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Nevander

[v1.5] Doom 64: Retribution

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Thats a really interesting thing to pursue the D64 history directly after the death of the motherdemon. It now goes over the restrictions of the original game. This is a really awesome thing. Looking forward for your map episode. And i will prolly try myself to do one after based on all this!

Also, the way the demons spawns in BD64 is not like the original game, i don't know if you planned to make it like the original?

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JohnnyTheWolf said:

Is this recreated beta level going to be a Doom 64 reimagining of TNT Evilution's Pharaoh?

No, it's going to be a whole new level created from a combination of imagination and working in the areas seen (roughly) in these screenshots:

https://doom64ex.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/021.jpg
https://doom64ex.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/022.jpg

I will do what I did with my D!ZONE level earlier this year and basically come up with a workable level based purely on their screenshots. I wish a Midway dev would dump all the Doom 64 resources and stuff that wasn't ever finalized like what Romero did. But, that probably won't happen so this is as close as we get.

Mayhem666 said:

Also, the way the demons spawns in BD64 is not like the original game, i don't know if you planned to make it like the original?

I've tried it the way Doom 64 does and it looks awkward on monsters if they don't fade in. Fading in the monsters when they spawn is something I haven't figured out yet, not even sure if it's possible. Doom 64 was able to place any monster on the map and check a box to make it be a spawner monster, which means you can spawn that thing at any time with a script or line action and it stays reusable as a spawner for that specific thing. Really nice system, I wish Doom could do that.

For now, monsters teleport in the normal Doom way with teleport fog. It makes more sense logically for monsters to spawn with fog the way the player does when teleporting.

For items and stuff, yes. They "appear" with no fog and play the Doom 64 spawn sound, but they don't fade in. At least it looks less awkward on items compared to monsters.

If anyone has any ideas for how to do fade ins, please let me know and I'll try it.

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Nevander said:

I've tried it the way Doom 64 does and it looks awkward on monsters if they don't fade in. Fading in the monsters when they spawn is something I haven't figured out yet, not even sure if it's possible. Doom 64 was able to place any monster on the map and check a box to make it be a spawner monster, which means you can spawn that thing at any time with a script or line action and it stays reusable as a spawner for that specific thing. Really nice system, I wish Doom could do that.

someone made an ACS script that makes Monsters fade in.
It was the same script I used for Innocence X.

Here's the code I used: http://pastebin.com/gwrxxqj2

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jazzmaster9 said:

someone made an ACS script that makes Monsters fade in.
It was the same script I used for Innocence X.

Here's the code I used: http://pastebin.com/gwrxxqj2

Sweeeeet. Got it working.

So basically, anywhere I have Thing_SpawnFacing I'd need to go in and change to Thing_FadeIn and remove the fog argument. Probably worth it in the end, I'll start using this method now for spawning. The only question is, if I have to use a forced spawn what do I do. There have been some spots where I had to force spawn a thing.

EDIT: And also fading things out... like in that Soulsphere puzzle in Dark Entries. When it moves, it fades out and then a different Soulsphere fades in and then out until it stops on one. In the original game, the Soulsphere doesn't actually teleport or move at ALL. There is a different Soulsphere and Armor Bonus on all the posts (all set to be spawners) and then the sequence simply spawns in and then fades out until it reaches the end.

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I'd really like to collaborate on this. Perhaps I could tackle a few of the maps, and ensure accuracy in general. Are you open to the idea, Nevander?

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Blastfrog said:

I'd really like to collaborate on this. Perhaps I could tackle a few of the maps, and ensure accuracy in general. Are you open to the idea, Nevander?

Well, when I starting doing the maps it was pretty much just something that I was going to do by myself since I doubted that anyone else would have wanted to take on a project like this. I generated enough interest in that other thread, and so I've posted my own thread on it so it's official. I haven't really given any thought to collaborative efforts on this.

Apart from community feedback on release, along with the usual bug reports, suggestions, and such, I'm not sure if I need any extra hands. No offense intended, so please don't take that as me saying "no, go away" because I'm not. I just always saw this project as something that just I am doing. But believe me, come release, any feedback will be accepted and anything that needs changing will be done and at that point the entire community will be collaborating to improve the end product.

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Finished Watch Your Step, got Blood Keep's lighting done, and started on In the Void. Got a screenshot up for it on the OP.

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Nevander said:

Finished Watch Your Step, got Blood Keep's lighting done, and started on In the Void. Got a screenshot up for it on the OP.


Damn... Just by looking at the screenshot of In The Void, it looks exactly like the original, i'm talking about the fog thing.

Looks really awesome, keep on the great work, i want to play that so badly :P

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So I found something interesting in Spawned Fear.

This map seems like it was designed incorrectly, since both the switch near the blue key and killing the Barons will lower the blue key gate. Looking at the map layout, I believe the switch before the door was supposed to be set up to raise the nukage grate, killing the Barons does nothing, and only the switch lowers the gate. I say this because if press the switch first, then kill the Barons, when returning to the blue key you will notice the floor of the gate has lowered down past floor level, and you can see the "I suck at making maps" texture with ease. If you kill the Barons first, and then press the switch, all is normal. Killing the Barons must be a lower by value action, which means the floor would lower regardless of the floor height.

At any rate in my remake, the original map behavior of both actions lowering the gate has been kept in. However, due to the way the "lower to lowest" action works in original Doom, the floor will never go past floor level.

I am debating whether or not to change this behavior to what I think was meant to happen, but for now it will behave as the original does, minus the floor going below floor level.

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EDIT: Lol. On second thought, I think I wrote an overly complicated script for something that is actually extremely simple. It just occurred to me when playing that part again that it's simply three spawn actions for a Pain Elemental, then at the end of those three, it spawns the Hell Knights. The only reason you never see the other two if you let the first one live is because it's blocking the spawn area from being able to spawn another. If you let it live and lure it away, another will spawn. The macro seems to be trying to spawn 3 in sequence regardless of them being killed or not, and then the Hell Knights spawn anyway. FML!

---------

That room with the Pain Elementals and the floor that lowers downward into a pit in Spawned Fear is weird, still trying to figure out just what exactly is going on. I wrote a script already that seems to be doing the trick.

In the original (or in EX at least), killing the Pain Elemental will cause another to spawn (to a maximum of 3). However, if you don't kill the Pain Elemental within a certain amount of time, it won't cause another to spawn and will instead spawn the Hell Knights which then open the doors once killed.

The part I can't figure out is how to spawn the Pain Elemental right away after killing the first. I have to give the player a long enough delay to attempt to kill it, and if it's dead or not, do a comparison and then determine if the Hell Knights should spawn. Nowhere can I find a way to "jump" and immediately spawn the next...

My code for that script (possible mind blowing within):

Spoiler

script 6 (void)
{
	Floor_LowerToLowest(12, 64);
	Delay(35 * 3);
	
	Radius_Quake(2, 175, 0, 16, 0);
	Floor_LowerByValue(15, 16, 80);
	Floor_LowerByValue(16, 16, 96);
	Floor_LowerByValue(17, 16, 112);
	Floor_LowerByValue(18, 16, 128);
	Floor_LowerByValue(19, 16, 144);
	Ceiling_RaiseByValue(15, 16, 80);
	Ceiling_RaiseByValue(16, 16, 96);
	Ceiling_RaiseByValue(17, 16, 112);
	Ceiling_RaiseByValue(18, 16, 128);
	Delay(35 * 5);
	
	Thing_SpawnFacing(6, T_PAINELEMENTAL, 0, 255);
	Delay(1);
	
	While(ThingCount(0, 255) > 0)
	{
		SetThingSpecial(255, ACS_Execute, 7);
		Delay(35 * 5);
		
		if(spawnAgain == 1)
		{
			Thing_SpawnFacing(6, T_PAINELEMENTAL, 0, 255);
			spawnNum = spawnNum + 1;
			spawnAgain = 0;
		}
		else if(spawnAgain == 0)
		{
			seqDone = 1;
			Thing_ChangeTID(255, 254);
		}
	}
	if(seqDone == 1)
	{
		Thing_SpawnFacing(7, T_HELLKNIGHT, 0, 254);
		Delay(5);
		
		While(ThingCount(0, 254) > 0) Delay(10);
		Delay(35);
		
		Door_Open(10, 16, 0);
		Door_Open(21, 16, 0);
	}
}
script 7 (void)
{
	if(seqDone == 0)
	{
		if(spawnNum <= 2) spawnAgain = 1;
		else if(spawnNum >= 3) spawnAgain = 0;
	}
	else if(seqDone == 1) Delay(1);
}

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I always get the feeling that The Spiral was meant to be another bonus "fun" map. It just feels so short and simple compared to literally every other map in the main game's map list. The most complicated thing on it was the fake 3D thing in the middle, which didn't even take long to fix.

Breakdown is going to be a challenge... it has multiple 3D walkable grates, a 3D floating switch, a sliding door, and more.

I might be adding a little something to Breakdown... given that it was supposed to have a super secret Easter egg. Absolution TC added one, I think I will too.

UPDATE: Decided to convert the fake sliding door effect into an actual Polyobject. Looks a lot better IMO.

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What would you guys like to see as the reward for solving my interpretation of Breakdown's super secret? Right now I have a Megasphere and 4 cell packs, but I'm not sure if that is good enough given the difficulty of solving it. It's not like super difficult but it's out of the player's way enough that they are going to expect a great reward. I was thinking about linking a secret exit that goes to the Titlemap level but I'm undecided. Share your thoughts!

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Nice to see that finally someone tries to seriously approach this.

AFAIK all former attempts to port Doom64 to GZDoom were based on The Absolution, and I have no idea how much its levels had to be compromised to work with the Doomsday engine.

I once tried porting it over myself, I actually got most of the scripts working in FraggleScript, which I chose over ACS because it was easier to extend back then.

This never got fully done, though, because far too many of the maps required extensive touchup to remove all the render hacks that were needed to work around Doomsday's limitations.

What this led to, though is, that I have all the levels from The Outcast, Redemption Denied and The Reckoning almost completely working, except for exactness of the monsters which I didn't really bother with.

If you need anything on the engine side, I'd be happy to help, because this is something I really would like to see done in the best way possible.

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Nevander said:

I was thinking about linking a secret exit that goes to the Titlemap level but I'm undecided.


Sounds good. But speaking of super secret rewards, what do you plan to do for Hectic?

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Graf Zahl said:

Nice to see that finally someone tries to seriously approach this.

AFAIK all former attempts to port Doom64 to GZDoom were based on The Absolution, and I have no idea how much its levels had to be compromised to work with the Doomsday engine.

I once tried porting it over myself, I actually got most of the scripts working in FraggleScript, which I chose over ACS because it was easier to extend back then.

This never got fully done, though, because far too many of the maps required extensive touchup to remove all the render hacks that were needed to work around Doomsday's limitations.

What this led to, though is, that I have all the levels from The Outcast, Redemption Denied and The Reckoning almost completely working, except for exactness of the monsters which I didn't really bother with.

If you need anything on the engine side, I'd be happy to help, because this is something I really would like to see done in the best way possible.

Thank you, I appreciate the support. Any support I get will make it easier for me to put forth my best efforts.

The maps do indeed take quite a bit of touchup to get them to look like they do in Doom 64. This has even meant drawing new geometry to change into 3D floors in order to allow sky to appear where it should but still allow the normal non render hack geometry to show up through it.

A good example is the start area of MAP20 Breakdown. I had to raise up this area and create 3D floors for the connecting beams so that you can see the taller middle pillars above these beams. Another example is the outside area of MAP05 Tech Center. Same problem with the beams there.

I plan to do the The Outcast, Redemption Denied and The Reckoning levels some time after the main level set is done. I'd think of them as their own "expansion pack" style episodes, to add more content to the main game as time goes on to eventually reach a full Doom 64 compilation game.

There is one issue that I've been struggling with. It's not so much on the engine side of things, more-so the sound side of things. There seems to be an issue where if you play a particular sound, like an item pickup, and then play it again after a specific amount of time, there will be an audible "pop" sound.

I believe this "popping" effect to be a sudden switch between a high and low amplitude in the wavelengths. This problem never occurs in EX because all the sound effects are MIDI, so no wavelengths. You may recall me asking in the "How do I" thread if it were possible to use MIDI lumps as sound effects. I wish it were possible, because this would not only solve this problem but also allow me to use the direct from the source sounds.

It then would of course require the soundfont for them to sound correct, which is already needed for the music. I don't plan to package MP3 or OGG versions of the music if using the MIDIs with the proper soundfont works just fine. Saves a LOT of space.

JohnnyTheWolf said:

Sounds good. But speaking of super secret rewards, what do you plan to do for Hectic?

Right now, once you open the 3 key gates, you are rewarded with a Megasphere and two cell packs. Some early cells and a full health/armor restore. Since the two side traps are a blue armor and Soulsphere, it seems logical to give the player what they would get from the death traps (which is 200 health/armor).

The original of course gives you the Features menu, but in G/ZDoom such a menu locked behind a level completion is irrelevant given the fact that you can already use any and all Features menu style cheats with the exception of EX's wireframe mode. I don't think such an option is possible in GZDoom but I could be wrong. Maybe Graf can confirm?

As far as the features menu goes, I am adding a features menu that can do most of the stuff the original, Absolution's, and EX's can do. Just to really have it all.

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Danfun64 said:

Will there be multiplayer support?

I am placing Player 1-4 starts on all maps. I most likely won't test MP since it's designed for SP but everything should work online. I am trying to write the scripts are with multiple possible players in mind.

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MinerOfWorlds said:

Will there be death-match?

At this time, I have no plans to support deathmatch mode. If there is any kind of demand for it later I can see about adding some DM maps like what BD64 did in its version 2. For now, the focus is entirely on single player.

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Graf Zahl said:

If you need anything on the engine side, I'd be happy to help, because this is something I really would like to see done in the best way possible.

Suggestion: support for reading extra fields in UDMF to determine lighting properties in a way similar to Doom 64. A proper port of Doom 64 to GZDoom will not occur without either this or an extraordinary amount of futzing with GLDEFS.

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If co-op or deathmatch are ever supported (and I hope that they will be at some point, though single player should be the priority until the maps are done), there ought to be additional monsters, ammo and weapons just like Doom 1/2 did in multiplayer modes.

I feel like only Doom 64's original content should be in the main package, with the additional levels as PWADs. Also, the main package should be a standalone IWAD rather than as a PWAD for Doom 2 or anything like that.

@Graf, perhaps there could be a ticrate option in GAMEINFO? I feel like setting the ticrate to 30 instead of 35 would make actor timing and such not only easier (no adjustments necessary), but better looking as shorter state durations wouldn't jumble around as a result of trying to compensate for the different ticrate.

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Blastfrog said:

the main package should be a standalone IWAD rather than as a PWAD for Doom 2 or anything like that.


You can't give people doom 64 for free isn't that why doom 64 ex needs the rom?

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MinerOfWorlds said:

You can't give people doom 64 for free isn't that why doom 64 ex needs the rom?

How did you take "make it an IWAD" to mean "distribute it as-is for free without a convertor"? I said nothing of the sort, work on your reading comprehension.

That being said, if some kind of WADGen type tool could be made specifically for this project, I'm all in support of that. I realize that a simple diff wouldn't be ideal, since everything is being edited by hand in completely different formats. Perhaps distribute Retribution as an encrypted file, and use specific segments of the Doom 64 ROM as the decryption key.

Seeing as Brutal Doom 64 was acknowledged positively by id, and that the Absolution TC was never under legal scrutiny even before Midway went under, I don't think that there's much risk in this project. As long as some kind of effort is made to require the original ROM to play it, I'd say that's more than enough to cover everyone's asses in practice.

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Blastfrog said:

How did you take "make it an IWAD" to mean "distribute it as-is for free without a convertor"? I said nothing of the sort, work on your reading comprehension.


An iwad has all of the games data so i thought you meant it should be free and not use any of the doom iwads but if it needs the doom 2 iwad why not make it a pwad?

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MinerOfWorlds said:

An iwad has all of the games data so i thought you meant it should be free and not use any of the doom iwads but if it needs the doom 2 iwad why not make it a pwad?

Doom 2 is a totally different game than Doom 64, there isn't a single shared asset. Given that, why should it ever be a PWAD for Doom 2? I really don't think you understand anything I'm saying.

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Fisk said:

Suggestion: support for reading extra fields in UDMF to determine lighting properties in a way similar to Doom 64. A proper port of Doom 64 to GZDoom will not occur without either this or an extraordinary amount of futzing with GLDEFS.

I've also wondered if such were possible in UDMF. Given that UDMF can change brightness levels of the floor and ceiling separately without affecting thing or wall brightness, it seems it could theoretically be possible. Then again, I know hardly nothing of engine mechanics, so I could be talking out of my ass here.

Blastfrog said:

I feel like only Doom 64's original content should be in the main package, with the additional levels as PWADs.

That is most likely what I will do. The main game will be a single file, and then any additional content will be its own extra file you can load after the main file, and will automatically add new episodes to the list.

Blastfrog said:

That being said, if some kind of WADGen type tool could be made specifically for this project, I'm all in support of that. I realize that a simple diff wouldn't be ideal, since everything is being edited by hand in completely different formats. Perhaps distribute Retribution as an encrypted file, and use specific segments of the Doom 64 ROM as the decryption key.

So are you suggesting that players be required to have the Doom 64 ROM on their system to be able to play this file? Then, upon running some custom tool, it searches for the ROM and uses that to then decrypt the mod's file? Good idea in theory, but in practice I don't think that's a good idea. EDIT: And someone could just upload a decrypted version of the mod...

Absolution requires DOOM2.WAD, and BD64/GZDoom64 require an IWAD as well. I think the simplest approach is to just require DOOM2.WAD as well. I'm getting a bad vibe from encrypting this file and requiring the ROM, then people will probably just say "well I can play BD64 without any kind of extra tools." I don't want users to need extra software to be able to run a Doom 2 mod.

At the end of the day, this project IS a Doom 2 mod no matter how much I change. The base is Doom 2 at its core. The mod works though replacement and inheritance.

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Nevander said:

EDIT: And someone could just upload a decrypted version of the mod...

Absolution requires DOOM2.WAD, and BD64/GZDoom64 require an IWAD as well. I think the simplest approach is to just require DOOM2.WAD as well. I'm getting a bad vibe from encrypting this file and requiring the ROM, then people will probably just say "well I can play BD64 without any kind of extra tools." I don't want users to need extra software to be able to run a Doom 2 mod.

Very good points, disregard my suggestion about "unlocking" the content by using the real Doom 64 as an unlocking mechanism.

Nevander said:

At the end of the day, this project IS a Doom 2 mod no matter how much I change. The base is Doom 2 at its core. The mod works though replacement and inheritance.

Well, technically you can still use those code definitions to inherit from without using DOOM2.WAD in any form.

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Blastfrog said:

Doom 2 is a totally different game than Doom 64, there isn't a single shared asset. Given that, why should it ever be a PWAD for Doom 2? I really don't think you understand anything I'm saying.


I don't know a lot about pwads but i know you can run a iwad with out anything else so it's a full game not a add-on so then it's ether doom 64 for free or you have to pay for it unless i misunderstand what your saying.

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Nevander said:

There is one issue that I've been struggling with. It's not so much on the engine side of things, more-so the sound side of things. There seems to be an issue where if you play a particular sound, like an item pickup, and then play it again after a specific amount of time, there will be an audible "pop" sound.


I can't say more without having seen the sound file, but such 'popping' effects normally happen when a sound doesn't start or end with 0-amplitude.

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