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Nevander

[v1.5] Doom 64: Retribution

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That wasn't meant to be defensive, I was simply asking when DSPDIEHI is supposed to play. What causes it to play instead of the normal death sound? Like I said above the odds seem to be a very low chance for DSPDIEHI to play which explains how I have never heard it while making the mod. If I can I might can just redefine this behavior in SNDINFO or something to point to the normal sound instead of copying the sound file twice.

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In PC Doom, the conditions for that sound to play are:

void A_PlayerScream (mobj_t* mo)
{
    // Default death sound.
    int		sound = sfx_pldeth;
	
    if ( (gamemode == commercial)
	&& 	(mo->health < -50))
    {
	// IF THE PLAYER DIES
	// LESS THAN -50% WITHOUT GIBBING
	sound = sfx_pdiehi;
    }
    
    S_StartSound (mo, sound);
}

So, if you want to hear it, you need to play in Doom II (that sound doesn't exist in Doom 1) and you need to have your health taken to between -51 and -100. Between -1 and -50, you get normal player death sound; -101 or even less and you instead get gibbed.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Gez said:

In PC Doom, the conditions for that sound to play are:


void A_PlayerScream (mobj_t* mo)
{
    // Default death sound.
    int		sound = sfx_pldeth;
	
    if ( (gamemode == commercial)
	&& 	(mo->health < -50))
    {
	// IF THE PLAYER DIES
	// LESS THAN -50% WITHOUT GIBBING
	sound = sfx_pdiehi;
    }
    
    S_StartSound (mo, sound);
}

So, if you want to hear it, you need to play in Doom II (that sound doesn't exist in Doom 1) and you need to have your health taken to between -51 and -100. Between -1 and -50, you get normal player death sound; -101 or even less and you instead get gibbed.

 

The sound does exist in the Ultimate Doom iwad, but it doesn't get played by vanilla Doom. Ports generally do play it.

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27 minutes ago, Jan said:

 

The sound does exist in the Ultimate Doom iwad, but it doesn't get played by vanilla Doom. Ports generally do play it.

Im pretty sure it went in the IWAD by accident. IIRC, a lot of Doom and Doom 2 sounds went into the Ultimate Doom IWAD, creating duplicate entries and increasing the WAD size by 800kb or so.

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Polished up the plot for the episode a little bit. I really want to implement the Crucible and the Titan but I have no idea how I could. I'm thinking maybe I could create the Titan from a modified Cyberdemon with new attacks or something. Also, now that I understand the lore better, those screenshots I posted on the previous page would be an area inside Argent D'Nur.

 

Quote

Directly after killing the Mother Demon, you travel through a deep ancient cave system and reach an ancient portal to another realm of Hell; Argent D'Nur. It is in this realm where you come across many ancient and unholy structures and complexes of Hell, and soon discover the Night Sentinels and their war against the Demons. Seeing what is happening causes you to help the Sentinels destroy the Demons and join their fight throughout the "Umbral Plains." You eventually discover a sacred castle where you are blessed by the seraphim with unmatched strength and speed, even more so than ever before (this will be on the secret level of the episode, but we can assume the protagonist always finds the "secret" levels).

 

With this new power, you are challenged to a battle with the Titan, which you manage to defeat. The Praetor Suit is bestowed upon you along with the Crucible. Not long after, the Night Sentinels were betrayed and you seek retribution for what the Demons have done. You devastate many areas of Hell including the "Blood Temples," leaving nothing to chance and showing no mercy to eventually "end the dominion of the dark realm."

 

Your conquest doesn't stop in Argent D'Nur, you exit the realm and decide to head to the gates of Hell and work your way back deeper into Hell as you go. Upon reaching the outermost layer of Hell, you come across the Relay satellite which sent the message that started Doom 64's plot. The satellite was actually brought into Hell itself and is still broadcasting a faint signal (like Deimos in Hell in The Ultimate Doom). To divert the UAC's inevitable attempt to enter Hell themselves to investigate, you go inside to disable it for good.

 

After disabling the satellite's operation, you press on and come to another "Blood Keep," a heavily fortified Hell castle (no relation to Doom 64's original Blood Keep map) with thousands of Demons that are gearing up for another invasion into your own realm (the same one that eventually happens in DOOM 2016, while you are asleep).

 

Eventually you reach the tombs of this keep, but something is not right. Blinded by your lust for blood, you walk into a trap set by the Demons. You are overtaken by a demonic force of some kind, stripped of your armor, and entombed in the sacred sarcophagus and buried deep inside the tombs. Your armor is buried beside you, you and it both sealed into solid rock. The temple is demolished and collapsed over the Doom Slayer, and marked to signal all Demons that you must never be freed.

 

Cue DOOM 2016, in which the UAC re-enters Hell, discovers the temple, and bring you back to Mars. The Demons defend your burial with all of their might as to not allow the UAC to take you back to your home world, but the UAC along with Hayden manage to retrieve you, and Hell follows. The invasion begins and the Demons have no remaining choice. It's time, they have to kill you or you will awaken and end them all as you swore. You awaken, and begin seeking retribution on every living Demon you can find. Your blood boils with hate, and all Demons must die to avenge the Night Sentinels and wipe this filth from existence.

 

Rip and tear!

 

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I always thought that Doomguy stayed in Hell, found some more demons. In order to stop them from advancing, Doomguy started slaying them as much as possible.

 

The Sentinels would appear later on, probably surprised to see a strange guy from an alien world efficiently taking out the demons, and basically they did their job of slaying demons on one side and Doomguy handled the demons on his side. Then they meet up, he gains rep, slowly loses his human touch (but still there. Guy hasn't been in contact with humanity for sometime you know?), becomes more engaged with demon slaying, gets massive upgrade both mentally and physically, gets an upgraded suit too, becomes the keeper of the Crucible, Night Sentinels become eradicated, Argent D' Nur is decimated by Hellspawn.

 

After all that, Doomslayer keeps on killing like a machine, rage building up. He gets tricked and lies in sarcophagus for who knows how long. UAC got desperate for energy, they restart the teleportation experiments, discover Argent energy, and basically the UAC becomes a cult like always.

 

Doomslayer wakes up, finds the sight he sees to something like from a memory. 1+1=2. UAC messed up again. Doomslayer's already angry about the Sentinels extermination and Argent D' Nur's fall. UAC messing up didn't help calm him down. Because Doomslayer is apparently like Darth Vader, he expresses his anger through his action while keeping calm (no cursing, no tantrums, nothing).

 

Cue Doom 2016 as Doomslayer throws away the panel with Hayden's voice.

 

Looking forward to Retribution!

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Well, that was basically the original plot I had in mind but it didn't fit in with the lore from the testaments. They are a big influence in the events of Retribution, since they basically tell the Doomslayer's story post-Doom 64 and pre-DOOM 2016. There are some things I can do and some I can't easily, for example actually showing any of the original Night Sentinels is out of the question unless someone wants to make a spritesheet from their models and then I use them to create a friendly monster. I still need or hope for a full sheet for the Praetor Suit but I doubt that will happen, so getting the suit will have to be in lore only. Same goes for when we are "blessed" by the seraphim, I don't plan to modify the player stats but I will probably pretend with some kind of in-map scripted event. And yet again the same goes for the Crucible and the Titan.

 

Basically, a lot of what happens will have to be assumed due to the lack of resources as well as the lack of engine capability to interweave all this stuff. The best I can do is construct the levels to match more with DOOM 2016's aesthetic. I feel I am close to that with the way the fourth map is looking, it does remind me of Argent D'Nur quite a bit now.

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I might as well bring the gravity thing up again, because you're flat out wrong, even within your intentions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is your intention: everything but the player falls at standard gravity, but the player falls at D64 gravity.

 

You say my suggestion is bad because it makes everything look like "moon gravity". Funny thing is, at least as far as the player is concerned, your version is more "moon gravity" than even the original game. You have it set to 0.6, which is absurdly low.

 

Here are two options you can take to correct the "moon gravity" of the player:

 

1. Set the player's gravity in the actor to 0.857. Under normal 800 gravity, this is the correct rate of gravity to emulate Doom 64's behavior.

2. Set the player's gravity in the actor to 0.714, and set the level gravity to 960. This makes everything else fall as fast as PC while the player falls at Doom 64's rate.

 

Option 1 requires less changes and is closer to Doom 64's behavior than option 2. Option 2 takes into account that normal gravity looks slower anyway due to the 5:6 pixel ratio of the world. If you take either of these options, you should take option 1.

 

On another note, perhaps the player speeds could be adjusted to be accurate to Doom 64. Here are my calculated values:

 

Player.ForwardMove 0.96, 0.7543
Player.SideMove 1.0, 0.9429

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Where and how do you constantly come up with these magic numbers? I see you constantly posting stuff like this. Are you a wizard mathematician?

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The Doom 64 EX source code, and my knowledge of how the PC game behaves. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. It's your project, so feel free to utterly screw everything up, but if you're interested in not doing that, I suggest that you listen to me more.

 

Yes, I'm being arrogant and rude. I also happen to know that I'm correct about these things. Make what you will of that.

Edited by Blastfrog

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Even if you're correct about the numbers, there's nothing that says I'm wrong to make my project the way I want to. The OP has already been changed a long time ago with the words we don't speak crossed out. If you want a 100% faithful TC, then go and join the GEC Master Edition team and help theirs since theirs looks like it's on the fast track to beating mine.

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2 hours ago, Nevander said:

Even if you're correct about the numbers, there's nothing that says I'm wrong to make my project the way I want to.

Yeah, except the part where you advertised this as an accurate conversion from the get-go. Apologies for thinking it reasonable to try holding you to that.

 

EDIT: Oh, that's right, you outright reject the notion of accuracy.

 

2 hours ago, Nevander said:

If you want a 100% faithful TC, then go and join the GEC Master Edition team and help theirs since theirs looks like it's on the fast track to beating mine.

I'm not sure if they're open to outside collaborators, but seeing as you're entirely unwilling to be sensible, I may as well ask them instead.

 

I honestly wouldn't care at all otherwise, but my concern is people who might use a D64 TC for GZDoom as a basis for their own mods and levels. If your version is the "go-to", then it's a goddamn shame that it's so inaccurate and everyone else's projects would inherit your dense design failures.

Edited by Blastfrog

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Protip to everyone replying to this thread: if you approach someone in a needlessly confrontational and antagonistic way, they will react to you and your suggestions with a similar tone. This is not a case of big babies being sensitive, it's a social norm that most people get the hang of around preschool.

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I don't like being a dick, but it's difficult not to be when highly frustrated. I was civil about it at first, but I can't help but feel extremely frustrated that the best conversion of Doom 64 to GZDoom to date is being headed by someone who first advertises accuracy, then when people (other than myself!) point out inaccuracies, he gets defensive about it and closes his mind to any and all suggestions to improve matters, going all "my project, my way", etc. That's nice and all, but there's a bigger picture:

 

My concern is that anyone who wants to make a mod for Doom 64, but using GZDoom instead of Doom 64 EX, will inherit the deliberate flaws of Retribution should they build on top of it. I thought that reasoning should've been implicit, but I suppose expressly stating it isn't a bad idea.

 

It's not so much that I care about Retribution itself as much as it worries me that Nevander is in a position to set a completely broken standard for how "Doom 64 in GZDoom is".

 

Nevander is in a very influential position. Given the nature of the project as a port of an existing game, I feel that it bears some responsibility to be conservative and accurate. No, that responsibility doesn't really "exist", but I don't think I'm unreasonable to be highly concerned about it.

 

All that being said, I was coming at it from the position that accuracy is in any way important to Retribution, which Nevander has time and time again stated that it's not. Given that, how about this suggestion? If you want to go off doing all sorts of things that do not resemble the original game or its behavior, I encourage you go as far as you can. Make it your own thing as much as possible, to make it clear that this is not meant to be an accurate port, so that nobody makes the mistake to think that it ever was or will be.

 

Oh goodie, I made an ass of myself yet again. Congratulations, me!

Edited by Blastfrog

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Alright. Here's what I'm going to do. I am re-branding the project as an enhanced TC of Doom 64 to GZDoom. In regards to accuracy, you can't deny it is accurate as far as the actual content of the game goes. Perhaps the mechanics are not, which is where the word "enhanced" comes into play. The important thing to me from the beginning was to basically create a more respectable version of Doom 64 for GZDoom so we weren't stuck with GZDOOM 64 (no offense to nightside or whoever started ZDoom64).

 

I was hoping Brutal Doom 64 would have done what I did but unfortunately it ended up using GZDOOM 64 as the base instead of doing things fresh, which is what I did. I'm sure you have all noticed that. The maps I used were all from Doom 64, and the mechanics is something that isn't so easy to make identical to the original. Just look at the gross hack I did for the Unmaker laser. It's the closest I could see being possible to Doom 64's original without using a model. After Brutal Doom 64 was made, I decided to do my own version so that I could have a version of Doom 64 I was comfortable playing in GZDoom. What always mattered to me was that everything looked good, played smooth, and was built clean. My project has done that as far as I am concerned, and in comparison to everything else the game itself is accurate enough to be able to be called a proper TC of Doom 64.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying for the values like gravity and speed to be right, and they should be to some degree. The original way I did the gravity was purely to get things working, mainly so I could cross gaps correctly. I left it the way it is because I didn't see any harm in it. So what if the rest of the game is normal gravity? The game works and you can navigate everywhere you should be able to. If it has to be identical to Doom 64 you may as well be playing EX, which is something I've been saying since the beginning of this debacle.

 

If you absolutely must have 100% accurate Doom 64 in GZDoom, then you are more than welcome to do it yourself if you must or wait for someone else to come along and do it better. It looks like @Erick194's version of Doom 64 will do that for you. For now, mine is from now on an enhanced (but still accurate to a degree) version of Doom 64 in GZDoom.

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I somehow had it stuck in my head that it should be a certain way. I was immediately hyped when I saw the project announcement, and with the statement that it was meant to replace GZDoom 64 I was thrown through a loop when I saw it doing the same thing that I disliked that project for. For whatever it's worth (and considering my general pattern of behavior, probably not much), I sincerely apologize.

 

I look forward to your Retribution mapset. If anything, that's what the primary focus should be. Downplay the "port" part of it, and emphasize that it is your own creation that has a basis in Doom 64.

 

Dumb idea: what if only the Retribution campaign was part of the main Retribution WAD, and the original Doom 64 campaign was split off into an optional WAD?

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To be honest. Most of the inaccuracies in this mod are miniscule compared to GZDoom 64 or The Absolution TC and enhancements most are optional.

I really don't see what the fuss is about.

This is damn close to the original. I mean if you REALLY wanted an

1:1 port, Play EX instead.

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17 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

To be honest. Most of the inaccuracies in this mod are miniscule compared to GZDoom 64 or The Absolution TC and enhancements most are optional.

I really don't see what the fuss is about.

This is damn close to the original. I mean if you REALLY wanted an

1:1 port, Play EX instead.

I said that back then. If anyone feels that this mod is inaccurate, then stop complaining, pick one of the other iterations and start comparing. Simple as that!!!

That debate of which one of all the Doom 64 mods is accurate...it's pointless at this point...sigh... 

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1 hour ago, leodoom85 said:

That debate of which one of all the Doom 64 mods is accurate...it's pointless at this point...sigh... 

Actually it's not pointless after seeing the most recent video of Doom 64 GEC Master Edition (I don't know what to call it so I will call it that). From what I can tell, that will be the best version of Doom 64 for GZDoom to date, even beating mine in terms of quality. Those guys are wizards I swear.

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At least, you kinda compared that version with yours. And as I said, your mod can STILL be improved!!! It's just personal tastes man, keep it up...

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Just now, leodoom85 said:

And as I said, your mod can STILL be improved!!!

Why bother? I may be a total asshole about it, but I was trying to help him do just that to no avail. The only time he listened to me was in regard to the pixel ratio and player viewheight.

 

Besides, he already publicly stated over on Erick's thread that he'll probably just turn the unique parts of this project into a PWAD for the GEC version. It's better this way.

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44 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

The only time he listened to me was in regard to the pixel ratio and player viewheight.

Well those are actually very important aspects. Everything looks way too tall without the pixelratio adjustment and the viewheight needs to match with the map scale. Any proper TC of Doom 64 needs those regardless.

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2 hours ago, Nevander said:

Well those are actually very important aspects. Everything looks way too tall without the pixelratio adjustment and the viewheight needs to match with the map scale. Any proper TC of Doom 64 needs those regardless.

Okay, but I consider the player gravity and movement speed to be important too. I don't really care about (though would prefer) precision, for example I'd be fine with player gravity being 0.85 instead of 0.857, etc.

 

Hell, anything that's at least in the ballpark of the original game, which I can tell you that your setting of 0.6 is extremely far off the mark. I get that you're not going for precision, but when I say something is really off the mark, I know it and mean it. What pisses me off is that when I pointed it out the first time, you acted like it was some carefully crafted design choice. You just said today "I only set it up that way just to get it working at all".

 

I suppose none of it matters, I'm just tired of people not taking me seriously. Perhaps I give ample reason for people to not take me seriously in many ways, but my extensive knowledge of technical trivia should not be dismissed so lightly as so many people around here do. I know my shit! I want to be useful to others, at least in ensuring technical accuracy.

 

My behavior today was simply unacceptable, but when you say things like this way back...

On 12/10/2016 at 5:32 AM, Nevander said:

But believe me, come release, any feedback will be accepted and anything that needs changing will be done and at that point the entire community will be collaborating to improve the end product.

...surely my frustration with your constant rejection of simple and objectively correct fixes is understandable?

Edited by Blastfrog

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2 hours ago, Blastfrog said:

Why bother? I may be a total asshole about it, but I was trying to help him do just that to no avail.

The thing about feedback is that, the creator has the FINAL say in what they want to implement or not.

Again just play EX. 

But then again this is sodaholic so...

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30 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

The thing about feedback is that, the creator has the FINAL say in what they want to implement or not.

Yeah, and the thing about it is, he's being completely hypocritical when he says "the community can help tweak things to be more accurate and I will at least consider", and when I do just that, he's like "nawwww, idgaf", right out of hand. And then everyone applauds him for it and shits on me. How am I supposed to feel? Indifferent? No, I'm pissed. I have good reason to be pissed. Wouldn't you be pissed too if you found yourself in the same position?

 

30 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Again just play EX.

I never directly responded to anyone telling me to "just use EX" before, but I suppose I may as well state why I think that's a silly thing to tell me.

 

No, I am not after a literal 100% accurate recreation. I already have EX on my computer for that purpose! What I want is something that is as accurate as possible within plain, official GZDoom. Just because it's not possible to get it 100% accurate doesn't mean that any tweaks to get it closer are somehow a waste of time.

 

Erick/Geraldo's project looks great, perhaps perfect, even, but it still doesn't do what I want - it uses a custom engine. The whole point of what I've been saying this entire time is to have Doom 64 recreated as accurately as possible in the official builds of GZDoom. It's the most common port, it's broadly compatible, it's actively maintained by a large-ish group of highly skilled developers and will be for years to come, etc.

 

Don't get me wrong, Erick/Geraldo's custom engine looks really snazzy. It's just that, well, it's yet another custom engine that has a narrow use case, completely defeating the purpose of having it in a broadly compatible engine. There's also the distinct possibility that it may not see regular maintenance, since it's a much smaller project with only two people involved.

 

So no, don't tell me "just use EX". How about, instead, you "just use common sense" to read between the lines to figure out what I'm obviously getting at here?

 

30 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

But then again this is sodaholic so...

You can fuck right off if you're going to attack my character. I may be an asshole, but I've not attacked anyone's character once in recent memory.

 

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3 hours ago, Blastfrog said:

he already publicly stated over on Erick's thread that he'll probably just turn the unique parts of this project into a PWAD for the GEC version. It's better this way.

No, it's not... unless the engine changes for all the GEC projects are merged/ported into mainline GZDoom. Otherwise several years from now it would be The Absolution TC situation all over again (meaning its fork of JDoom which has never been merged into upstream Doomsday, and which can't be merged due to the vast changes Doomsday received. The fact that the GEC devs are forking the 1.9 branch instead of the 3.0 branch or even the 2.4 branch doesn't help matters...)

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40 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

Yeah, and the thing about it is, he's being completely hypocritical when he says "the community can help tweak things to be more accurate and I will at least consider", and when I do just that, he's like "nawwww, idgaf", right out of hand.

It's not that I'm saying IDGAF but rather picking and choosing what I see as being a major priority. In time, maybe even for 1.3, I will make adjustments to gravity and speed as you suggest but I simply never saw that aspect as a critical component to the overall accuracy of the TC.

 

If you want maximum accuracy, then of course it is. I am not arguing that, but rather just stating that some things are not so critical. I'd rather fix real bugs and improve things that need it the most first and then consider smaller changes to adjust accuracy over time which is what I have been doing for the most part.

 

It's not that I'm even shutting out feedback at all either. For 1.3 I have already added an option to turn off the level name messages that some didn't like too much as well as the reverb effects just in case someone downloads 1.3 and hates them, they can be disabled. I could have said "nope F you, not putting in a toggle or adding reverbs ever" but I am, it's just some things are taking priority right now.

 

Not to mention I have shit loads of maps still to make.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

There's also the distinct possibility that it may not see regular maintenance, since it's a much smaller project with only two people involved.

So what about mine then? I'm a one man team basically for mine, everything you see in 1.0-1.2 was all done by me except for the base for the resources which was already compiled by the WMI people. I do plan to continue improving my project, I just might have to change the focus since trying to do an accurate one is quickly becoming harder and harder to hold up, and Erick/Gerardo's version is looking to be what you might have been expecting.

 

I will say I love Doom 64 and I would never abandon this project because it could become the basis for anything Doom 64 in official GZDoom builds as you suggested, but I'm just not sure how far I can take it when GZDoom as a whole is still lacking many Doom 64 features that their version seems to contain based on recent videos.

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6 minutes ago, Danfun64 said:

No, it's not... unless the engine changes for all the GEC projects are merged/ported into mainline GZDoom. Otherwise several years from now it would be The Absolution TC situation all over again (meaning its fork of JDoom which has never been merged into upstream Doomsday, and which can't be merged due to the vast changes Doomsday received. The fact that the GEC devs are forking the 1.9 branch instead of the 3.0 branch or even the 2.4 branch doesn't help matters...)

True, very true.

 

Worst case scenario is that Graf doesn't find it appropriate to merge in the new features, which I fear may be the case. We'll have to wait and see, though. If that's the case, I'll jump on the opportunity to accurately port their project to mainline GZDoom. I'm sick and tired of seeing it done wrong time and time again; if I want it done right, I must do it myself. And I really, really don't want anyone to get in my way if that's the way things go.

 

3 minutes ago, Nevander said:

So what about mine then?

The difference is that yours is built for mainline GZDoom. Major accuracy issues aside, your project is still preferable to Erick/Geraldo's on that basis alone.

 

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EDIT: Argh, still getting used to this new forum UI. Please delete this post, I meant to edit my last post, not make another post.

 

I miss being able to quote things by opening a new tab and pasting in what I wanted. This editor is a lot fancier, but it's also a pain in the ass.

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4 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

I miss being able to quote things by opening a new tab and pasting in what I wanted. This editor is a lot fancier, but it's also a pain in the ass.

I miss the raw code editor with that glorious monospace font the most. I can make posts a lot easier using raw code believe it or not.

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