE forums.

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I find it silly you would remove the OPTION for quiet starts simply because it would remove too many monsters.

More options are always better yo. Same goes for "detailed rooms" as a tick, and other stuff removed. Unless its actively getting in the way of new stuff being implemented, why remove it?

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It seems great! I do wish that it would delete unused sectors outside the play area - I'm guessing all levels start out as rectangles that get subdivided or something? It makes looking at the automap seem weird.

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andrewj said:

Q/ (G)ZDoom use the full TGA coloration palette titlepics
A/ depends, if it requires creating PNG format then I won't bother



Oddly, ZDoom ports do support TGA but for some strange reason the program converts the inter/titlepic to Doom format, which is strictly in the 256 color palette and makes some of the pictures used look ugly, namely ones with heavy use of blues and greens.

I can understand the use of converting the TGA files to Doom image format for Boom based ports but palette downscaling is not necessary for the ZDoom family ports, especially the GL ports where you can see the originals in their full color glory.

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Some more observations:

- I think weapon frequency interacts weirdly with the "Traps" setting. If it's set to Heaps then weapon pickups become much rarer (and always trapped). It's like increasing the frequency of traps actively reduces the amount of non-trapped pickups in the map.

- The exit very often generates only a short distance away from the start, with a very quick key/switch progression to it, and most of the map being entirely optional.

- Staying with the exit, the switch is often close to the entrance of the exit room, with the rest of it containing enemies and pickups like a normal room would. The bigger the room is, the more noticeable this becomes, and since the exit room is generated just like any other room, it can become very big indeed.

- Monster frequency is very uneven. Less only makes for a fun experience on Small maps (and then only barely, most of the mapsets I generated since the one I uploaded were really boring), and Scarce doesn't really work as a playable map at all. On the other side, there's often barely any difference between Hordes and Nuts!, especially in small rooms.

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I doesn't map in ZDoom (Doom in UDMF Format), does it? All of the ZDoom maps I generated was ZDoom (Doom in Doom format).

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RottKing said:

My only suggestion is to have an option for inescapable death pits, that'd rule.

I don't know... wouldn't that violate the traditional id-style map guidelines?

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what guidelines? I'm pretty sure every official doom game had inescapable death pits. E1M3 had one right at the start, as well as one later on (the outside of the pit you can raise), MAP06 had plenty, there was one right at the start on MAP18, among other places. Certainly inescapable pits are rarer than the escapable kind, but I think it would be silly to say there's a hard rule against it.

and you can't claim this is a sandyman thing or whatever because E1M3 was made by john romero.

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This is 2016. A few MB for some automatically generated fun shouldn't even cause you to bat an eyelid anymore. If it's that big of an issue, take note of the seed & settings, then delete the WAD.

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Noticing a small issue on occasion with Oblige's shadows (which by the way are a really nice touch). Occasionally a small bright appears in the shadow, this seems to be because the generator places a teleporter trap destination there, creating a small sector for the destination, but this small sector doesn't get the shadow brightness. The destination sector is still split by the shadow lines though, so this seems like it would be possible to fix.

Overall though this is pretty fun. Maybe not the smartest levels ever, but they're enough for a quick romp. While they aren't all that amazing, I'll admit, but things like the randomly generated titlescreens just add an additional touch to this that completes the whole experience.

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Sure that oblige it became truly awesome as making generated maps, eh?



A short map pack for boom after i messed around with the settings, played by me (on zandronum) for an hour where i dying a fucking lot fighting tons and tons of chaingunners and reverants in narrow lifts.

Also, i cheated sometimes in that hard situations. Meh.

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HavoX said:

I don't know... wouldn't that violate the traditional id-style map guidelines?


I recall a guideline against inescapable pits that don't have damaging floors, but not one for inescapable pits with them.

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Well, i got one map filled to the brim with cacoes and nothing but shells and one wich started me with an angry cyberdemon bloking my way before my first weapon was given, but over all is not bad at all... Also after a while you may start to notice a lack of variety on the prefab side, but i guess more variety can be added at later date.

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@Walter: Consider upping the bitrate on your video the next time you make a video, I can see boxing/artifacting often. That and quicksaving before harsh parts would help with frustration.

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Another big bunch of replies, heh.....

Q/ In E2M5 and E4M2, the exits seem to be swapped (the normal exit was hidden in a secret while the secret exit was out in the open).
A/ confirmed that this bug occurs, mainly in small maps (ones with exactly two rooms).

Q/ More options are always better yo. Same goes for "detailed rooms" as a tick, and other stuff removed.
A/ Well more options is more stuff to test, so development is slower and more boring, and more chance of combinations that don't work together. Anyway, I thought a monster or two in the start room, quite far from where you start, would not bother anyone, but I was wrong on that.

Q/ I do wish that it would delete unused sectors outside the play area - I'm guessing all levels start out as rectangles that get subdivided or something?
A/ marking border areas as no-draw for automap would be good, kinda an oversight (as the V6 prefabs had that). You guess wrong about the generation process, earlier versions worked that way but V7 "grows" rooms in a rather organic way.

Q/ My only suggestion is to have an option for inescapable death pits, that'd rule
A/ heh, ok!

Q/ It's like increasing the frequency of traps actively reduces the amount of non-trapped pickups in the map
A/ you are surprised that increasing the "traps" setting means having more trapped items? Maybe you can tell me what other kinds of traps you expected?

Q/ The exit very often generates only a short distance away from the start, with a very quick key/switch progression to it, and most of the map being entirely optional
A/ I have not tested "small" maps much, but on "regular" and larger it is quite rare that a large chunk of the map is optional

Q/ Staying with the exit, the switch is often close to the entrance of the exit room
A/ Again, in my testing the exit switch is nearly always as far from the entrance as possible

Q/ I doesn't map in ZDoom (Doom in UDMF Format), does it?
A/ It only makes normal Doom format, but not Hexen-in-Doom (though it probably will later), and not UDMF (probably never for UDMF)

Q/ I mean wil OBLIGE use method to make maps,but the .wad file size to be smaller and not overhaul the disk space
A/ well the wad files are already as small as possible, there is no wasted space in them.

Q/ Occasionally a small bright appears in the shadow, this seems to be because the generator places a teleporter trap destination there,
A/ Yeah, there's a few aesthetic issues with those spots, I may need to find a better way to do it

Q/ but i guess more variety can be added at later date
A/ yeah I plan to

Q/ It seems like traps will sometimes send in arachnotrons that immediately get stuck in tight spaces
A/ one of those things that is really hard to prevent

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Guest DILDOMASTER666

I imagine this isn't really a concern to 99% of people, but I would be highly interested in an option to automatically join/omit identical sectors, if possible.

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andrewj said:

Q/ I do wish that it would delete unused sectors outside the play area - I'm guessing all levels start out as rectangles that get subdivided or something?
A/ marking border areas as no-draw for automap would be good, kinda an oversight (as the V6 prefabs had that). You guess wrong about the generation process, earlier versions worked that way but V7 "grows" rooms in a rather organic way.


It's not whether they are drawn or not that's the problem, it's that currently all area around a map in a rectangle shape is filled with decorative sectors, even if there are no outdoor rooms on the edge of the map to see them from (plus, usually you can't see them even if there are outdoor rooms, because the floor of the room is so much lower than those sectors).

andrewj said:

Q/ It's like increasing the frequency of traps actively reduces the amount of non-trapped pickups in the map
A/ you are surprised that increasing the "traps" setting means having more trapped items? Maybe you can tell me what other kinds of traps you expected?


You don't understand, I'm saying that increasing the frequency of traps generates less items overall in the map. Like, normally there are some trapped and some non-trapped items in a map. Increasing the frequency of traps should change some of the non-trapped ones to trapped and that's all, right? But instead, it seems to also delete some more of the non-trapped items.

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Glaice said:

@Walter: Consider upping the bitrate on your video the next time you make a video, I can see boxing/artifacting often. That and quicksaving before harsh parts would help with frustration.


Ok, i just need to find out how to do that (raising the bit rate) with OpenBroadCast...

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Fisk said:

but I would be highly interested in an option to automatically join/omit identical sectors, if possible

why?

Solarn said:

It's not whether they are drawn or not that's the problem, it's that currently all area around a map in a rectangle shape is filled with decorative sectors, even if there are no outdoor rooms on the edge of the map to see them

if automap clutter is not the problem, then what *is* the problem?

You don't understand, I'm saying that increasing the frequency of traps generates less items overall in the map.

Ah, well there is not meant to be any correlation, but I will build a megawad or two with traps set to NONE and traps set to HEAPS and see if the number of free-standing items changes.....

P.S. there is a possibility that more monster closets causes a few more items being unable to be placed anywhere, but I will run some tests to check it.

P.P.S. naturally more traps = more monster closets = less secret closets, but I presume you were not talking about items in secret closets, right?

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I ran some tests and found no difference on the number of non-secret nice items for traps=NONE and traps=HEAPS.

So I reckon you were talking about items in secret closets, which *is* affected by the number of traps, because the number of closets in a map is fixed and hence more monster closets = less possible secret closets.

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andrewj said:

I ran some tests and found no difference on the number of non-secret nice items for traps=NONE and traps=HEAPS.

So I reckon you were talking about items in secret closets, which *is* affected by the number of traps, because the number of closets in a map is fixed and hence more monster closets = less possible secret closets.


I wasn't talking about secret closets, I'm terrible at finding those anyway. I'm running some tests myself to be sure, but so far it does seem like you are right. Weird, I definitely remember being very item-starved when I generated a megawad with traps set to Heaps.

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Sorry, assumed too much again.

Maps can vary a lot, and sometimes it's hard to tell if something is a real problem is just a run of bad luck.

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