Doom II: List of all hard wads

[Spectre01]

HR is also not as Pistol Start friendly on a first playthrough as more recent hard wads. Often maps require routing, grinding Barons with a Shotgun or just being a pain in the ass. I guess back in the day there was more emphasis on replaying maps more than once.

[T-Rex]

rileymartin said:

HR is also not as Pistol Start friendly on a first playthrough as more recent hard wads. Often maps require routing, grinding Barons with a Shotgun or just being a pain in the ass. I guess back in the day there was more emphasis on replaying maps more than once.

HR had more emphasis on speedrunning, given Yonatan Donner was a very prolific speedrunner who did such recordings for many Doom wads, and he even spearheaded the Quake Done Quick demos.

[baja blast rd.]

I think it might help to define what difficulty is, in relation to the 1-5 scale.

For example, nochance.wad; most people are simply not beating this on UV without saves. At all. No chance (heh). But it's a 2? Most people are likewise not beating any of the longer maps in CS2 without saves. It's a 1! It's not really a matter of diligence and effort here; for most people beating CS2 maps will entail learning how to play slaughtermaps from the ground up and a significant improvement in their skill level, to the point where they aren't really the same player.

And then we have Valiant and AA, and I'd wager that most people will be able to beat even the hardest maps on UV with some study and practice and patience, without radically improving their skill level, provided they have the disposition for that sort of thing in the first place.

So the first question is, what is a "1"? I think a 1 should be at that point where maps might prove difficult to survive without foreknowledge but are eminently doable by most people without saves, given foreknowledge and maybe a bit of practice. Valiant and AA belong here, I believe.

How about a "2"? Okay, at this point, maps should probably be out of one-shot reach of most people without a reasonable investment into research and practice, and even a top-tier player should find these maps somewhat challenging, but ultimately not so difficult to get an exit on. SoD/Resurgence are good examples.

A "3"? Yeah, these maps are just completely out of one-shot reach for most people, and even a top-tier player is going to want to practice these, sometimes even thoroughly, before attempting to secure an exit without saves. Much of Ribbiks's hardest released stuff belongs here. Italo Doom belongs here -- certainly no higher -- simply because the maps are so damn short.

A "4"? Okay, serious challenges only. Out of one-shot reach for a player like me (decent in actuality, not in the delusional way most people think they are decent :P, but absolutely and indisputably NOT top-tier) unless there is a serious investment of effort, with thorough research and plenty of practice. Often a big test of endurance or lateral thinking. Some of D-D's insane stuff (nochance).

A "5"? These maps should be out of reach or very damn close to it for even the top players. After all the category is "nearly impossible" :P. Okupluk's wad for sure. I'd be surprised if a top-tier player can produce a non-segmented demo for this. Some of the harder Chillax maps.

I don't think this is perfect, but I feel it makes sense. I think it's utterly futile to measure difficulty if you assume that the player is saving the game. Map length is a very relevant factor in assessing difficulty. Most people will eventually be able to truck their way through anything that way, but it's sometimes quite hard to distinguish between "1" and "2" and "2" and "3" if you allow for saves.

Edited May 7, 2018 by rdwpa

[rehelekretep]

CrazyDoomguy said:

Every can change username (pls dont fill admin many jobs ^^)

Here is discussion:

hey probably my fault for shortening its full title; i was referring to the difficulty of Ancient Aliens vs Hell Revealed. Ancient Aliens is way easier than HR

[Spectre01]

If we're judging from a speedrunning/no-save perspective then longer maps will naturally be harder due to more chances to screw up before exiting. That would also make platforming over inescapable pits inflate difficulty since there's a high chance for the player to fall off without practice. Something like Sunder has long maps with frequent possibilities of falling to your death, but the individual encounters are no more difficult from a mechanical perspective than the harder stuff in Ancient Aliens or Valiant. I'm assuming the average player, and streamers that casually play harder wads, tends to occasionally save between fights and won't be trying to one-shot the longer Combat Shock maps anyway.

[Paul977]

No chance and Disturbia are definitly at least 3 both are harder then Deus Vault

[baja blast rd.]

On 12/29/2016 at 7:53 PM, rileymartin said:

If we're judging from a speedrunning/no-save perspective then longer maps will naturally be harder due to more chances to screw up before exiting. That would also make platforming over inescapable pits inflate difficulty since there's a high chance for the player to fall off without practice. Something like Sunder has long maps with frequent possibilities of falling to your death, but the individual encounters are no more difficult from a mechanical perspective than the harder stuff in Ancient Aliens or Valiant. I'm assuming the average player, and streamers that casually play harder wads, tends to occasionally save between fights and won't be trying to one-shot the longer Combat Shock maps anyway.

edit: bad

[dobu gabu maru]

rdwpa said:

I think it might help to define what difficulty is, in relation to the 1-5 scale.

I think Dime was the one that said the scale is kinda irrelevant if the maps aren't fun and I'd like to echo that. Like, for as difficult as Chillax and CrazyDoomguy's maps are, how many people actually sit down and play them? If I made one hundred connected 64x128 rooms with a shotgun and AV in each one and force the player to pain chance the AV each time in order to survive, that earns a "5" difficulty but it's total bullshit to play. The fact that the OP lists something as irredeemably despicable as "Tarakannik" as a fucking "4" means that this topic was doomed to be a joke; I think it's necessary to delineate which "highly difficult maps" are at least honest attempts at being "good hard maps"... though that will probably lead down a subjective rabbit hole with no unanimous consensus at the end.

Honestly, there probably needs to be some kinda prerequisite to being able to be measured, like at least 5 people need to have played it (and at least 1 no-save demo exists) because otherwise this difficulty metric is meaningless if it has no pragmatic application.

[baja blast rd.]

I agree.

[Killer5]

@dobu gabu maru's comment 'I think Dime was the one..'

I felt like this list was an objective list consisting of what are the most difficult wads. Whether or not someone enjoys playing them is irrelevant. I have found that many people like a lot of different gameplay types and obviously getting into the stupid hard stuff is going to mean adding wads with certain maps here which have gameplay elements a lot of people hate. Stuff like totg04 and Okuplok's untitled2.wad come to mind. I need only look at the reviews on idgames to see the reception of Toilet of the Gods for example but I love the shit out of that wad and I would dismiss the list entirely if it was omitted because it was considered 'not fun' by a majority of the community.

If people want to make a list of 'fun hard wads' then that will be completely subjective (as you already stated). I have found simply through testing harder wads that some stuff I loved other people have absolutely hated. Imo make a list of wads you think are good and just spread the word about them when people ask. And in actuality this list already gives you everything you need. If you have played a wad on this list then give a description of the type of gameplay present and add that description next to each wad in this list.

Imo idgames reviews are unreliable as the person making the inquiry on the wad might be one of the special people like myself who enjoy mapsets like Valiant and Vanguard to grindy-er stuff like Holy Hell and Sunder.

[Paul977]

Dobu is right and CrazyDoomguy seems do not understand this. If you make hard maps without provide any form of fun to the player basically none will play your maps.
For me, all the difficult maps even extreme difficult must be completable without saves and, obviously, without TAS.

[CrazyDoomguy]

dobu gabu maru said:

I think Dime was the one that said the scale is kinda irrelevant if the maps aren't fun and I'd like to echo that. Like, for as difficult as Chillax and CrazyDoomguy's maps are, how many people actually sit down and play them? If I made one hundred connected 64x128 rooms with a shotgun and AV in each one and force the player to pain chance the AV each time in order to survive, that earns a "5" difficulty but it's total bullshit to play. The fact that the OP lists something as irredeemably despicable as "Tarakannik" as a fucking "4" means that this topic was doomed to be a joke; I think it's necessary to delineate which "highly difficult maps" are at least honest attempts at being "good hard maps"... though that will probably lead down a subjective rabbit hole with no unanimous consensus at the end.

Honestly, there probably needs to be some kinda prerequisite to being able to be measured, like at least 5 people need to have played it (and at least 1 no-save demo exists) because otherwise this difficulty metric is meaningless if it has no pragmatic application.

I knew that, if gameplay get more difficult, the fun and number of players fall down. Independently if this WAD have nice architecture, this dont save fun - For example Toilets of the Gods (look rating at idgames).
I never meet difficult map like challax with big fun... Besides exist some thrill-seeker fans, who like play challenge WADs (passable) and get some action.

List of fun exist, but of difficulty not. Sometimes appear threads and author ask something about new difficult maps.
So that because I planed collect all good looks unknown/forgotten difficult WADs into a list. Some asked add difficulty rating and I did it.

dobu gabu maru said:

The fact that the OP lists something as irredeemably despicable as "Tarakannik" as a fucking "4" means that this topic was doomed to be a joke;

Did you not like Tarakannik? :)

[CrazyDoomguy]

Paul977 said:

Dobu is right and CrazyDoomguy seems do not understand this. If you make hard maps without provide any form of fun to the player basically none will play your maps.
For me, all the difficult maps even extreme difficult must be completable without saves and, obviously, without TAS.

Every player use "Save and Load" and it is a part of game!!! Who can pass without this, then this map is not extreme (If this WAD removed "save and load", then that can I call hard). If you dont use these function, its same who say on HR "I dont take shotgun, I will pass only with pistol"... But if need use save every 10 sec, then I can understand.

[CrazyDoomguy]

Killer5 said:

Imo idgames reviews are unreliable as the person making the inquiry on the wad might be one of the special people like myself who enjoy mapsets like Valiant and Vanguard to grindy-er stuff like Holy Hell and Sunder.

I gave rating on mine WAD per handy 10 turns 5 stars. But after days this site will actualize and mine rating is dissapear. I think, these ratings are fair.

[Killer5]

@CrazyDoomguy
My comment was with regards to the fact that I am a person that likes niche gameplay mapsets. I can't base my decision on whether or not I am going to play something based on the number of stars a wad has on idgames because people vote wads down based on their gameplay preferences (from what I have seen).

[Memfis]

dobu gabu maru said:

Like, for as difficult as Chillax and CrazyDoomguy's maps are, how many people actually sit down and play them?

Chillax has a huuuge following in Zandronum. It has many specialists and gets tons of players.

[baja blast rd.]

I think Dobu meant more to exclude trollmaps and various concept nonsense maps (4 cybers in a tiny room with no exit!!) that can be made arbitrarily difficult, for example ztkt's silly nonsense:



Impossible map!!!



Yes, those are 200,000+ cybers all Siamesed together.

I missed that particular line though.

One thing that has become clear to me lately is that the maps that most people like are kind of easy. Most people prefer the veneer of challenge to true challenge, danger and panic to true lethality. I like that stuff too, but yeah, most people will consider maps that are too hard for them to be unfair or luck-based or whatever else, even when players more skilled than them might find these maps really fun. So, yeah, vox populi is a shaky way to distinguish between bad trollmaps and well-designed niche appeal maps.

[dobu gabu maru]

Memfis said:

Chillax has a huuuge following in Zandronum. It has many specialists and gets tons of players.

Perhaps I should specify that I meant playing these maps in mod-less single player, as they naturally lose a lot of their ludicrousness when there's multiple people running around with a BFG. I typed "Chillax Doom" into youtube and found multiple pages of Zandronum, TAS and mod playthroughs (Russian Overkill, Brother in Arms, etc), clearly showing that there's a famine of players actually playing it "seriously" (I did find two players, but they've only done a handful of maps). This isn't to say "it's wrong to play/enjoy these wads in multiplayer/with mods", but rather to stress "they're only fun if they're played in multiplayer/with mods", which is why I feel ranking them against serious single player entries is a dumb idea.

I suppose it's useful to have a list of difficult wads if you're looking for maps with a similar difficulty to play, it's just that there's no way to currently filter out bullshit like rdwpa pointed out, which is my main gripe. Whether or not Chillax falls into that category of "bullshit" is a topic of conversation for another day, I suppose.

rdwpa said:

One thing that has become clear to me lately is that the maps that most people like are kind of easy.

A minor nitpick, but you mean "kind of easy to you". I think some of you guys forget that most gamers would probably consider Ultimate Doom/Doom 2 on UV "tough" even with saves/continuous play, even though to our community they're among the easiest wads you can play. There is no illusionary "perceived" danger in Doom—getting hit by a stray rev/cyber rocket can kill you in the heat of battle, unless you have an acute awareness of your surroundings, something that only comes with years of experience or a rare reaction time. I reasonably believe I'm above average at this game but I come nowhere close to playing as well as some of you guys; when you're part of the 0.01%, it's not "everyone else is so poor" as much as "you are filthy fuckin' rich".

(Edit #2: plz don't revenge-quote this post when I end up saying a mapset is too easy :) )

[CrazyDoomguy]

dobu gabu maru said:

I suppose it's useful to have a list of difficult wads if you're looking for maps with a similar difficulty to play, it's just that there's no way to currently filter out bullshit like rdwpa pointed out, which is my main gripe. Whether or not Chillax falls into that category of "bullshit" is a topic of conversation for another day, I suppose.

I wrote a request on first page last three days "Please, dont recomendate me a troll or boring looking WADs.".
Before maps going into list, I search on first walktrought video. If no video to find, I look this WAD on Doom Builder fast (architecture, rooms, monsters etc).
I clean troll and boring looking WAD. For example user Preliatus recomendated me a troll WAD "WOW" and I didnt take this into list. Another I found at searching difficult WAD "Nostril Caverns" and wanted check. I saw a walktrought and after that removed from list.

[dobu gabu maru]

CrazyDoomguy said:

Another I found at searching difficult WAD "Nostril Caverns" and wanted check. I saw a walktrought and after that removed from list.

Hold up—you removed Nostril Caverns but kept the Nuts series on your list? Because the former is more "boring"?

[CrazyDoomguy]

dobu gabu maru said:

Hold up—you removed Nostril Caverns but kept the Nuts series on your list? Because the former is more "boring"?

Its popular WAD and on this you concetrate survive and watching battle. Some fun are to find. On nostril is just same room and nothing news. You open next room, next, next... finally same room but with other monsters... also no interesting action.

Ok now I need make party at new year :)

[Ancalagon]

Now giving a 5 to okumap, map confirmed doable :^)

[Ribbiks]

one of the qualities I really appreciate about ToD maps is that they often test your consistency. there's a big difference in being able to beat something once (e.g. with saves, or getting lucky rng) and being able to reliably beat it many times even when doom AI behaves unfavorably, and personally the latter is more impressive as a measure of doom "skill", or whatever. gggmork maps were also very nice in this way (I recall him describing one of his maps as a "battle against doom rng" or something to that effect, where unpredictable mixed hordes on monsters in complicated interwoven layouts required the player to make constant split-second decisions regarding movement, target priorities, etc).

I can't speak to nostril caverns specifically, as I haven't played the map in quite some time, but I'm very sympathetic to that type of design in general (check out tom19, or his slaughterfest submissions!). I recall Danne had designed a big AV setup for a snowy sunlust map with a similar philosophy (now summer69... map... 5?), but it was more or less universally hated, so not many players are drinking the same kool-aid, it seems :p

[baja blast rd.]

gggmork maps were also very nice in this way (I recall him describing one of his maps as a "battle against doom rng" or something to that effect, where unpredictable mixed hordes on monsters in complicated interwoven layouts required the player to make constant split-second decisions regarding movement, target priorities, etc).

darkwave24.wad is pretty great that way, too; basically no lock-ins until the very final area, but there often isn't a real truly safe space due to how monsters path around. You can chill for like 20 seconds somewhere, and then a bunch of revs or one of those obnoxious PEs will eventually find you and there won't be any safe spots for a while.

Also, how would you rate various things (maybe your own maps too) on the YAQSXW Scale of Difficulty?

I recall Danne had designed a big AV setup for a snowy sunlust map with a similar philosophy (now summer69... map... 5?), but it was more or less universally hated, so not many players are drinking the same kool-aid, it seems :p

Are there any demos of this lying around? I would like to see that tackled by someone with patience. :D

[Ribbiks]

rdwpa said:

darkwave24.wad is pretty great that way, too; basically no lock-ins until the very final area, but there often isn't a real truly safe space due to how monsters path around. You can chill for like 20 seconds somewhere, and then a bunch of revs or one of those obnoxious PEs will eventually find you and there won't be any safe spots for a while.

yah, post-SoD darkwave maps are possibly a good example as well. though sometimes his recent fetish for making overly huge spaces doesn't lend itself to gameplay I find personally enjoyable. Darkwave32 was fantastic though, I intend to shamelessly steal ("pay homage") to the teleporter fight one of these days.

Also, how would you rate various things (maybe your own maps too) on the YAQSXW Scale of Difficulty?

Eh idk, I'm not big into numbers for stuff like that. Your post up there seems reasonable enough, so I'm fine with those numbers :D

Are there any demos of this lying around? I would like to see that tackled by someone with patience. :D

we had streamed our playthroughs to eachother during testing, so unfortunately no .lmps are laying around. I think you can rush into that area rather quickly (the other wings of the map offer optional supplies intended to make the finale easier, iirc), so maybe I can whip up a partial demo that gets to that room and just illustrates the intended strat.

[Dime]

Well not the most difficult map in all of doom one of my favs is sunlust map 29. The setups are so interesting and unique without having much horde management outside of the final encounter. Ya it took some time to beat but it is such a work of art i didnt care. Now take map 7 of stardate20x7. Same mapper, looked cool but fuck i hated every second of the gameplay.

And i think sunder should be classified as 2-3. Would grinder and obsidian nightmare really fit as a 2?

[Ribbiks]

Dime said:

Now take map 7 of stardate20x7. Same mapper, looked cool but fuck i hated every second of the gameplay.

has received some significant changes, give it a try again whenever I get around to releasing that (perhaps in 20x7!!). Though if you hated the puzzle side-adventures you'll probably still hate it :p

[CrazyDoomguy]

Sunder moved on 3, Okuplok on 5

Found and added some WADs:

1. Crusher Experiment
2. Revenant Battlefield
3. Claustrophobia 1024
4. Ave Exitium
5. Elysion
6. Sacrosanct Shithole (by dobu)
7. Sweet Dream, Suitpee (by dobu)
8. Jq4 (by ribbiks)
9. Summer96
10. Tom19

I didnt found Darkwave WAD... level 32 looks nice :)

[dew]

masterjumps is much harder than most of the stuff on this list, just sayin'.

[Cynical]

In the "single map" category, Impure Offering and Golachab.

I would say both are probably difficulty 2.

As for stuff that's already on the list and unranked, Elysion is probably a 3.

Alien Vendetta, Ancient Aliens, Valiant, and Unholy Realms should all be 1s on this scale.

Resurgence might should be a 2. Tough call; it's tougher than any of the other "2"s, but easier than any of the "3"s.

Nochance should be at least a 4. That map is insane. EDIT: And the Combat Shocks should be 3s at least, WTF.