[v1.5] Doom 64: Retribution

[Gerardo194]

@Nevander, @cyan0s1s, I will be considering some of your ideas to make the plot. It doesn't need to be a heavy one, just creativity is needed. I will check up the inconsistencies.

[jazzmaster9]

5 hours ago, JohnnyTheWolf said:

Meh. Another Marine would have taken his place.

 

After all, until Doom 2016 came along and reimagined Doomguy as some sort of demigod with a convoluted backstory, all Doom protagonists had been just regular Marines who prevailed against the forces of Hell through wit and sheer luck. 

 

Basically, Doomguy went from being a futuristic John McLane to an edgy Terminator.

Did someone mention Doom 4 around Johnny?

Oh man here we go... 

[Nevander]

Well guys, making monsters fade in is a lot harder than you or I imagined. No matter what I do a new problem arises. I am trying to convert the scripts and functions into more user friendly and convenient functions but I keep running into snags.

 

For example, if I want to fade in a monster which is already translucent I need to get the alpha first to know how much to fade up to. That's all good and fine, but what if I fade a thing out first? That reduces the actor's alpha to 0. Then if I want to fade it in, since the alpha of the actor is now 0, nothing happens.

EDIT: For this, I think I will just modify the script I've been using and hardcode some target alphas depending on actor classes or something, that way there's always a target alpha the script tries to use depending on class. Will report back later.

EDIT 2: I did it now, there are alphas preset before fading so it knows what to fade to.

 

Another problem is now for some reason when I fade in a thing it will appear full 1.0 alpha for one tic then start to fade in, and there are no delays between the function being called and the fading starting.

EDIT: Nevermind that, I needed to use ACS_ExecuteWithResult instead.

 

Doing this to all maps is going to take longer than I thought because I need to get these damn functions worked out first.

 

Also, you guys who really want the fading to be a thing better thank the hell out of me after I'm done. This process is killing me, but luckily once I get the scripts and functions worked out perfectly, refactoring my code for spawning will be easy as shit.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Nevander : blah

[JohnnyTheWolf]

9 hours ago, Nevander said:

That's not true. We are the same Doomguy as we were through Ultimate Doom to Doom 64. I'd like to think we even still the same one in Doom 2016 also. The story texts and plot tie that together and prove we are the same one throughout.

I am including the protagonists from Doom 3 and Resurrection of Evil as well.

 

And even though I would have loved to see the Doomslayer be Doomguy, clearly they are not meant to be the same person - unless Id Software says otherwise, but as far as I know, they have not.

 

Of course, I am just pointing that out. This is your fanfiction after all, so you can do whatever you want.

Edited April 11, 2017 by JohnnyTheWolf

[isaacpop23]

I'm fairly sure that Doom 3 and ROE were reboots, simply their own story line. Doom 4 however, appears to be thought with the story of the classic games and 64 in mind, it just seems to perfectly aligned to be accidental.

So there are two stories from my perspective:

Ultimate Doom -> Doom 2 -> Doom 64 -> Doom 4

Doom 3 -> Resurrection of Evil

So basically Doom 64 was Doom 3 in terms of lore.
 

[leodoom85]

3 minutes ago, isaacpop23 said:

I'm fairly sure that Doom 3 and ROE were reboots, simply their own story line. Doom 4 however, appears to be thought with the story of the classic games and 64 in mind, it just seems to perfectly aligned to be accidental.

So there are two stories from my perspective:

Ultimate Doom -> Doom 2 -> Doom 64 -> Doom 4

Doom 3 -> Resurrection of Evil

So basically Doom 64 was Doom 3 in terms of lore.
 

I don't think so. In my opinion, Doom 64 is like Final Doom, just another game or megawad with its own ending. Just interpreting that Doom 64 is somewhat canonical to the story of Doom 4 seems out of place. And also, again in my opinion, Doom 4 has its own story, a reinterpretation of the main character, if you ask me. The Doom 64 ending is like an open ending, not connected to another Doom. But I understand that between those two games (Doom 64 and Doom 4) seems too coincidental...

[Lila Feuer]

I like to think of a timeline where Doom 1, Doom 64 and Doom '16 are a trilogy, because it really shows a leap in graphics technology and the story actually makes a lot of sense this way. Doom II was never mentioned in Doom 64 IIRC so it may as well of never happened.

[Gez]

ETA for v2.0 with proper lighting?

[leodoom85]

Just now, cyan0s1s said:

I like to think of a timeline where Doom 1, Doom 64 and Doom '16 are a trilogy, because it really shows a leap in graphics technology and the story actually makes a lot of sense this way. Doom II was never mentioned in Doom 64 IIRC so it may as well of never happened.

That's the problem. Timelines in Doom are really vague...

[42PercentHealth]

3 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

That's the problem. Timelines in Doom are really vague...

That's 'cuz the developers weren't too concerned about the story. They just wanted the player to have fun killing demons, so it didn't much matter to them when/where the Plutonia Experiment took place, whether it was before or after Doom 1, Doom 64, etc., etc.

[Lila Feuer]

11 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

That's the problem. Timelines in Doom are really vague...

Could be worse, could be Wolfenstein series' timeline.
 

For all we know Doom II could be an alternative bad future timeline where Plutonia and TNT follow after because Earth was invaded and Doomguy was too late to respond so now we're doomed (huhu) forever with PWADs that continue after the Earth War and thousands of Icons of Sin get pumped out everyday to keep us busy.

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, cyan0s1s said:

Could be worse, could be Wolfenstein series' timeline.
 

For all we know Doom II could be an alternative bad future timeline where Plutonia and TNT follow after because Earth was invaded and Doomguy was too late to respond so now we're doomed (huhu) forever with PWADs that continue after the Earth War and thousands of Icons of Sin get pumped out everyday to keep us busy.

For creating a timeline, you need a proper story with no plotholes. And doing a reboot or something...like with the new Doom

[isaacpop23]

10 minutes ago, cyan0s1s said:

I like to think of a timeline where Doom 1, Doom 64 and Doom '16 are a trilogy, because it really shows a leap in graphics technology and the story actually makes a lot of sense this way. Doom II was never mentioned in Doom 64 IIRC so it may as well of never happened.

I figured Doom 2 was a continuation of the invasion of Doom 1. They got chased off Mars, so they snuck over to Earth and started there while the Doom Slayer was busy finishing up in Mars hell.

 

14 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

I don't think so. In my opinion, Doom 64 is like Final Doom, just another game or megawad with its own ending. Just interpreting that Doom 64 is somewhat canonical to the story of Doom 4 seems out of place. And also, again in my opinion, Doom 4 has its own story, a reinterpretation of the main character, if you ask me. The Doom 64 ending is like an open ending, not connected to another Doom. But I understand that between those two games (Doom 64 and Doom 4) seems too coincidental...
 

The Final Doom wads do seem to be their own thing, but 64 appears to be following something. Given the intro story of 64 it's a sequel, regardless of what you say it's a sequel to, there's a previous installment. As for trying to connect D4 and D64, I didn't pay too much attention to the lore in D4, but it does seem to mesh. But no, there is no official thing saying they're within the same story, so I get why you say it's out of place, though like you said it's just too coincidental.

[Nevander]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

ETA for v2.0 with proper lighting?

In all honesty it's going to be a while. I need to first fix all maps to fade spawn things in instead of teleport. I'm getting hung up because trying to get the functions and scripts for them working flawlessly is a challenge since there are so many aspects to consider.

 

Once that is done, I really need to get the new episode maps going. I don't want to rush but the original point of this project was to include a new episode and many are waiting for it more so than the lighting effects.

 

The lighting will come after this. It will take a while because I have to look at the lighting in each map again and either get the exact RGB (which will take even longer since I can't just copy+paste all sector color properties at one time across editors) or take a best guess and tweak it to match them the best I can. No matter what I do though it will look better than the way it does now.

 

One thing I believe though is that the techbase maps will benefit the most from this. Right now even with single sector colored lighting going on, the Hell maps look really good IMO. The techbase maps have lots of white and gray textures, so the missing fading light is glaringly obvious.

 

When I start doing them, I may release the mod with the techbase ones done first, then release 2.1 or something with the Hell ones done since they don't need it as badly in my experience.

[Gerardo194]

@Nevander I have some ideas for the plot but, do you consider to include the Dark Lords of the nine circles or rings and the battle with the Titan in the episode? 

[Nevander]

If I can learn more about it and know how I would work it into the maps then sure. Like I said, only played the new DOOM one time, I should probably play it through again before finishing the plot and maps.

[MinerOfWorlds]

In map01 the door that opens when you get the chainsaw has a moving floor. (i don't know if it was in the original so if it was i guess you could leave it)

[Gerardo194]

@Nevander if you want to have more info about Doom '16, you can read it here http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Codex/Artifacts

read about the Slayer's Testaments and about the Wraits and tell me what do you think about it. 

[Nevander]

1 hour ago, MinerOfWorlds said:

In map01 the door that opens when you get the chainsaw has a moving floor. (i don't know if it was in the original so if it was i guess you could leave it)

EDIT: Nevermind I see what you meant now, there's two doors there. One is above the conveyor which is supposed to move. Apparently the other one directly beside the Chainsaw is moving too due to using the same tag for door opening. That's a quick fix.

 

There's always been a moving floor there. If you're referring to the fact that in Brutal Doom 64 it doesn't move under the door, that's because Sarge missed it. It's supposed to move with the rest of the conveyors.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Nevander

[JohnnyTheWolf]

6 hours ago, isaacpop23 said:

I'm fairly sure that Doom 3 and ROE were reboots, simply their own story line.

I think so as well. I brought them up because, just like classic Doom games and Doom 64, they portrayed Doomguy as essentially an unexceptional Marine who somehow managed to pull it through.

[Da Werecat]

4 hours ago, JohnnyTheWolf said:

I brought them up because, just like classic Doom games and Doom 64, they portrayed Doomguy as essentially an unexceptional Marine who somehow managed to pull it through.

The manual for Doom 3 refers to him as one of the toughest there is. I don't remember the exact wording, but it's a quote from the manual for the first game.

[Graf Zahl]

23 hours ago, Nevander said:

Well guys, making monsters fade in is a lot harder than you or I imagined. No matter what I do a new problem arises. I am trying to convert the scripts and functions into more user friendly and convenient functions but I keep running into snags.

 

I'd suggest to do the fade from DECORATE or ZSCRIPT, whatever you use.

Give each monster a FadeIn state that loops until it is fully visible, then you can use ACS'S SetActorState function to set this state after spawning. You are right that it will be a lot of work trying to do this solely in ACS. Of course it also depends on whether fading monsters are supposed to move or not, but from what I remember they only start to move when being fully visible.

 

[Nevander]

I actually had considered a DECORATE only solution, maybe using inherited versions of the actors with modified states and then spawning those instead. It's still a good idea but I think I found a good enough solution with ACS, which you can find here: https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=55953

 

It works good so far but I have to be very careful with TIDs and such.

[Da Werecat]

49 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Of course it also depends on whether fading monsters are supposed to move or not, but from what I remember they only start to move when being fully visible.

No, they start moving right away. They also can hurt you, but you can't hurt them until they're fully manifested.

 

But this is the kind of quirk that shouldn't be strictly emulated if it requires a clumsy solution, IMO.

[Nevander]

6 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

No, they start moving right away. They also can hurt you, but you can't hurt them until they're fully manifested.

 

But this is the kind of quirk that shouldn't be strictly emulated if it requires a clumsy solution, IMO.

Which is some BS by the way, how fair is that? I've had that happen so many times in EX where I try to shoot and I happened to have shot at them like literally 3 tics too soon and my shot did absolutely nothing. The method I am using now fades them as a secondary effect, which means they are moving and shootable instantly while they continue to fade in.

 

To emulate it perfectly I could throw in some kind of way to make them unable to be shot until they reach their target alpha, but that strict adherence to the source would be very annoying IMO and would surely piss me off lol.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

10 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

The manual for Doom 3 refers to him as one of the toughest there is. I don't remember the exact wording, but it's a quote from the manual for the first game.

The exact quote is: "You are a marine, one of Earth's toughest, hardened in combat and trained for action." To me, it does not sound like you are some kind of super soldier so much as the usual military recruitement propaganda.

 

Besides, everyone early on in the game treats you as just another recruit and does not seem to think much of you. Again, much like John McLane in the Die Hard series, Doomguy is the right guy in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[isaacpop23]

It may be that he started out as a normal marine, but got warped through his repeated travels to hell. Even if you discount the trip in D2, he's still been there twice, and as the story from D64 shows, it had it's affects. Also, god knows what the hell those artifacts do to your body, I'd find it hard to believe that the invulnerability spheres, invisibility spheres, and berserk packs had no extra affects that changed his demeanor to what you see in D4.
 

[leodoom85]

9 minutes ago, isaacpop23 said:

It may be that he started out as a normal marine, but got warped through his repeated travels to hell. Even if you discount the trip in D2, he's still been there twice, and as the story from D64 shows, it had it's affects. Also, god knows what the hell those artifacts do to your body, I'd find it hard to believe that the invulnerability spheres, invisibility spheres, and berserk packs had no extra affects that changed his demeanor to what you see in D4.
 

Don't forget ALL the megaspheres and soulspheres picked up in all the trips to Hell. Doomguy is freaking Shang Tsung at this point with all those souls :D

[Nevander]

Not to mention being buried by the Demons while they invaded again. That would surely piss me off if I was him and make me 100% more brutal on those bastards. Of course that is if we assume the stories are connected.

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, Nevander said:

Not to mention being buried by the Demons while they invaded again. That would surely piss me off if I was him and make me 100% more brutal on those bastards. Of course that is if we assume the stories are connected.

Who else can get pissed after all the time buried and missing all events while probably researching your body for bad purposes? I would kill everybody who stand before me without asking, without hesitation and without saying a single word until I say enough... :P