Doom 64 is NOT Doom (DEBUNKED)

[Maes]

hex11 said:

But that one also ripped off prior ones.

As has pretty much every game/movie/book/piece of art/artifact of human creativity in history.

What ultimately sets the boundary between something that's forgotten and something that makes history books/halls of fame, is, what else, marketing, and coming at the right time.

GORILLAS.BAS was nothing more than something that only MS-DOS nerds could obsess over back in the day, and to be fair, none of those "Artillery" games were fun to play with typical home computer or console controls.

Worms managed to get a good twist by adding some gameplay depth to the genre (still, aiming was a PITA), but it wasn't until everybody had touchscreens that something like Angry Birds could really shine. So much for that Flash game Angry Birds supposed to be a specific ripoff of...uh what was its name again? ;-)

BTW, did you know there's a desktop/Windows version of Angry Birds? No? No wonder.

[Foebane72]

roadworx said:

yes, it is. meaning that, just because half-life has a similar story, doesn't mean it's a rip-off. i mean, sure, it took inspiration from doom, but so didn't every other FPS in the 90s.

Yeah, you're right. I wish I hadn't said all that, as it's already obvious to the casual observer. I guess I was just ranting.

[Maes]

C'mon, we all know all FPSs that came after Doom are nothing but Doom-clones ;-) And now excuse me while I download by Official Doom FAQ v6.666 from my local BBS.

[Voros]

Maes said:

Worms managed to get a good twist by adding some gameplay depth to the genre (still, aiming was a PITA), but it wasn't until everybody had touchscreens that something like Angry Birds could really shine. So much for that Flash game Angry Birds supposed to be a specific ripoff of...uh what was its name again? ;-)

I don't know about you, but I really enjoy playing Pocket Tanks. But it can be hard to properly aim without giving a few tries. Such games make me feel like I need a Phd in Maths just to become a total pro with it.

Maes said:

BTW, did you know there's a desktop/Windows version of Angry Birds? No? No wonder.

I know ive got em stashed away in my drawer ;-)

[Agentbromsnor]

Doom 64 is still ten times better than Doom 4.

[Koko Ricky]

Agentbromsnor said:

Doom 64 is still ten times better than Doom 4.

Mister, you're gonna have to elaborate. I'll paraphrase Carl Sagan on this one: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Now, I love Doom 64, and will argue that some of its Hell layouts are better than Doom 16's because they explore a larger variety of themes (cryptic libraries, temples, altars, dungeons, caverns, castles and overtly ritualistic/gothic structures), but Doom '16 just has so much sheer stuff going on. The weapon and enemy variety alone is astonishing and it has the most satisfying UAC layouts I've seen in any Doom game, period.

[roadworx]

Voros said:

I don't know about you, but I really enjoy playing Pocket Tanks.

aw, hell yeah, pocket tanks! that game is awesome. how many weapons were there? 240 or something?

[Sick Bow]

Foebane72 said:

Actually, I didn't say that, but other fans of Half-Life said that Doom 3 ripped off the opening sequence from Half-Life. I think that's what really pissed me off.

I've never heard a single person say that. They're not even remotely similar. Half-Life starts with a long train ride through the facility, interacting with scientists, putting on your suit, and performing an experiment which sets in motion the rest of the game. Doom 3 starts off with walking to Command HQ, getting orders, and walking to Mars Underground (?) to bring back a missing person, then all Hell breaks loose. Not even nearly the same thing. Anyone who said that is a jackass.

Foebane72 said:

What bothered me about Half-Life 2 was that in several places, I got stuck and the puzzles did not help. In fact, I once spent half an hour in an early stage of the game where you're in a drainage canal filled with crap and the Combine are shooting at you, and I was actually piling up barrels in an attempt to get to street level, I thought the game was THAT innovative. In fact, HL2 annoyed me generally because I saw the Gravity Gun and the general physics puzzles as a gimmick, and not really needed, but there they were. In fact, I never completed it until years later as a result. I certainly think HL2 is overrated.

Every bit of that paragraph made me die a little bit on the inside. The puzzles weren't very difficult, and you thinking a game was way more innovative than it actually was is hardly the games fault, and it's more of a compliment to the title than anything. The physics engine was phenomenal, and even sparked games based solely off Source's physics and mechanics (Garry's mod, anyone?). It directly tied into the gameplay in almost every encounter. The part you're describing is literally the first part of the game after the introduction, and is one of the easier parts of the game. Different strokes, I guess.

Agentbromsnor said:

Doom 64 is still ten times better than Doom 4.

I really don't understand this at all. Doom 4 received nearly universal acclaim, Doom 64 was awesome but was limited to the N64's platform, and I've personally seen it undergo a lot more criticism. One is a 2.5D semi-horror-themed FPS from the 90s, the other is a reboot of a series original from 2016. Apples to oranges, the only thing really tying them together IMO is the name "Doom" and some game elements.

[vinnie245]

GoatLord said:

Mister, you're gonna have to elaborate. I'll paraphrase Carl Sagan on this one: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Now, I love Doom 64, and will argue that some of its Hell layouts are better than Doom 16's because they explore a larger variety of themes (cryptic libraries, temples, altars, dungeons, caverns, castles and overtly ritualistic/gothic structures), but Doom '16 just has so much sheer stuff going on. The weapon and enemy variety alone is astonishing and it has the most satisfying UAC layouts I've seen in any Doom game, period.

That i can definitely agree on, while the new Doom is AWESOME i felt that the Hell levels were really kind of bland. Hell isn't even a real place and the devs could of done so much more with it and been more creative instead of just making Hell look like it does in most games.. (The yellowy sky certainly doesn't help either)

[Michael92]

Sick Bow said:

I've never heard a single person say that. They're not even remotely similar. Half-Life starts with a long train ride through the facility, interacting with scientists, putting on your suit, and performing an experiment which sets in motion the rest of the game. Doom 3 starts off with walking to Command HQ, getting orders, and walking to Mars Underground (?) to bring back a missing person, then all Hell breaks loose. Not even nearly the same thing. Anyone who said that is a jackass.

There is a certain similarity between both titles - in the beginning, you are walking through a complex unarmed and admiring some nice views meanwhile. The real action begins only after some time.

BTW, don't forget people that classic Doom is Gabe Newell's favorite game, a former worker of Microsoft. There was a huge craze in this company after the release of Doom.

[Agentbromsnor]

GoatLord said:

Mister, you're gonna have to elaborate. I'll paraphrase Carl Sagan on this one: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Now, I love Doom 64, and will argue that some of its Hell layouts are better than Doom 16's because they explore a larger variety of themes (cryptic libraries, temples, altars, dungeons, caverns, castles and overtly ritualistic/gothic structures), but Doom '16 just has so much sheer stuff going on. The weapon and enemy variety alone is astonishing and it has the most satisfying UAC layouts I've seen in any Doom game, period.

The sound-design, monster-designs, and overall level-designs are IMO vastly superior to their counter-parts in Doom 4. Doom 64 also didn't feature any gameplay gimmicks and kept the focus on what Doom is supposed to be all about; run and gun.

To top things off, I also truly hate the Mary Sue story-line in Doom 4. I don't see why you can't just play as a normal human marine who got sent to Mars. No, instead you are uber-macho man! You've been granted powers by the right hand of God himself, and you're also part vampire and can move worlds effortlessly! I mean, come on... It's so damn cringy. It's like looking into someone's OC on DeviantArt or something. I know you can argue that story doesn't matter in a game like Doom, but it does set the tone and that makes it hard to ignore.

[Sick Bow]

Agentbromsnor said:

To top things off, I also truly hate the Mary Sue story-line in Doom 4. I don't see why you can't just play as a normal human marine who got sent to Mars. No, instead you are uber-macho man! You've been granted powers by the right hand of God himself, and you're also part vampire and can move worlds effortlessly! I mean, come on... It's so damn cringy. It's like looking into someone's OC on DeviantArt or something. I know you can argue that story doesn't matter in a game like Doom, but it does set the tone and that makes it hard to ignore.

That's literally describing Doom 1/2, and to an extent most of 3. You play as a badass. It's a power fantasy. I don't want to play as a regular marine in a Doom game, I'd rather do that in a Call of Duty game.

[Agentbromsnor]

Sick Bow said:

That's literally describing Doom 1/2, and to an extent most of 3. You play as a badass. It's a power fantasy. I don't want to play as a regular marine in a Doom game, I'd rather do that in a Call of Duty game.

No it's not? Did you even read the story to Doom? In Doom 1 and 2 you play as a regular marine. A strong and hardened one, but human nonetheless. You're not a Mary Sue like in Doom 4.

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Doom

[Koko Ricky]

He may be a "regular marine" in Doom 1/2, but given his inhuman speed and the fact that he's the only human on the planet capable of such badassery...he comes off as a bit superhuman.

[SaladBadger]

you know, despite doom4guy's overall capabilities, all things considered he's pretty vulnerable. Doesn't really take a whole lot to kill them, even though they can tear through demons with ease. This is something I also found interesting about Duke3D, since all things considered Duke can die very easily

[Agentbromsnor]

GoatLord said:

He may be a "regular marine" in Doom 1/2, but given his inhuman speed and the fact that he's the only human on the planet capable of such badassery...he comes off as a bit superhuman.

I would be completely okay with it if it was connected to power-ups like in regular Doom 1 and 2 (and 3 too, I think). Just the fact that the game already establishes him as the "ultra-badass alien marine" from the start is what bothers me.

InsanityBringer said:

you know, despite doom4guy's overall capabilities, all things considered he's pretty vulnerable. Doesn't really take a whole lot to kill them, even though they can tear through demons with ease. This is something I also found interesting about Duke3D, since all things considered Duke can die very easily

To be fair: Duke doesn't wear any sort of armour in-game. The Doom marine at least has his helmet and armour.

[Arctangent]

Agentbromsnor said:

Doom 64 also didn't feature any gameplay gimmicks and kept the focus on what Doom is supposed to be all about; run and gun.

Yes, I am quite sure there was never a moment in Doom, Doom 2, or Doom 64 where you were stumbling all around the levels looking for something hidden for the sake of making sure you didn't have to run into the next fight with only 16 health and 5 shells.

[Sick Bow]

Duke has armor. You pick up armor and you neglect a percentage of damage after doing so. It's a power fantasy to play as any of these characters, D16 just had the tech to make it more apparent to players.

[mrthejoshmon]

Agentbromsnor said:

To top things off, I also truly hate the Mary Sue story-line in Doom 4. I don't see why you can't just play as a normal human marine who got sent to Mars. No, instead you are uber-macho man! You've been granted powers by the right hand of God himself, and you're also part vampire and can move worlds effortlessly! I mean, come on... It's so damn cringy. It's like looking into someone's OC on DeviantArt or something. I know you can argue that story doesn't matter in a game like Doom, but it does set the tone and that makes it hard to ignore.

I'm sure that if you find this cringe then your face would actually fucking melt to the storyline of almost 90% of all games ever.

[Michael92]

Even if the power fantasy applies to classic Doom, including D64, I'm very immersed in this game when navigating through non-linear maps - I feel I'm the Doomguy!

InsanityBringer said:

[...]doom4guy[...]

I don't know about you guys, but this name sounds better than Doom Slayer.

[Voros]

Michael92 said:

I don't know about you guys, but this name sounds better than Doom Slayer.

Doomslayer is the Praetor Suit guy who is pissed off and rips and tears the demon with his own hand when he gets the chance.

Doom4guy is the Call of Doom guy who has a strange watch on his wrist, had his blood taken from a strange machine, wore an military like outfit.

[Maes]

Agentbromsnor said:

To be fair: Duke doesn't wear any sort of armour in-game. The Doom marine at least has his helmet and armour.

But The Duke has got Balls Of Steel (TM).

[MTF Sergeant]

Voros said:

With the added bonus of a dark and moody atmophere that goes so well with the ambience introduced in Doom 64.

The ambience surely makes it a bit terrifying and the monsters were nicely designed as well. Perhaps of course it's the 64th Doom game I think😂.

[Koko Ricky]

Doom 64 has a sense of horror that has not been equaled. I really hope id realizes that it adds a lot of to the immersion factor to give the overall tone a coat of heebie jeebies.

[jazzmaster9]

Agentbromsnor said:

No it's not? Did you even read the story to Doom? In Doom 1 and 2 you play as a regular marine. A strong and hardened one, but human nonetheless. You're not a Mary Sue like in Doom 4.

http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom

A regular marine.. who runs as fast as a bike, carry 8 weapons at a time and Can survive sheer drops. The Doom 1 guys is even more OP than Doom 4 guys. And theres nothing wrong with Mary Sue characters unless your one of those snobby "High Art" story type of people, they have their place.

[hex11]

It sounds impressive until you find out doomguy is really Roger Wilco's cousin.
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/67332-why-is-doomguy-so-fast-and-strong/

[Megalyth]

This thread has been in active rotation for a month and a half. The conversations within have evolved far beyond the scope of the original topic, and have etched a serpentine path of discovery through the timeless annals of DoomWorld lore.

And I still get a good laugh from the title every time I see it. Not Doom indeed.

Carry on.

[Deleted_Account]

So Doom is NOT Half-Life 64? I'm glad that was cleared up.

[roadworx]

jazzmaster9 said:

A regular marine.. who runs as fast as a bike, carry 8 weapons at a time and Can survive sheer drops.

and can fire both barrels of a double-barrel shotgun simultaneously. somehow.

Megalyth said:

This thread has been in active rotation for a month and a half. The conversations within have evolved far beyond the scope of the original topic, and have etched a serpentine path of discovery through the timeless annals of DoomWorld lore.

And I still get a good laugh from the title every time I see it. Not Doom indeed.

Carry on.

this thread will eventually die off in 2023, but not before covering doomguy's armor, doomguy's secret identity, religion, politics, the holocaust, and bill clinton's left testicle.

[Voros]

roadworx said:

and can fire both barrels of a double-barrel shotgun simultaneously. somehow.

That is possible, as there are two triggers for each barrels. Doomguy fires both by pulling both triggers at once.

The recoil is supposed to be massive though.