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Shaikoten

32in24-16: DOOT CTF

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MAP23: (marc_32in24-16_2oda.wad) (by marcaek)
I like the layout, quite promising. Seems like you can pick a ton of routes and perhaps go for some cool rocket jumps as well. I'd probably add a (regular slow) lift here, the upper part feels a bit campy and unconnected to me.

You should do something with the staircases on mid, they're atrocious to climb onto and I can see everyone snagging on the corners, falling off and cursing in your general direction in the heat of all the action on mid. The staircase should have a fanned out shape, imo, to limit the difference between getting on the stairs and bumping into their side and falling off. Also this wall,the one I'm aiming at, is a slight inconvenience when running fast through that corridor. It kinda attracts me bumping into it when trying to go really fast around the bend. Maybe the thing bridge can go all way to the pillar?

Btw, it's ballsy to have two BAs and so many medkits. It's going to be a pretty tough slugfest. I'd say kill the CG spawns. Like, one can be completely sacrificed and make the other one a SG spawn. I dunno, I just don't think CG spawns are... good for balance.

And a big compatability issue: Can't have the stripes for a flat like that. Also more importantly, the action 154 (tele, no stop) doesn't seem to be working at all in Zdaemon and Odamex.

MAP24: (marc_32in24-16_3oda.wad) (by marcaek)
The layout seems alright, although running in it... there's a slight feel of emptiness. I mean, have you thought about adding windows/grates to the U-shaped sections of the base? At least on the bigger "U", it could add a sense of interconnectivity via being able to see/shoot through. Also I'd probably make the side cannals less deep. It's like, why so deep? The "cliff" is almost jarring for a CTF map. Speaking of, maybe it cuts too deep into useful space? I found myself almost-falling when doing spins around the general area, so I can totally see that happening under heavy fire.

The defensive wall in front of the flag, cool. However it's a bit too high, you can see what's going to happen to people who'd try to lob rockets through it. Also my pet grievance with staircase shapes, heh. Maybe this would even look cooler?

Item-wise, get rid of the CG spawn behind the flag. It's a CG spawn (yuck) and it's in a silly place (too good for lucky defenders) AND you have a ton of them anyways. I'd probably park the GA inside of the base, it's in a silly spot that slows down pace for runners who might harvest it. Also I'd get rid of the CGs at the sides of the mid section. Why have them when there's plenty of them in the bases anyways? I'd move the central medkits there, those seem too good to have so near the BA.

That's all I have for now. Maybe the base buildings are just so tall that it seems like they're bigger and more hollow than they are? The flagroom in particular. Just speculating, heh. Maybe the feeling will go away when the maps get detailed.

MAP25: (marc_32in24-16_4oda.wad) (by marcaek)
Interesting map shape, heh. I don't have issues with the layout, because I'm not really sure how it's going to play out ingame, heh. Still, a few local-scope grievances here. Should be self-explanatory, the window would add interconnectivity and I thought that one hallway was needlessly narrow. Also I like harassing you about stair shapes.

Slight visual glitches, seems like some of the bridge things flew off? Oh and ffs, remove all that silly unnecessary ammo everywhere. If you spawn with a SSG, you don't need a shellbox or a backpack right next to you. You start with 40 shells, it's almost unheard of to run out, heh. Keep the ammo for restocking somewhere... neat and strategic.

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Dew would you be able to change the Things in my map how you described it will end up better and help me understand it.

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Pinchy said:

Dew would you be able to change the Things in my map how you described it will end up better and help me understand it.

Here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/1d81uw2cn32z56w/32in24-16_alpha3m20.7z

I only remade the red side so you have a reference. I shuffled the spawns around and gave them all SGs. There are two SSGs in easily accessible spots of "congregation", basically on the way out of the base for runners after spawning so they don't waste time hunting it down. SSG is the basic tool in CTF, not a power weapon. I like your RL pillars, so I kept them.

Some ammo and health is slightly reshuffled or removed, because I either didn't like it too much in that spot, or it was just unneeded (like the bullet box in front of the "secret" lift). There's a BA as a centerpiece now, so I killed the GA on the pillar close to it and put a shellbox there (the one that was behind the trees where the SSG is now). I killed all of the health in the upper GA area so that people can't camp there.

I also made a structural change up there (in the northern half). I hated how hard it was to run that little maze, it would've been awkward to have flag chases there, so I made it a little wider and straightforward. I also added corrosive floor to the soulsphere area, again, so no one can camp it. Get the sphere and get out, soldier. Speaking of - the red base is bugged, the switch is tagged to lower the central lift, not the lift right behid it/the sphere area.

Hopefully this makes sense to you.

Seele00TextOnly said:

dew you forgot Map 22 when it's the one that sucks the most! Come on give it some public shaming please.

essel's last update is so broken I can't even run it! Basically the map cannot use extended nodes, so I'm waiting on it for now.

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dew said:

essel's last update is so broken I can't even run it! Basically the map cannot use extended nodes, so I'm waiting on it for now.

The Green Herring said:

Alpha 3 includes all the updates, name changes and music changes posted in the thread since the release of alpha 2. It also rebuilds the nodes on MAP01 and MAP22 to fix nodes-related bugs (MAP01's bad GL nodes, MAP22's extended nodes which ZDaemon doesn't support).

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I got a newer version via irc, TGH. And that one was broken again. :) Anyway!

MAP26: 32spooky24me (by donut)
Agreed with Decay's points. The BFG needs to be on a slow-ass lift. The map's going to be gimmicky because of it, so let's abuse it all the way. Maybe something like a perpetually moving platform that goes both up and down, so the gate is open for 20 seconds, then closed for the next cycle... and the BFG is only available when the top of the gate passes the floor level. That could creatively screw with the flow of the map, heh. Downside: one could drop the flag down the hole, heh. I dunno how I feel about that trollmove, so I guess it depends on what you'd like to see there. But it simply should have a long cycle.

Also the back area should have a lift from the lower RLs to the upper RL, I don't care about the speed of it. That way there's only one dropoff (into the flagroom) and a potential rjumper doesn't need to perform TWO jumps. Also the SSGs should be moved inside of the base, then either the top RL or the bottom pair should be transformed into more SSGs, because that should attract traffic into the hallways AND it's silly to have those RLs stacked so close to each other.

The berserk is annoying and the lift it's on is also annoying. How about making it an unmoving platform and just making it smaller? The path doesn't need to be walk-speed friendly and there would be less lift insanity in the middle of combat. Also agreed about the spawns, they need to be spread around the base more... and the "corner" one should have the alcove slightly remodelled, that one sharp protruding corner is kind of pissing me off, haha.

Also btw it's possible to (r)jump between the three decorations above the flagstand. If you drop the flag there, it's a nice standoff, because you can't jump up there easily - either a rj or an awkward jump from the downward stairs, heh. Kind of cool.

MAP27: BAD MOON (by rott)
I mentioned on irc something in sync with Decay, the oversimplified mid with a straight line flag to flag run was wasting the side areas. I think this is better, the side areas might be worth visiting now. At least for a standoff, heh. At first I wanted to complain about the RL only being there for runners and not defenders, but given the flagroom's shape... yeah, good call. So yeah, we'll have to see how this plays under stress, but I like it. Maybe the mid is still kind of... empty? I'm afraid a soulsphere might be too much of a bonus, given shotgun spawns and a fast way out. On the other hand, the flagroom is a deathtrap, so maybe? At the very least something like two medkits for a runner with a ton of bad hombers on his tail?

MAP28: YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME (by Xaser)
I hope the BFG lifts are broken on purpose, because that would be some serious brit10-tier carnage, haha. Even with jsut the PG... get rid of extra cells, spam should be discouraged. Also hey, how come the zigzag room doesn't have corrosive fluids? Btw, it's possible to use those lamps to jump up to the translucent bloodfall. But hey, that doesn't even need to be fixed. On the other hand, the lamps in front of the flagroom are slightly protruding into the player path and one can get nastily stuck on them. They should be pressed into the walls a bit more.

Now, spawns need to be addressed. For example, have just one in the flagroom area, no need to mirror them. Also no pistol spawns. Everyone should get a SG at the least. I'd move the RL spawn off the RL and into a corner of that room (probably the "outer" corner that can see the RL), give the spawn a SG. RL spawns are a bit niche, basically it's a special tool, not a generic start weapon like the SSG - and whoever wants it will probably dislike when another player just spawns right into their face on it, heh. Oh yeah and get rid of the rocketbox, it's not really needed to give people that much RL ammo.

Move the "central" spawn (t.113) elsewhere (with its back against a wall, preferably) and put the flagroom SSG in its place. Then the SSG spawn nearby (t.115) can be relegated to a SG spawn. Alternatively, move the GA in the center position instead, keep the SSG spawn and hand the flagroom SSG directly to the one remaining defender there. Whatever you like more. The GA should be moved off the CG spawn anyway, because the player getting handed the CG+GA right on spawn would be a major pest, heh.

Should be fun... the flagrooms look a little grindy, but the mid seems surprisingly "standard" for a homage map!

MAP29: Castles of the Cyber-Creeps (by andrewj)
This is a pretty solid layout! But would it be possible to "squeeze" the side routes in the middle so that they are closer to the mid section and there's more potential crossfire between the routes? You know, the lake of lava doesn't have to be that big, heh. Also could you widen up the central entrance to the flagroom? I feel it should be a bit more spacious for some reason. Oh and delete the cells in the side corridor, extra cells encourage unwanted spam. Also can the lava lifts be switch operated, separate and fast (with very little delay)? As in, not merged and triggered by walkover of the armor, because that will inevitably lead to massive clusterfucks in that pool, heh.

Now, balancing spawns and weapons. This is a little tricky. I feel like the SSG isn't placed very fortunately. Everyone will rush for it all the time and it will lead into a lot of groupdiving in the lava. The spawn most definitely shouldn't be there at all, people would bump into the spawning guy randomly. A possible solution is do away with the PG (it's usually an inefficient denial-of-area spam tool at best in ctf) and put a second SSG in its place. It would be a choice of going hyper-aggressive on mid, or waste time by going to the defensive but safer pickup. Not saying that your teammates wouldn't bump you off into lava a couple of times, heh. I considered swapping the RL and the SSG, but that would do harm to the map's theoretical flow. Spawns are heavily stacked to one side of the base, so the "RL route" is possibly the safer one for a sneaky flagger. If the SSG was on the RL's stand, everyone would flock there and ruin that, heh.

The outside spawn should also have a SG, not a CG. As I said a hundred times by now, CG spawns are pretty annoying and you already have one on the pillar, so I'd sacrifice this one and move the CG somewhere inside of the base, possibly to the wider side entrance into the base. Scrap the inner SG and shells, put the little outside stimpaks in there instead - they're useless on mid and a potential resource for a defender inside. Kill the bulletboxes north and south, they're useless.

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hoping that this is lesser garbage than my first version of this map, fixed all the issues that decay and dew found:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/3z6p0vk0mlt9zof/32in24-badctf.wad

(it uses the texture pack now)

also i get rid of the lifts near the teleport pods, changed slightly the geometry, added a pg in the middle of the arena as dew suggestion, i've added RL, Soul spheres (at the corner mountain parts in the angle, not inside the bases) plus some stimpack scattered around the base...

Again, if i made some mistakes please tell me!

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MAP30: The Treefolk Assault Pumpkin Valley (by kassman)
Oh wow, honestly? Cut the entire middle part. Just slam the colored parts together and delete anything between them. The map is waaaay too massive at this point.

Don't block off the SSG island with the midtex fence, that's a route that should be there for interconnectivity. And it should probably be a soulsphere (in each base), just put SSGs on spawns. Also the lift in the exit area really should be just high enough so you can jump on it (and to the flag) from the high floor. It's pointless for the west lift (s. 64) to go so high, it should just go to roughly the same level as the adjacent sector. Generally, all lifts should move faster, heh. Alternatively, the pits could be less deep.

MAP31: (marc_fatsmile.jpg_oda.wad) (by caek)
I dunno about certain choices here. The perpetually moving crusher I just don't get, it seems so pointless and just generates a lot of noise. The plasma route to the flag seems completely neutered, the lift is ultraslow, the PG there is only good for a flagger in a standoff camping there, raining plasma down hallways and the defender can see the incoming dude through a nice peekhole. Even as a distraction the lift is kind of poor, because the d would hear you go through the tele. Faster lift? Move PG elsewhere?

The switch under the flag that lowers the nukage lift is questionable. Why go there other than for defensive purposes? As an escape route it's pretty much useless, because the tele brings you just a bit farther. On the other hand I do like being able to rjump to the flag or to the central tele.

I'd also like it better if the D could see the actual mid. The walls are kinda dull to stare at? I'm a bit stumped for ideas, to be honest. :/


As for maps 32 and 33, no comment.

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dew said:


[b]MAP13: The Devil Is Evil
(by joe)
This map might actually be pretty decent, given two conditions:
- SSG spawns. Just do it. It's too small and open for anything else and this might improve the balance for almost free. The layout is fairly decent to carry it.
- Get rid of the flag cage, it's thoroughly unnecessary and annoying.
- Fuck the light levels, I need to see what I'm doing. Dark CTF maps are not cool.
There, three conditions, as promised.

Would it be OK if I put candles to guide the players and put the flag on a lift that you could either lower or jump to it from above?

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https://www.dropbox.com/s/2uvfxd8wgzmil40/32in24-16_alpha4.zip?dl=1

Alpha 4 is here. All updates posted in this thread are in, as well as updates to Marcaek's maps and TMD's "32spooky24me" sent to me through IRC. dew's edit to "Grave Danger" is not included because it only modifies one side (to give Pinchy a reference). In addition, MAP14 ("Coloured War") has been moved to MAP33, because a level of this caliber should be saved for last. All levels past MAP14 were shifted back one slot, with the MAPINFO and the names of every music lump updated to match.

Other changes since I slotted in those updates include (mapnames for MAP14+ listed):
MAP01: Fixed the actual cause of the "bad GL segs" glitch, which was that I forgot to rename the "GL_MAP01" lump for andrewj's map. Oops!
MAP14 ("Ren & Stimpack"): Fixed the sky transfer not being applied to two sectors.
MAP22 (marc32in24-16-2oda.wad) and MAP23 (marc32in24-16-3oda.wad): Fixed "unknown texture" errors caused by the use of Skulltag textures, which are not allowed in 32in24-16.
MAP24 (marc32in24-16-4oda.wad): Removed a voodoo doll left in the map.

The new maplist:

MAP01: Bad Times at the Armory
       by AlexMax
MAP02: Flag Quest
       by GregLafitte
MAP03: Cthulhu Fhtagn (What a wonderful phrase)
       by TheMionicDonut
MAP04: Naval Skeletal Battle
       by Gothic
MAP05: Here's to the fire that raises the dead
       by Getsu Fune
MAP06: Stones 'n' Bones
       by Jimmy (edits by The Green Herring)
MAP07: Spooky Shit
       by Walter Confalonieri
MAP08: Tootsie Roll Showdown
       by Mechadon
MAP09: Counter Ghost Initiative
       by TheMionicDonut
MAP10: (40oz_32in24_01.wad)
       by 40oz 
MAP11: (40oz_32in24_02.wad)
       by 40oz
MAP12: Count Toothy's Super Canoe
       by Mechadon
MAP13: The Devil Is Evil
       by joe-ilya
MAP14: Ren & Stimpack
       by scotty
MAP15: Bonegar
       by Gothic
MAP16: Displeasure Island
       by ultradoom
MAP17: Voodoo Geometry
       by Breezeep
MAP18: Creepy Cube Conspiracy
       by Zakurum
MAP19: Grave Danger
       by Pinchy
MAP20: Come On Down to Spooky Town
       by Mechadon
MAP21: Get On The Floor, Everybody Walk The Bloodivore
       by esselfortium
MAP22: (marc_32in24-16_2oda.wad)
       by Marcaek 
MAP23: (marc_32in24-16_3oda.wad)
       by Marcaek 
MAP24: (marc_32in24-16_4oda.wad)
       by Marcaek 
MAP25: 32spooky24me
       by TheMionicDonut
MAP26: BAD MOON
       by RottKing
MAP27: YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME
       by Xaser
MAP28: Castles of the Cyber-Creeps
       by andrewj
MAP29: The Treefolk Assault Pumpkin Valley
       by lupinx-Kassman
MAP30: (marc_fatsmile.jpg_oda.wad)
       by Marcaek
MAP31: Gasterisk
       by Xaser
MAP32: The Wolfenshining
       by TheMionicDonut
MAP33: Coloured War
       by joe-ilya

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Dew, seems you reviewed my map (MAP29) using the old one in the alpha3 wad -- though I posted an updated one shortly after alpha3 was made (1 day and a half ago) with some fixes from Decay's feedback.

Hmmm, most of your comments still apply -- e.g. getting rid of the outdoor CG spawn, too much plasma ammo, the lifts near the blue armor pool (etc) -- but I'd appreciate it if you took another look (it should be in alpha4 now, on MAP28 it seems).

BTW, what is the timeline now? Will there be a play-testing session and some more feedback, or are we gonna start the detailing phase shortly?

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andrewj said:

Dew, seems you reviewed my map (MAP29) using the old one in the alpha3 wad -- though I posted an updated one shortly after alpha3 was made (1 day and a half ago) with some fixes from Decay's feedback.

Hmmm, most of your comments still apply -- e.g. getting rid of the outdoor CG spawn, too much plasma ammo, the lifts near the blue armor pool (etc) -- but I'd appreciate it if you took another look (it should be in alpha4 now, on MAP28 it seems).

Ah, you're right. And yeah, this elevates some of the issues I mentioned. The cells still need to go, I'd probably move the outside stimpaks in their place - and one of the flagroom stimpaks too, so the flag defender has only a very small well of health right under their butt and has to travel a little for more.

The "last" pillar spawn nearest to the base exit should be just a SG, two PGs are overkill I'd say. Plus PG is actually worthless if you respawn there as a defender and see a flagger in front of you making a run for the exit - the charges won't catch up with him, no matter how you spam, heh.

And I still dislike the idea of a CG spawn a bit, so how about moving the spawn itself where the bullet box is and turning the box into a SG? Then the CG is there as a pickup weapon, but not as a spawn weapon.

The fix for the central lava pool lifts still applies, but you probably don't need to reshape the map anymore, this seems fine.

andrewj said:

BTW, what is the timeline now? Will there be a play-testing session and some more feedback, or are we gonna start the detailing phase shortly?

I'd like to know as well, heh.

joe-ilya said:

Would it be OK if I put candles to guide the players and put the flag on a lift that you could either lower or jump to it from above?

The latter idea could work I guess. The former doesn't really elevate the issue of dark maps in PVP games. I mean you can keep the map dark, but it's a major turnoff when you don't properly see what you're shooting at.

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OK here's the edited map with fixes done.

I put in the flag positions on the platforms, these can be moved if needed.

It has 5 of each start position and I realised the middle wasn't mirrored exactly so I fixed that.

V0.98

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OK I have worked way too much on this today ! Thanks to dew and Decay for feedback. Made the mid bigger and detailed it up (see hanging 1-legged guy !). Swapped the BA for SS. Also made an alternate elbow at mid--- not sure if gonna keep this, well see how it plays.

Big shout out to whoever made the INCBRIK and INCDECO textures, they are slammin and I probably went overboard with them :D

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sx0x1skh94p2lvt/disislandbeta.wad?dl=0

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Thanks dew, I'll take those comments on-board, and I forgot the player can run faster than the plasma bolts :)

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I just wanna chime in with saying that I'm thrilled by all this activity. Keep the updates coming, folks! There's nothing worse for testers than ignored feedback, heh.

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Alright, here are my 3 maps with updates based on feedback. I also did some super quick and dumb detailing so they aren't too plain looking. Sorry if I skipped over any feedback, its super late and I've had a long day.

Tootsie Roll Showdown: http://mekworx.the-powerhouse.net/mekastuff/wads/32in24/32in24-16/meklay1-v2.wad
I'm pretty sure I implemented all of the feedback properly. The things in question right now are the lifts. I cut up the large lowering platform into 4 different sections - some stairs that build on the far end of the platform, a normal lift on the side, another lift on the opposite side which has a bit more going on, and then a lift on the flag. After I implemented that, I thought that it might be too easy to grab the flag and run in the opposite direction, so I put the flag on a lowered ledge. I think the lowering platform that the flag is on might need some adjustment though. Anyways, I'm looking for more feedback there is possible.

Count Toothy's Super Canoe: http://mekworx.the-powerhouse.net/mekastuff/wads/32in24/32in24-16/meklay2-v2.wad
Hopefully I got this one tweaked properly, because I was really happy to hear dew liked it! There was a ton of feedback I got on this one between dew and Decay, so I hope I updated it properly. I couldn't put a timer on the stairs building, so I tweaked it so that a blocking lift wall lowers and then raises on a timer. Some doors now also close as soon as the player crosses the gap (there are door close switches in the flag room as well; those can be removed if necessary). I also opened up some of the cramped hallways and tweaked the layout a bit in places. Please let me know if I missed anything or if someone else needs adjusting.

Come On Down to Spooky Town: http://mekworx.the-powerhouse.net/mekastuff/wads/32in24/32in24-16/meklay3-v2.wad
I changed this one up the most from the original. I lowered the flag area down 128px to cut out the stairs, which also widened up the areas around it. I removed some of the structures in the mid area and pulled both bases a bit closer together. I was unhappy with the original's mid area and the lift mechanic after the fact, so I changed that up. The bridge in the mid area are now just normal lifts, and there's an open area in the center between both lifts/bridges that allows access to both sides of the mid area (along with a Soulsphere I tossed in...I can remove that if necessary). There are also switches near each base which lowers the lifts, with the idea being that you can slow down an enemy flag carrier; I dunno if that's a viable tactic or not, and it would be easy to remove is not. Some weapons and other things were shuffled around, I added more color cues in the bases so you can tell where you are, and I implemented Decay's feedback as well.

Lemme know if there are any problems :)

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Just let me know in PM or IRC when the next beta is ready, I'll put up some Oda, ZD and Zan servers!

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