Fidel Castro dead at 90

[Wereknight]

Wild Dog said:

By the way, yes some people here are "Praising an Autocrat", saying thing like
"Such epic person, he loved his motherland by all his soul. Damn, it's truly a great loss to Cuba and our world at this moment."

You have some problems with people that not share your point, don't ya.

I don't respect Fidel much, but he did enough to be legendary person, in good way. If you disagree - well, that's your point but don't be stupid by trying to think your point of view at Fidel is right.

[Guest]

Well, this thread escalated quickly.

[Phml]

This was happening as late as 2014 when BNP Paribas was curbstomped with an outrageous fine and probation in what was obviously a warning to all foreign banks to stay the hell out of Cuba and Iran.

Poor Cuban drug dealers. No sweat for BNP Paribas, there's still the rest of South America to launder cartel money for.

[Trycon]

(No personal politics, please. I want to respect the moratorium on political threads but felt like this was big enough that it bore mentioning.)

Well that didn't work....

[DeathevokatioN]

"Mike Pence is scary because he hates gays!"

"Fidel Castro (who literally imprisoned gays, working many to death in concentration camps and put others under surveillance) is a hero!"

Pick one.

[Wild Dog]

FTM said:

you don't understand, as long as you say "fuck you" to the US you're allowed to be the biggest piece of shit in the world.

In all seriousness most of the people who praise, or defend him, have never experienced a loss of freedom, they've never been told, you can't buy two liters of milk, or just one piece of soap, or have never heard: "you cant buy that because your ID card terminal can't buy today" while a bunch of soldiers are taking everything they want, and you had to wait in line for two hours.

So, yeah, dont tell me that i dont know anything about his regime, because they brought that shit to my country and turned it into a shithole.

Edit: and by the way, did you know all the members of the cuban goverment have a diferent currency?, theirs is 1:1 to dollar, while the rest of the cubans have a devaluated version.

Well now they are going to say you must be working for the CIA jajajajaja

CWolf said:

You have some problems with people that not share your point, don't ya.

I don't respect Fidel much, but he did enough to be legendary person, in good way. If you disagree - well, that's your point but don't be stupid by trying to think your point of view at Fidel is right.

I do have a problem when someone defends a dictator. Because that is what he was.
More so when those defending him are people from Rich Country that say "Well they are Happy being told they can only eat one piece of bread per week" or "Those cubans that are happy for Fidel Death are druglords".

Those praising Fidel go and try to live like a Cuban in Cuba, So say GOOD BYE to your Iphone, Good Bye to being able express your POV, Good Bye to eating the way you want.

Dynamo said:

Thanks for missing the point entirely. I never attacked him for his nationality, I merely pointed out that during the same period, the argentine government was doing way, way, WAY worse things than the cuban government could ever hope to come close to do. What the hell do the germans have to do with this? An Argentinian saying "capitalism is not perfect but" "the US is not perfect but" whereas his government has been responsible for some of the worst atrocities imaginable (atrocities that are not nearly as frequently mentioned as the cuban ones, despite being even more severe) just shows the irony of the propaganda. Especially in his case where he is asking left and right where people are from. I'm not even a Castro supporter but look at the mirror before you criticize other countries.

Yes Argentina was doing quite worst in that time, even most of the south was like that. And guess what?? They were POS like fidel. So? Did i say i support them?

You know what happen to those people you cited? They were put on trial and found guilty on every single shit they did. They didn't perpetuate on Power...

Is not about criticize another country, but if you did not suffer a dictator, then you can´t understand what is like. So some people support castro because they think he is "ANIT-HEROE, that was fighting the US". No he was a POS, that killed people and the took the power and never let anyone touch it again and if you didn´t like that you were death.
So we Snobish Cosplayer, saying that he was saw some cubans in the Cuba and that his friend say they are happy people so that means Castro was not that bad....

[Quasar]

What gets me is the hypocritical attitude of most Cubans toward illegal immigrants. Just because they got here on political asylum somehow gives them the moral right to look down on other people searching for a better life regardless of personal risk? That's some hot bullshit. And they thought this enough to go vote in droves for an orangutan who probably wants to deport them all.

[Gez]

Castro was bad, but remember what the alternative was back then: this cheery guy

Back in power, Batista suspended the 1940 Constitution and revoked most political liberties, including the right to strike. He then aligned with the wealthiest landowners who owned the largest sugar plantations, and presided over a stagnating economy that widened the gap between rich and poor Cubans.[4] Batista's increasingly corrupt and repressive government then began to systematically profit from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, by negotiating lucrative relationships with the American Mafia, who controlled the drug, gambling, and prostitution businesses in Havana, and with large U.S.-based multinational companies which were awarded lucrative contracts.[4][5] To quell the growing discontent amongst the populace—which was subsequently displayed through frequent student riots and demonstrations—Batista established tighter censorship of the media, while also utilizing his Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities to carry out wide-scale violence, torture and public executions; ultimately killing anywhere from hundreds to 20,000 people.[6][7][8] For several years until 1959, the Batista government received financial, military, and logistical support from the United States government.[9]

The Cubans didn't have the choice of a non-dictatorial alternative.

[Wild Dog]

That wsa 57 years ago, back then maybe that was "OK" but in 57 years not even a single CUBA was capable of being in charge of the Country?
Unlike what "Snobish Cosplayer" said a few post ago "elections doesn't equate to freedom anyway" When you cast a vote, you are expressing yourself and that´s part of Freedom.

A Dictator is not an "Anti Heroe" is just a Slaver that owns a whole country. It doesn´t matter if he killed more or less people than other Dictator. All of them are POS.

[Wereknight]

Wild Dog said:

I do have a problem when someone defends a dictator. Because that is what he was.
More so when those defending him are people from Rich Country that say "Well they are Happy being told they can only eat one piece of bread per week" or "Those cubans that are happy for Fidel Death are druglords".

Those praising Fidel go and try to live like a Cuban in Cuba, So say GOOD BYE to your Iphone, Good Bye to being able express your POV, Good Bye to eating the way you want.

He was a dictator, yes. But was he that bad to people? Turn off your BBC&CNN shit, it doesn't work in right way anyway.

Gez mentioned Batista already so I don't need to say it. There were people much worse than Fidel, worse than Hitler in his best moments even.

btw iphone is overrated piece of shit.
Speaking of "try to live like", would you like to live ukrainians in present days, post-Yanokovich period, mmm? Just sayin'.

Wild Dog said:

That wsa 57 years ago, back then maybe that was "OK" but in 57 years not even a single CUBA was capable of being in charge of the Country?
Unlike what "Snobish Cosplayer" said a few post ago "elections doesn't equate to freedom anyway" When you cast a vote, you are expressing yourself and that´s part of Freedom.

Will you believe or not, USA have a dictatorship as main political regime for ummm... 70 years now, yes? Election don't mean "freedom", it's just another kind of theatre for majority.

When you cast a vote - it doesn't equal to expressing yourself in way of freedom. You just become a person involved into theatre scenario.

[Decay]

I lost track of any point wild crazy puppy dog was trying to make, other than castro was bad and anyone who disagrees is an ignoramus. Which really could've just been 1 post instead of crying and slapping the keyboard whenever someone had a lightly different viewpoint. Hey that's like trying to censor other people's view, what an autocratic move! I guess wild dog is a supporter of tyranny after all, how very argentinian of you :O)

[pablogener]

Dynamo said:

No offense but the Argentinians have been responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity ever committed in the modern world. Very amusing how you seem to criticize cuba and castro so much: did you forget when your government sanctioned ripping people apart with chainsaws and dropping them off from moving airplanes (including people known personally by pope francis, by the way)? Did you forget Rodolfo Walsh? You really should take your bullshit propaganda elsewhere.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/walshopenletterargjunta.html there you go, allow me to remind you. And that's just Argentina by the way. If we look at nations much closer to cuba in those periods, if we look at Rafael Trujillo, Jose Napoleon Duarte or the genocide in guatemala, we probably couldn't help but wonder how it is that cuba has been demonized yet for the most part none of those governments have been.

I haven't read the thread through yet but can't help myself and I'll answer-quote you.
Did you know all those atrocities were commited only by "some" argentines and not *all* of them????? those argentines who did that, did so sponsored by the mother-fucking-US-of-fuckin-A!!
The CIA and the military dictatorships in southamerica by those years signed agreements named "Operacion Condor". What is it that you know about us that we don't??

[YukiHerz]

You should've kept reading the thread more carefully to understand why the post was made in the first place.

[Wild Dog]

CWolf said:

He was a dictator, yes. But was he that bad to people? Turn off your BBC&CNN shit, it doesn't work in right way anyway.

Gez mentioned Batista already so I don't need to say it. There were people much worse than Fidel, worse than Hitler in his best moments even.

btw iphone is overrated piece of shit.
Speaking of "try to live like", would you like to live ukrainians in present days, post-Yanokovich period, mmm? Just sayin'.

Will you believe or not, USA have a dictatorship as main political regime for ummm... 70 years now, yes? Election don't mean "freedom", it's just another kind of theatre for majority.

When you cast a vote - it doesn't equal to expressing yourself in way of freedom. You just become a person involved into theatre scenario.

About Fidel being good with their people, Why you think people escape from Cuba?

About Ucranian, we have about 400.000 registered Ucranians in Argentina. I think we have one of the largest Ucranian communities in the American Continent
Some of my Friends are from there. It´s a WHOLE different issue than the one from CUBA, not even close.

Main Political Regimen? I'm looking at their Presidents and they had lots of Republicans and lots of Democrats. Which had different way to do things. Those President were put there by their own People and not because some armed thugs said so.

[pablogener]

Wild Dog said:

About Fidel being good with their people, Why you think people escape from Cuba?

About Ucranian, we have about 400.000 registered Ucranians in Argentina. I think we have one of the largest Ucranian communities in the American Continent
Some of my Friends are from there. It´s a WHOLE different issue than the one from CUBA, not even close.

Main Political Regimen? I'm looking at their Presidents and they had lots of Republicans and lots of Democrats. Which had different way to do things. Those President were put there by their own People and not because some armed thugs said so.

It's a communist regime. The people chose it to be so. There was a revolution and a political group seized power. What did they do? they declared a constituent period where the people itself would impose which political system would become official from then on.

Under a communist regime, the government destines for you (at birth) all the money you'll need for the rest of your life. You have everything covered by your government. Your clothes, your food, your study expenses, everything is taken care of. If you want to leave, you can, BUT first you have to give back to the government all you owe them. If you can manage to sum up such a big pile of dollars, you can leave. Figure how to do that in Cuba, or China, or so...

In Cuba there are elections. They just don't play the fool's game elections are in western modern 'de-mock-racies'.
A town or a ville chooses a few apt neighbours to go into government, by acclaiming or applaud-o-meter. The party's division for that town or ville considers the apptitude of those appointed and tries to find them something to do in government. As you see, anyone could go into government without allowing liberal-bias-able parties that could easily get influenced by "US-interests" to win elections. They just can't allow that.
In Argentina (where I'm from, too), we had alternativly in the most recent years, governments formed by parties absolutely in dispute with the US one turn, and have now one that is absolutely the opposite much happy to lick american dick. Cubans just wouldn't allow that.

[Mauzki]

Feirup said:

Well, this thread escalated quickly.

Cuban missile crisis.

[Wild Dog]

Pablo i know it`s a communist regime and that`s the whole problem. Can you see what you posted? You think that is right for the Gov to tell you what you can do, think or eat?

Those 'de-mock-racies' as you call them are far far better. For what i can see you don't like our current President and that`s fine and thanks to our 'de-mock-racies' You can take him out in the next elections. Something Cubans can`t do, well in theory they will able to do that in 2018... We shall see.

[pablogener]

Wild Dog said:

Pablo i know it`s a communist regime and that`s the whole problem. Can you see what you posted? You think that is right for the Gov to tell you what you can do, think or eat?

Those 'de-mock-racies' as you call them are far far better. For what i can see you don't like our current President and that`s fine and thanks to our 'de-mock-racies' You can take him out in the next elections. Something Cubans can`t do, well in theory they will able to do that in 2018... We shall see.

Cubans CAN change their president, they just did a few years ago. What they can't do is CHANGE THE REGIME. Something you can't either do in the US, and barely at all anywhere else.

[Wild Dog]

What??? They did not elect Raul Castro, he was appointed by Fidel even it was announced in the News. That Due health issue of Fidel, Raul was going to be in Charge...
Their Asamblea is a true Farce, no opposition at all, they all belong to the same Party and if you don`t belong to the party then you can be in the asamblea.
Now if you think the US or most of the Country in the American continent are the same...

[pablogener]

Wild Dog said:

(...)even it was announced in the News.

good night.

[Wild Dog]

pablogener said:

good night.

It was announced, Not by CNN,but their own people.... So we shouldn`t belive in them. Same thing when Chavez said in the radio that CIA gave him Cancer... They said it...
But if you are not going to belive their own people.

[pablogener]

Wild Dog said:

It was announced, Not by CNN,but their own people.... So we shouldn`t belive in them. Same thing when Chavez said in the radio that CIA gave him Cancer... They said it...
But if you are not going to belive their own people.

Im not gonna believe the media. If you want to know *anything* about the government and how to get involved in it, in Cuba, go to the source, not the media.
You can't change the regime in the US, you can't chagne the regime in Cuba. What's so *bad* about that??
Governmetn telling you what to do, just like anywhere else in the "free" world where trends and brands tell you what to do, what to think about, what to read, what to listen to, what to eat, what to study, etc.
In the US you're not free to choose a different political system, not so different from Cuba. All that pisses off those who claim Fidel to be a dictator, is that he never kneeled in front of Washington.
Nothing anyone said yet has proved that wrong.

@Wild Dog
I learned about this from a History teacher from Cuba. I'll link you to wikipedia in the lack of a better resource:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_War_of_Independence
"(...)The Maine incident
Main article: USS Maine (ACR-1)
Wreckage of the Maine, 1898

The Cuban struggle for independence had captured the American imagination for years. Some newspapers had agitated for US intervention, especially because of its large financial investment, and featured sensational stories of Spanish atrocities against the native Cuban population, which were exaggerated for propaganda.

Such coverage continued after Spain had replaced Weyler and changed its policies. American public opinion was very much in favor of intervening on behalf of the Cubans.[13]

In January 1898, a riot by Cuban Spanish loyalists against the new autonomous government broke out in Havana. They destroyed the printing presses of four local newspapers that had published articles critical of Spanish Army atrocities. The U.S. Consul-General cabled Washington with fears for the lives of Americans living in Havana. In response, the battleship USS Maine was sent to Havana in the last week of January. On February 15, 1898, the Maine was rocked by an explosion, killing 258 of the crew and sinking the ship in the harbor. At the time, a military Board of Investigations decided that the Maine had exploded due to the detonation of a mine underneath the hull. However, later investigations decided that it was likely something inside the ship, though the cause of the explosion has not been clearly established to this day.[14]

In an attempt to appease the United States, the colonial government took two steps that had been demanded by President William McKinley: it ended forced relocation of residents from their homes and offered negotiations with the independence fighters. But the truce was rejected by the rebels.(...)"

Does this ring any "WMDs in Iraq" bells, anyone??

[Quasar]

US ships do have a convenient way of blowing up or sinking anywhere we need to "intervene." Some examples include Vietnam and Yemen.

[Wild Dog]

pablogener said:

Im not gonna believe the media.

Governmetn telling you what to do, just like anywhere else in the "free" world where trends and brands tell you what to do, what to think about, what to read, what to listen to, what to eat, what to study, etc.

It was Fidel Secretary who said it. If you are not going to belive Fidel Secretary...

In the "Free" World, you are actually free and you know what? I have proof of that. You are the proof and all the people that like Fidel. You are free to think and say whatever you want. EVEN if that goest against the Gov. I don't see someone trying to stop you or cutting your Internet Conection. From the safety of your house, you can say and do as you want, while cubans if want to speak against Castro must flee their own country.
You can choose what to do. You can fall for the "media" and eat, dress like they want you to do, or you can do things your own way. Is up to you.

Quasar said:

US ships do have a convenient way of blowing up or sinking anywhere we need to "intervene." Some examples include Vietnam and Yemen.

Yes, False Flag attacks were(are?) common back then.

[Voros]

I'm not sure who this guy is/was, but judging from the thousands of Cubans shown on CNN saying Viva Fidel (IIRC), crowded in one place too, I'm guessing the guy was awesome.

May he rest in peace.

[Wild Dog]

Voros said:

I'm not sure who this guy is/was, but judging from the thousands of Cubans shown on CNN saying Viva Fidel (IIRC), crowded in one place too, I'm guessing the guy was awesome.

May he rest in peace.

Did you saw all the others celebrating his death?

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2016/nov/26/cuban-americans-celebrate-in-miami-following-death-of-fidel-castro-video

[pablogener]

Wild Dog said:

(...)
In the "Free" World, you are actually free and you know what? I have proof of that. You are the proof and all the people that like Fidel. You are free to think and say whatever you want. EVEN if that goest against the Gov. I don't see someone trying to stop you or cutting your Internet Conection. From the safety of your house, you can say and do as you want, while cubans if want to speak against Castro must flee their own country.
You can choose what to do. You can fall for the "media" and eat, dress like they want you to do, or you can do things your own way. Is up to you.

You're not free, not to think what you want and express it, not to orgnize against the system. With the prysm system online, you're not. Did you know of what E. Snowden spoke? Did you know that MIcrosoft, verizon, Google and Cisco, sponsored by the Pentagon and the NSA, ordered by Obama, created a software to follow anyone and know of their whereabouts at all times?
They don't use that system to keep track of you or me, becasue we're insignificant and microscopic to them, but they did use it to follow presidents of european governments. What kind of sovereign leader can you be when another president from another country, who thinks it's the sheriff of the world, and has the 'manifest right' to police everyone else, is following you around, keeping track of what meetings you attend, how much time you stayed there and who else was on that meeting? What kind of business is that? Are you really FREE in the "free" world??

[myk]

RIP Fidel!

My thanks to all who have posted respectfully.

Wild Dog said:

Most of them come from Cuba with a license to study that is one of the few ways to fly away from Cuba. After their license expire they stay in the Country refusing to go back to Cuba.

Have you done an inclusive survey on this, or do you simply have some right-wing Cuban friends you trust a lot? Lots of Latin Americans come to Argentina to study at universities because they are relatively good and accessible (either free and public or relatively accessible for private ones), and some stay here too... are they all fleeing their dictatorships? If anything, what you're assuming just insults our educational system, which, with all its faults, is also an attraction and an opportunity in itself to many in the region.

doom_is_great said:

The US embargo is not a sufficient explanation for Cuba's poverty.

True, you must add it had to survive for decades in a region where most countries were hit by a net of anti-popular dictatorships that ground down their industrial potential and then left them depressed by debt and income inequality. We never had a real cold war in Latin America. The conflict was really about whether we'd develop our own industries and general living standards or stick to a commodities-exporting model (or banana republics, more or less).

Gez said:

People like Castro not for what he did to his country, but because of how much he pissed off the Americans.

Well, it depends. If you look at the Wikipedia articles on Cuba, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay you'll see Cuba has the best Gini coefficient of the four. To all of us, used to capitalist fancies and perks, Cuba might seem boring, lacking or bad, but it gives several essential social guarantees or rights that are only less accessible in many other countries.

Zed said:

Keep in mind that La Jornada is a newspaper known here in Mexico for being, basically, pro-Castro, anti-USA. They would never dare putting Castro in a bad light. I'd take that with a grain of salt.

That he has stated regret and that those aren't State practices anymore are both facts. Here's Castro telling the Spanish journalist Ignacio Ramonet about it:

Pity I couldn't find this interview with English subs. That's one of the scary things about info on Latin America in English. Tons of it is not translated, and most of what is available on a daily basis comes from corporate media, so even left-wing (or labor/liberal) media only have access to mostly filtered and selective info. Compare some articles in the English Wikipedia with some the their equivalents in Spanish and you'll see some of the effects.

doom_is_great said:

"A study by the State Department’s Hugo Llorens and Kirby Smith

And this is used as the source in the Wikipedia article, too. See what I mean?

Dynamo said:

No offense but the Argentinians have been responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity ever committed in the modern world.

Even now, the UN is telling us to release a political prisoner but the government isn't complying.

[pablogener]

myk said:

Even now, the UN is telling us to release a political prisoner but the government isn't complying.

A government chosen by the majority of the vote, that campaigned with a message of "union of argentinos" and respecting individual rights and not abusing of power, but that clearly had a whole different agenda. Argentine president won't attend Fidel's mourn, he's clearly aligned with "US interests", he payed hedge funds whatever we owed them the first minute he sat at office, and has already in-debted us with an all-time record-breaking loan. He's constantly, painstakingly destroying local jobs, he allowed overcharging house services 400%+, opnened imports of anything that could be produced domesticaly... the neoliberal handbook list goes on an on....!! Oh, did I forget? he has an indigenous brown woman, leader of a mighty and superorganized social movement, who is a fierce and most strong opposer to him, locked up in jail for no reason, with the UN clutching at our asses to haver her released.

A white, perfect, blue-eyed, super-rich empresario, a golden boy of the oligarchy, they groomed him to be there, he's dooing everything Fidel-haters hate about Fidel.

[RonLivingston]

R.I.P Fidel castro (1926-2016)