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savagegrant

If you were to remove a Doom II enemy...

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I'd remove the Mancubus, and every instance of the Archvile being used incorrectly and/or being used without cover in every WAD ever. He's supposed to be used as a medic that you have to find cover from, not some single enemy in the exit room or without any other monsters around him.

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Chaingunner - they are just knobs, really. I feel like they should have the same strength as their shotgunbros.

Arachnotron - if one did have to be removed and not a chaingunner - because this one's not Hell-ish enough for me. Too odd and mechanical, pain in the ass wide hit-box as well. I kind of do like them but I'd rather see a more fitting replacement. Plenty to pick from nowadays (think beastiary/TNS) that would suit the hell atmosphere more.

Lost Soul - Too tough, these. The old doom engine prohibits their movement too often which is a shame. They should be fast, harsh, but easy to pick off. They're too strong imo.

Regarding Wolf SS soldiers: I'd rather see 2 more doom maps than 31/32. They're wasted space to me, having never played the old wolfen games especially.

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Man, the female chaingunner looks very tough with all that sturdy armor on. Covers all the most vulnerable spots like the whole torso and thighs. :-/

Seriously though, we're talking soldiers and actual military here, not a bikini contest. Armor her up a bit and it'd be fine.

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This doesn't really answer the original question, but I'd say all of the enemies exclusive to Doom 2 serve a well thought-out purpose and are integral to certain encounters, so I wouldn't want to see any of them go.

As far as all of the enemies go, the Baron of Hell would probably be the best candidate for the chopping block. He was designed as the boss of E1M8 first and a normal enemy second, and it really shows when used outside of that context since he's more or less a door with health. I suppose that's a problem to be blamed on bad mappers instead of on id, though.

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I could do away with the Pain Elemental. This enemy is so annoying that he will create a dozen Lost Souls if you walk away from it for just a minute.

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The Baron is a bullet sponge. They are sometimes fun in close quarters but a duo of HKs is more challenging and lasts less, so more fun than the Baron.

It is more fun to avoid getting cornered by two HKs and trying to focus on one of them, while avoiding more projectiles. With one Baron things are too simple and two Barons are an epic chore.

Chezza said:

Definitely Specter. Its mechanics heavily rely on the traditional control scheme, or so it seems with Doom 2 maps. Often they are running around underneath you in acid or lava pits. With modern source ports You can simply look down and shoot them. So their purpose is fairly dated, they aren't even difficult to spot.

I have to say, Brutal Doom does them right.

I thought the same about Spectres until I started playing in Doom Retro. They are actually hard to spot in dark places.

With the high resolution, fail lighting and the fail fuzz effect most modern ports are using, the Spectres are like recolored demons, instead of stealthy demons :-\

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If I had to get rid of one monster, then it would be Revenant. If I must to modify them, then they could retain their unique homing projectiles, but they are a bit too fast and too durable. 300 HP for a skeleton? Screw it, even if that vest is an armour it should be half of that at most. (Also, every monster mod I try out seems to buff the s*** out of them, which is even more irritating)

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You can take a Rev down with 2-3 SSG shots, no big deal. The are not too durable...

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Has anyone ever calculated DPS for the Doom bestiary? And I mean, taking into tics, frames, speed, etc, etc. The revenant has to be at or near the top, given his remarkable speed.

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Hard to calculate. For example how would you calculate the Mancubus damage? Depends on the distance. So does the Chaingunner etc etc.

Close up the Manc and the Chaingunner do obscene amounts of damage, for example. So does the Rev in melee mode, he boxes like Roberto Duran.

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^ I'm not going to actually do it, but I'd calculate monster damage per second in the following way:

-Assume all attacks hit the target.
-Assume all attacks hit immediately after being produced by the attacker.
-Assume each hit deals exactly the average damage of the respective attack's damage range.
-Assume that immediately after the monster's attack animation ends, the animation restarts.
-Then damage per second = the sum of damage of all attacks produced by the monster during its attack animation, divided by the animation's duration in seconds.
-If a monster had multiple attack animations, for example a melee and a missile one, they'd be calculated independently on each other and the results listed separately, not merged into a single result.
-If an attack animation consists of a "preparation" part and then an "attack loop" part that loops as long as the monster has line of sight with its target, disregard the "preparation" part and only consider the "attack loop" part to be part of the animation.

This method doesn't accurately reflect how monsters really behave in the game, but at least it provides a well defined, exactly measurable standard.

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Job said:

Has anyone ever calculated DPS for the Doom bestiary? And I mean, taking into tics, frames, speed, etc, etc. The revenant has to be at or near the top, given his remarkable speed.


Probably a close tie for the third place with the Cacodemon, after the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind.

A more interesting metric would be how much damage each monster can deal to a specific opponent before either it or its opponent are defeated.

The Revenant can routinely defeat single Hell Knights one-on-one, especially if they trade some blows from a distance: the Revenant's higher damage per shot and the fact that it has a higher chance to actually hit its opponent, usually mean that the Rev manages to deal more than the Hell Knight's 500 HPs before the HK manages to deal 300 HP of damage to the Revenant. So that translates roughly to an effective 60% faster damage dealing speed.

Even if they close in the distance to melee, the Revenant has a slightly faster melee attack and can often stun-lock even more powerful opponents, further reducing the damage it receives.

A Revenant-Hell Knight fight is even money (with the advantages I mentioned giving a slight edge to the Revenant). Revenant vs Baron of Hell results in the Revenant dying, but not before dealing way more damage than its own HPs to the Baron, leaving it unable to sustain a second attack by another Revenant. One Baron vs 2 Revenants at the same time is a more interesting scenario, as the Baron might get killed relatively quickly before dealing significant damage to either.

riderr3 said:

Zombiemen - they just a cannon fodder! I almost no use this enemies in my wads.



Even zombiemen can be terrifying in the right circumstances -suppose you have 1% health left...would you rather enter a room full of Imps, PEs, Cacos etc. or one with just 3-4 "useless" Zombiemen? ;-) When they manage to snipe you across the map with a a single shot, they make for some particularly humiliating deaths.

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that monster was designed during some early discussion hdoom according to Mike12/HDoomGuy at least, which is why its highly sexualized. I don't think it was ever intended to be a "real" female chaingunner concept.

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Pain Elemental or nerf it so annoying when it keeps spaming lost souls in a small corridor and you cant kill him since the lost souls act as a shield.

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Doominator2 said:

cant kill him since the lost souls act as a shield.


Well, that's the whole point of spawning stuff, rather than shooting projectiles. Otherwise it'd be just a brown Cacodemon with hands.

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If I absolutely had to, then definitely the Baron of Hell. But I still love the Baron of Hell. I love all of Doom 2's monsters.

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The most annoying enemy of Doom II for me would be the hypersensitive people who blamed Doom for gun violence in the 90s.

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TraceOfSpades said:

The most annoying enemy of Doom II for me would be the hypersensitive people who blamed Doom for gun violence in the 90s.

Noice! That's gotta be my favourite answer. :D

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Chaingunner's hit points / damage delivered are completely mismatched. I'd remove it for that reason, though possibly it could be salvaged somehow.

I'd maybe vote to remove the Icon of Sin just because it's a terrible boss.

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