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The_SloVinator

Is looking for secrets via map cheating?

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Soldier993 said:

What are your thoughts on this?

I do feel kinda 'ugh' when I accidentally stumble across a secret while viewing a map.


Nope, that's why the marine has an automatic mapping utility. Though I know some people find that using the auto map ruins their immersion

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Dunno what to call it but I don't like it. Especially when the mapper doesn't know about the "secret" flag and so all secret doors are immediately noticeable on the automap. I can't feel good about finding a secret that way. This is one of the reasons why I very rarely look at the automap.

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It's not cheating if you don't use cheats or external stuff such a wiki or editors. Imho, automap is a perfectly legitimate tool given to us by the devs.

P.S.: this should be a poll.

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How is "Is using an intended gameplay function cheating" a question that needs to be asked? You are given the automap and absolute free use of it from the get go as a means of having an overview of the map layout for navigation and exploration. Looking for secrets in a map layout is pretty much par of the course.

What next? "Is pressing shift to move faster cheating?"

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The automap is a tool freely available to players, with added capabilities for each more advanced port. It is not for the player to limit their own tools, it is for the mapper to limit them as he designs his map. Don't want that secret to be visible on the map? Don't flag a sector in plain sight. Don't want the map's use to give away the secret's entrance? Put the switch elsewhere. I've played enough maps with tough, well-thought-out secrets to say that the automap doesn't break a good secret.

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If it was programed that way, and it isn't a glitch, than it isn't cheating.

HavoX said:

the map in ECWolf, on the other hand... :P

That's one cheat I'm willing to abuse. I absolutely love Wolf 3D, but I'll be damned if I have to wander it's maze-like levels for more than 20 minutes looking for the exit.

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Sometimes the automap is used by a skilled mapper to deliberately flag to a player that an area of the map is yet to be fully explored. Especially when the secret is otherwise very well concealed. If you can find the exit but still only have a handful of linedefs showing in that particular section, chances are you're missing a secret.

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I personally don't like bumbling around a map for 30 minutes just to find a small closet with a invisibility sphere inside.

If the game gives me the option to view the map, you bet your ass i'm going to use it.

Heck, i'll iddt the shit out of it if i have to.

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The automap doesn't spoil secrets unless IDDT is used. If one can easily spot a secret from the automap, it's either intended by the designer or a mapping error/oversight. These are facts.

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No because I can make secrets where using the automaps makes them harder to find.

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No, using an in-game feature is not cheating. Neither is saving or playing continuously. Pistol starting by warping to a map is a dirty cheat though and you should feel bad about it.

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Secrets?
Man, you know a map is bad when you have to open Doom Builder or youtube just to find out how to get through the required segments.

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If the engine lets you see secrets specifically, you could say it's a cheat against what the author of the map probably intended. Cheating only really matters in a more competitive or interactive environment, like online or while speedrunning, depending on server settings or accepted rules. If you're just playing solo, you make the rules. If you're using an engine that shows secrets automatically and that bothers you, disable that setting.

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Edward850 said:

What next? "Is pressing shift to move faster cheating?"

Only if the -turbo parameter is used, heheheh. ;)

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I'm surprised this thread is so one-sided. Imo it feels bad and unsatisfying to capitalize on mistakes of others. If I notice that the author doesn't know how to hide secrets on the automap, I'll pretend I didn't see anything and won't look at it again. I prefer working hard for a reward, not abusing others' obliviousness and getting free stuff for no effort. Like in a chess game if someone makes a blunder, I will tell them and let them choose a better move. Guess I'm strange.

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I don't think it's cheating, but I prefer not to use the map to find secrets, in fact I barely use the map at all. I think it's more interesting to do things without the map, and that applies to secrets and general navigation, even though I usually don't like getting lost. It makes you think a bit harder.

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Nope. That's why the "secret" property for linedefs exists, to avoid giving away the secret on the automap

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Memfis said:

I'm surprised this thread is so one-sided. Imo it feels bad and unsatisfying to capitalize on mistakes of others. If I notice that the author doesn't know how to hide secrets on the automap, I'll pretend I didn't see anything and won't look at it again. I prefer working hard for a reward, not abusing others' obliviousness and getting free stuff for no effort. Like in a chess game if someone makes a blunder, I will tell them and let them choose a better move. Guess I'm strange.


i have seen maps, though i cant recall them to mind right now, where all of the marked secrets (the ones with tells) didn't show up on the automap but the few that were completely unmarked (no obvious tells i could see) showed up. i guess these folks are deliberately calling your bluff? or is it your assumption that no KNOWLEDGEABLE doom author would ever leave a secret in such a state that it could be discerened from looking at the automap? i find it odd that this is being likened to unsportsmanlike conduct.

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I use the map a ton in normal gameplay, meaning I'm liable spot a misflagged linedef by accident. There's no exploitatious intent here.

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HavoX said:

Using the map in ECWolf, on the other hand... :P


Funnily enough I never miss the need for an automap playing in DOS or SDL but when playing ECWolf the presence of a readily available automap spoils me, if at least making backtracking easier. But then I won't memorize landmarks this way.

Actual mazes that serve no purpose other than to confuse and disorient you over and over though? Fuck those, the automap saves me there.

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Memfis said:

I'm surprised this thread is so one-sided. Imo it feels bad and unsatisfying to capitalize on mistakes of others. If I notice that the author doesn't know how to hide secrets on the automap, I'll pretend I didn't see anything and won't look at it again. I prefer working hard for a reward, not abusing others' obliviousness and getting free stuff for no effort. Like in a chess game if someone makes a blunder, I will tell them and let them choose a better move. Guess I'm strange.

Question: if you're finding a map to be too easy, will you purposely avoid health pick-ups, armor, ammo, and/or weapons?

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Definitely not, unless you IDDT.
The mapper has the option to hide them if he wants and when he doesn't, it's intended for all I care.

Also, it feels actually satisfying to find hidden (as in not a huge yellow line into nothingness) secrets using the map. It makes so much sense when you undestand its workings and quirks fully and can from experience tell:
'Yup, so a secret might be here and here and oh, there is a suspicious emptiness here, better check that.'

Finding all remaining secrets even after the map is fully cleared is an integral part of my playing and the map is an indispensable help. It also is a built in function of the game. How can someone think it's a cheat?

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dobu gabu maru said:

Question: if you're finding a map to be too easy, will you purposely avoid health pick-ups, armor, ammo, and/or weapons?

In gryyd I don't take the megasphere, yes.

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Then again there are secrets that are hidden in plain view (in an automap sense) but you won't be able to activate or even realize they are there unless you know exactly what to do (Doom 64 was full of such secrets).

And other times you can literally SEE the teasing secret area during normal play, even walk around it, but you be damned if you are given the slightest hint on how to access it.

In such cases, unless are willing to try humping every possible wall or turn down the music, kill all monsters and listen for the subtlest of cues (some remote lift activating, some hatch opening for 3-seconds revealing a shootable switch etc.) you pretty much need to use a map editor, not just the automap. And yeah, that's cheating.

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HavoX said:

Is it cheating? Absolutely not.

Using the map in ECWolf, on the other hand... :P

The console versions of Wolf3D had an automap.

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