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Spectre01

Bad maps in good wads

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shotfan said:

Then again, not everyone shares my hatred for Doom 2's The Chasm, so a different poison for each one, I guess.

I can't stand that last part of Chasm (the bit after that teleporter), not so much the map as a whole.

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Probably Map11 of Plutonia 2. Because it's tiresome, and again targeted on arch-viles all over the place.

Also half of Eternal Doom maps, they just a boring switch hunting.

Ichor said:

I can't stand that last part of Chasm (the bit after that teleporter), not so much the map as a whole.


Chasm is not bad, it's just ugly.

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Ichor said:

I can't stand that last part of Chasm (the bit after that teleporter), not so much the map as a whole.

This is EXACTLY why I find this map irredeemable. If not for that, it might be a decent map with its memorable gimmick of thin platforms, which I do not mind on their own. But the combination of teleport ambush, no cover, small ledges and inescapable pit makes it insufferable. Never again.

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A simple teleporter in the slime of the final area would have made it much more bearable. The one silver lining is that, if you can make it to the exit area fast enough, a platform raises and makes it a lot easier to work with.

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Hadephobia MAP19.
Yeah, a classic example of planning grandiose and finishing particularly rushed.

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Map 26 and 27 in Scythe 2. They are what made me addicted to Doom.

Sacrilegium Surrexit from HYMN. Fucking amazing.

Z1M7 from KDIZD. Everything I love in a Doom map. Really big, complicated, lots of passages and has terrific atmosphere. Shame about some of the other maps, they haven't aged well.

Map 26 from Whispers of Satan. I really like the music.

There are others too but I forgot them for the moment.

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@DooM_RO: Wrong thread m8? Seems like you're talking about maps you like.

Never been a huge fan of Sunlust map23. Feels like the weakest map of the third episode with very low-key Berserk/ammo-starvation gameplay and some awkward geometry/platforming sections.

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The two Overlord missions in Stronghold (STR21 and STR25, I believe they were). Excellent mapping work, but I wasn't a fan of the gameplay style in them.

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I'm aware that the Master Levels are not a 'wad', and that some would dispute that as a whole they are 'good', but anyway I just want to put in a bad word for 'The Garrison' level (wad).

I find the layout of the map pretty good, and it provides a reasonable challenge combat-wise on UV, but the key setup on this level is a joke. Firstly on finding the red key, I spent the best part of an hour looking for a red door (there isn't one) - my fault I know, should have made use of the automap. Then was completely floored by the switch controlling access to the teleporter which leads to the blue key switch: did the level creator deliberately place it next to a lift to fool the player, or was it just thoughtlessness? It's the yellow key that takes the biscuit though - there's no way it can be reached normally, and it was only after watching Altima Mantoid's Youtube video that I eventually got it by resorting to some sort of strafe running (even that was messy, overshot several times). Pretty much any player trying to get this key unaided would have to conclude that there was a teleporter or switch concealed elsewhere in the level, and would probably waste an hour or two searching for it before giving up....

How did this map make it into the Master Levels? I've played Christen Klie's rejected maps, and pretty much any of them would have been better than this, notably the excellent 'The Hive'.

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*wipes away tears* I shan't hear another careless word about E4M2! I simply shan't!

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For the second time in just over 24 hours I've had a depressing experience while doing a run through of the Master Levels. This time it was the 'invisible walkway' gimmick, the discovery of which is essential to getting the yellow key in the Vesperas map. Dr Sleep's other levels in this collection were really well constructed and enjoyable to play, and I just can't see why talented people like him find it necessary to use such cheap tricks to screw around with honest gamers who just want a hard but fair challenge. I wonder what further nasty surprises the Master Levels might hold?

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Not often that I hate a level to the point of idcleving past it, but one level that particularly stands out as awful for me is MAP28 from Hell Revealed II. Its gameplay is the epitome of tedium, as far as I'm concerned.

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Someone already mentioned it, 4th map of ALT. I really, really hate running through path of tiny platforms while avoiding cybie's rockets. It's appaling because ALT has great atmosphere and character, but such gimmick absolutely spoils the fun.

Hacx is imo very underrated megawad but yeah, those "cyberspace" levels are terrible.

Honorary mention goes to Doom II and The Chasm. 

Edited by R13

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I think it's MAP31 of D2TWID. Because I can not find this damn secret exit after hours of wandering.

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On 3/14/2017 at 3:06 AM, Mason. said:

Not often that I hate a level to the point of idcleving past it, but one level that particularly stands out as awful for me is MAP28 from Hell Revealed II. Its gameplay is the epitome of tedium, as far as I'm concerned.

I watched the first 24 seconds and it was already too tedious... I feel ya.

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D2twid Map09 made me ragequit for being a low-effort piece of shit.

 

@Spectre01You can dislike Sunlust Map23 for being worst in best megawad, but if that one appeared anywhere else, it would be perceived as minimally 7/10 map. Also, they should have kept snow in map21-24.

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On 10/5/2016 at 1:38 PM, HorrorMovieGuy said:

Alien Vendetta, MAP20.
It's too long, confusing and even after playing it a thousand times I still have trouble navigating it. This is the map that usually kills any coop server in multiplayer ports like ZDaemon and Zandronum, because most people get bored, lost and frustrated.

That's by far my favorite level in AV and one of the greatest Doom levels of all time. How do so many people get lost in it anyway, when the map goes out of its way to consistently steer you in the right direction? You have to ignore everything the map is trying to tell you and go wander off in random directions to be unable to find your way. But then again I'm the guy who thinks "Darkdome" from Eternal Doom is the greatest level of all time, so...

 

My turn:

 

Doom II

 

map24. Everyone knows why, even the people who like it.

 

map25 of course for the "babby's first map" aspect, and because Shawn Green never seemed to have finished it, just tacking on that end room as a "fuck it, we ship in two weeks and this will do". Adding an archvile to the other side of the room to have the game's only two-AV fight might have made it a bit more interesting, I guess?

 

Eternal Doom

All the Dia Westerteicher levels in Eternal Doom. They look terrible, have awkward gameplay and weak layouts, and the puzzle aspect is simultaneously less complex and more obscure than Sverre Kvernmo or Chris Couleur's maps. "Pistol Only" might be the worst of them because it has that fucking idiotic faux-Baroque midi on top of all its other sins. J.S. Bach would be pissed.

 

"Halls of Disarray" (map32) is a straight-up terrible level, unfinished and ugly, and despite it being booted from the map15 slot for Eternal Doom III, they forced people to play it anyway by putting the secret levels into the regular rotation. Shameful.

 

Requiem

"Militant Reprisal" (map12) is a hideous clusterfuck seemingly made of bits of several unrelated maps stuck together. The various areas have no visual or gameplay relationship to one another and it is probably the largest map in the entire set.

 

"The Forsaken Hall" (map20) should have been called "The Obvious Filler" because that's what it is. Short, ugly, easy, boring, a complete waste of a map slot.

 

"Den of the Skull" (map21) feels like a special effects demo wad from 1994 or early 1995 padded out to "normal" map size with long noodly hallways. The only challenge comes from lack of maneuvering room in tiny, boxy hallways and the cyberdemon at the end. There is no architectural theme, no memorable fights, no engagement of spatial reasoning, it's just a collection of rooms with visual tricks in them connected by corridors. It sucks.

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Quote

That's by far my favorite level in AV and one of the greatest Doom levels of all time. How do so many people get lost in it anyway, when the map goes out of its way to consistently steer you in the right direction? You have to ignore everything the map is trying to tell you and go wander off in random directions to be unable to find your way.

@Woolie Wool the thing is, in spite of being visually beautiful, it's too long and it gets repetitive after a while. Not boring, at least for me, but for example in my experience I had to stop in a moment and do something else, because it's more linear than I can approve for myself. And still got lost a few times, backtracking for ammo is inevitable. I still liked it, I took more than 20 screenshots of that map tbh. 

 

To mention a bad map, honestly it has to make me feel like I want to cut me throat and post it on facebook. And that never happened so far. There were maps I didn't entirely enjoy, but to describe a map as bad, it's totally subjective except for truly bad maps where it's more than obvious that the mapper didn't even care about anything, and I've only seen examples of those via Youtube. So let me think, I've only played iwads and pwads that are more or less popular and usually everyone finds them amazing, and so do I. There are some maps I truly remember as "no, sorry, please rebuild it", for example:

 

Memento Mori II

 

Map 26: Base Exposure, it's like, too big, for very little action. Geometry is weird, corridors all feel the same, odd monster placement, and the secrets are lame, even when if I find a megasphere, it's like "I don't even need you!". It feels out of place, like it belongs to The Lost Episodes of Doom rather than Memento Mori II. That's what truly disappointed me. 

 

Map 28: Corporate Hell, the concept is interesting, but the monster placement is, not. It has a lot but a LOT of infinite tall hitscanners and many teleporters that take you directly to a monster's face. Plus, annoying doors and their annoying linedefs... 

 

Memento Mori

 

Map 12: Kinetics, there's a switch that activates stairs that instantly crashes you into the ceiling if you don't move. For a second I thought that was a terry trap... 

 

Alien Vendetta

 

Map 30: Point Dreadful, what the fuck with that lift, straferun50 my ass... but that voice, first time in Doom I felt someone else was in my room... 

 

And that's it for now, I don't remember anything else lol

 

Edited by galileo31dos01

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AV Map20 was a very painful experience for me. It's a very linear and enclosed map where each corner you turn there's a monster for you to kill, until the very end where you somehow get lost to find the exit. Climbing that underground hill and having to kill endless sets of Revenants + Hell Knight (which doesn't offer any threat) was one of the most boring experience I've had in Doom. I think it took me around one hour to finish it.

 

The song and atmosphere are very good, but unfortunaly that's it.

Edited by Deadwing

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Well of Souls choice from plutonia is solely because of the invisible bridge. Lets assume plutonia is the hardest content you have faced up to this point. The wall closes behind you and you face off with 2 long range revenants and 4 cacodemons converge on your position. If you freak out and move forwards you bleed out on the damaging floor or get killed over and over in the encounter. It's a very tricky and claustrophobic fight for an uninitiated player. Then you need to figure out the invisible bridge mechanic. Either you get the puzzle off the bat or you fumble around like an idiot for 10 minutes. Your reward for this puzzle? Aztec....... 

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On 2016. 10. 07. at 4:28 PM, 38_ViTa_38 said:

(...) TNT MAP09 (should it really have that many hitscanners?), 12 (very big and very empty for some reason), 18 (empty too), 20 and 21, 22 (was it even tested?), 25 (why does it even have that coop skip?), 31 because of yellow key bug.

On the "off" side, this list contains eight maps out of 32, which is a heavy 25 per cent. I'm astonished you still find TNT a good wad overall despite all a'dis.

But back to topic, I kinda agree with the aspects regarding maps 20-22. I also found myself wondering how they made the cut to an official mapset.

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TNT MAP09 is the Stronghold, right? I feel like Bruce Willis when I play that map and do well :D

 

I like that your Doom instincts tell you that you cleared the enemies for a while but nope! Then you think that's gotta be it, right? Nope!

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Alien Vendetta, map 32. The rest of the wad was slaughterish but the maps actually had an objective to them, whereas Map32 was just "KILL HUNDREDS OF MONSTERS" I think its terrible.

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On 2017-5-15 at 4:56 AM, galileo31dos01 said:

@Woolie Wool

Alien Vendetta

 

Map 30: Point Dreadful, what the fuck with that lift, straferun50 my ass... but that voice, first time in Doom I felt someone else was in my room... 

 

Off-topic, but how was that actually done?? I thought it was part of the music, and if so, that just makes it even more bizarre. How did they do that with a MIDI file??

3 hours ago, Phade102 said:

Alien Vendetta, map 32. The rest of the wad was slaughterish but the maps actually had an objective to them, whereas Map32 was just "KILL HUNDREDS OF MONSTERS" I think its terrible.

Well, it is a secret level. It's supposed to be zany.

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@Kapanyo True, but i've realized that I dont hate slaughter maps altogether, I hate slaughter maps where the objective is literally to just kill everything. You should have to kill everything to progress, but it should not be the primary objective.

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On 10/4/2016 at 10:50 PM, Marcaek said:

Anomaly Zone in Epic 2. Holy moly what a pile of steaming ass.

Astral Base was much worse. Hitscan monsters in open areas is always fun. And that tight cyberdemon fight is bullshit. 

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