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Linguica

Will Deep ever be freeware?

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Back in 1998 I figured it would become freeware "sometime soon." Guess I was wrong on that count. Are there still no plans?

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That would be something nice.. But something so very good is worth paying for, and if it were made freeware, a lot of the people who actually paid for it might feel a bit cheated out of whatever they payed for it. I know there is the set price, but for non-US residents (like myself) somethimes the exchange is murder.

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Linguica said:

Back in 1998 I figured it would become freeware "sometime soon." Guess I was wrong on that count. Are there still no plans?

LOloloLLOloloLOloLolOLOLoOloLoOLOLoLoOloLoOOLOolololOLOlol

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Linguica said:

Back in 1998 I figured it would become freeware "sometime soon." Guess I was wrong on that count. Are there still no plans?

Er why should it be?
Surely it up to the software writer what he does with it?
And its up to us the in the Doom Editing community if we want to buy it or not.

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Big_al said:

Er why should it be?
Surely it up to the software writer what he does with it?
And its up to us the in the Doom Editing community if we want to buy it or not.

Don't let us start this "discussion" once again!

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mmnpsrsoskl said:

Or, support this one. Why.


waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

i dont know python or c++

oh well

/me whips out a python tutorial and prepares to start writing scripts

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Jack still wants to make money on it, which is fine for him. Kudos -- it's quite hard work maintaining and updating a feature-packed and (largely) bug-free editor.

But, times are changing, Doom (Not III, and not just limited to editing the classic Doom.Doom2) is more of a hobbyist choice than anything, and still - mostly by the mass PC polulace, who believe that newest == best - it's looked down upon by our peers. The idea _may_ be a sound one from one perspective -- who gets parts for a clapped-out old chevy free? -- but in the world of computing an ever moving standard in software dictates that Deep's sell-by date has nearly ran out. I can't imagine Jack makes that much money at all from selling his program now.

I believe it should become free, although not just free in terms of cost - free in terms of being completely open. If Jack originally started Deep to be the very best Doom editor around with no exception, then freely avalable source code would enable people to maintain it long after he has lost interest in a project he no longer gains from, and more importantly, improve it. Who knows? Maybe this way someone will actually clear up the interface so that Deep will appeal to a wider audience, not just the patient.

Whatever, I live in an idealistic dreamworld anyway, where most things are free ('Liberty' free, not 'gratis' free).

However, to answer the question raised in the topic; I don't think it's going to be in the forseeable future. And it's a shame.

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I don't know why some people seem to think that Doom 3's release will magically stop everyone playing and editing Doom 1 & 2. I have a feeling that the first two Dooms will still be on my hard drive long after Doom 3 has been deleted from it.

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Jayextee said:

Jack still wants to make money on it, which is fine for him. Kudos -- it's quite hard work maintaining and updating a feature-packed and (largely) bug-free editor.

Actually the real reason will surprise everyone (or maybe not).

But, times are changing, Doom (Not III, and not just limited to editing the classic Doom.Doom2) is more of a hobbyist choice than anything,

Has been that way for a LONG time. IOW, times changed 4 years ago:)

Deep's sell-by date has nearly ran out. I can't imagine Jack makes that much money at all from selling his program now.

I've always said it pays about 50 cents/hr. Enough to pay for the web hosting. I may raise the price for the current version (probably to $50) and make a stripped version for $15. The stripped will NOT be modified for anything new, I don't care if it has bugs and will have all the tools ripped out. Sort of like some other editors:)

I believe it should become free,

LOL - I believe it shouldn't be free. I do believe all other software should be free though:)

although not just free in terms of cost - free in terms of being completely open. If Jack originally started Deep to be the very best Doom editor around with no exception, then freely avalable source code would enable people to maintain it long after he has lost interest in a project he no longer gains from, and more importantly, improve it. Who knows? Maybe this way someone will actually clear up the interface so that Deep will appeal to a wider audience, not just the patient.

And here's where I absolutely disagree. Nothing screws up a complicated system faster than some hackers who don't take the time to really understand a system. Cube guy has a similar philosophy (could be we're both from the same place). DEU is a prime example of how to screw up a relatively simple program using the methodology you propose. Even TODAY it still not right - which should be proof enough that your concept just doesn't fly. It's just horse pucky propagated as the "thing of the year". (No I don't want to argue this - been around too long fixing this kind of crap logic)

For that matter, why hasn't anyone fixed Windeu or modified DoomEd? See above for answer.

However, to answer the question raised in the topic; I don't think it's going to be in the forseeable future. And it's a shame.

No it's not a shame. Would you rather have something that just gets loaded with bugs from quick hackers or something that is progressively and consistently improved?

Interfaces basically boil down to what one got used to. Too bad that most people have a hard time switching to something "different". Waded is awful, yet you thought it neat. DEU is awful and lots think that's neat. IOW, no way can you change something and have it accepted. Although if I made DeePsea free I think that its interface would somehow become more popular<g>. Insinuating that one has to be "patient" is incorrect. The reason is just simple mass momentum and lack of impetus to learn - esp realizing that one would have to actually pay to use it. It's not complicated guys - I do the same thing.

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deep said:

For that matter, why hasn't anyone fixed Windeu?


BECAUSE THE CODE IS A GODDAMN FUCKING MESS!!!!!!!!!1111111111111 ARRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

sorry just needed to get that one off my shoulders

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deep said:
Nothing screws up a complicated system faster than some hackers who don't take the time to really understand a system.


True, which is why all the good open source projects are the ones with a good maintainer, preferably one with some Attitude who's prepared to send crummy patches straight to the bin. I don't see anyone here saying you should just drop it on idgames with a PD license and a big "For Lame Disorganised Hackers" label on it. Certainly that would be a great loss.

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I would like to see DeepSea become free. It's an excellent editor and its popularity would only go up if it were free. But that's my opinion.

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DooMBoy said:

its popularity would only go up if it were free

I thought that everybody knew by now that the Deep team does not care about popularity...

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deep said:

I may raise the price for the current version (probably to $50) and make a stripped version for $15. The stripped will NOT be modified for anything new, I don't care if it has bugs and will have all the tools ripped out. Sort of like some other editors:)

insert flamewar here

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lament said:

insert flamewar here

Hey, if no one wants to buy is product cause it's waaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive, that's his problem.

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Archvile64 said:

Hey, if no one wants to buy is product cause it's waaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive, that's his problem.


exactly, i cracked up too when i saw that raise price to $50 thing, but if he wants to do it, who cares?

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Raising the price to $50 would be a SERIOUSLY bad idea. Something tells me that if Deepsea cost that much, there would be even more people warezing it than there are already.

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esayeek said:

exactly, i cracked up too when i saw that raise price to $50 thing, but if he wants to do it, who cares?

LOL - you guys crack me up. You pick on the HIGH number and totally ignore the LOW $15 number.

The $15 version would still have MORE features than WA. Anybody that says $15 is too expensive needs a new hobbie - besides making ridiculous statements.

And you are right, I don't care about "free" popularity. The true measure of a program is if someone is willing to pay. All the other shareware pgms died because of lack of interest in paying users.

And why should you when they made it so easy to either cheat or just ignore that it's shareware. The number of times I read open statements on how to "steal" WA is amazing. Total lack of moral standards or ethics - it's stealing guys no matter how you want to justify it.

What was even more amazing is that John W was oblivious to the problem, till I pointed it out to him on these forums and shortly thereafter he got a taste of same.

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Hey i paid $50 for an editor a many years ago, and i would do so again if i truely thought the program is worth the investment. I'd have to say, the i got every cent worth when i paid fifty bucks years ago for the old bitch i still using today.

btw, deep, what do you know about DoomED? i always thought it was a great editor....and yes its the one that ran me fifty dollars. Again i was 'promised' upgrades but never saw a single one.

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deep said:

LOL - you guys crack me up. You pick on the HIGH number and totally ignore the LOW $15 number.

deep said:

The stripped will NOT be modified for anything new, I don't care if it has bugs and will have all the tools ripped out. Sort of like some other editors:)


you said it yourself - one can get shitty editors for free, so why pay $15 for one?

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The reason why I think having the source code available would be good is that I could fix bugs/remove things I don't need /change things to my taste very easily, myself.

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It's a nasty pricetag to attach to an editor for a game - especially when other editors are free.

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esayeek said:

you said it yourself - one can get shitty editors for free, so why pay $15 for one?

That's exactly right. You can get shitty editors for free:))

HOW exactly does that pertain to what I said? The $15 DeePsea version would be EXACTLY like the current version - in just editing features - MINUS ALL the tools. Geared towards just level making. I may update it once a year or I may not.

I suppose if you want to claim that the current DeePsea is a "shitty editor", go right ahead - but that's just plain ole trolling for trouble.

It could be that not being a DeePsea user, some of you may not understand that the extra tools dropped are a replacement for Wintex, NWT, Inkworks and some other utilities. Level editing itself would be as current and up-to-date for all the current ports as it is now - with the variable size texture browser, toolbar buttons (toolbar in the GUI aspect) and all that stuff.

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Fredrik said:

The reason why I think having the source code available would be good is that I could fix bugs/remove things I don't need /change things to my taste very easily, myself.

LOL - I don't think you'd want to tackle over 8MB of source code Fredrik. If you think you can actually "fix bugs" in a reasonable amount of time (within a month - and I mean 28 full-time 8 hr days), you need to quit smoking that Swedish pot:))

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Spike said:

It's a nasty pricetag to attach to an editor for a game - especially when other editors are free.

What other editors are free in the DOOM editing world? The ones most commonly used are NOT FREE.

In terms of percentage of usage, there are only 3: DeePsea, WA, and DCK. The rest make up about 10 percent (IIRC that's about what the various polls reflected over time - those that took some pain to make sure stuffing was prohibited). Those are ALL shareware. In the WINDOWS world, DeePsea and WA probably 90 percent. Again both are NOT FREE.

Thank you very much for clarifying that issue Spike:))

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