Noclip Documentary: DOOM Resurrected

[Linguica]

Touchdown said:

I disagree with a 100% of things they say in this video. What they're describing is absolutely, totally not what DOOM is to me. Everything that they're giggling about how awesome it is, I fucking hate.

Killing lots of demons with a tongue in cheek irreverence?

[MusicallyInspired]

Touchdown said:

I disagree with a 100% of things they say in this video. What they're describing is absolutely, totally not what DOOM is to me. Everything that they're giggling about how awesome it is, I fucking hate.

It's ambiguous in the original games whether they're taking themselves seriously or are entirely self-aware. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to ask the original id guys themselves. Everyone obviously took away something different from the originals.

Personally, I totally looked at the originals as self-aware and tongue-in-cheek. So, to me, Doom 4 is 100% authentic to the original tone. Actually, I take back what I said before. It's not ambiguous at all. I mean it was a cartoon for crying out loud. They were just seeing how gross they could be and how ridiculous they could make it. Just read the story blurbs in between episodes. You can't take that seriously.

[40oz]

Touchdown said:

that's the problem.
I'll never agree
not supposed to be
fucking stupid.
I am disappointed
I disagree
I fucking hate.

I wonder what Touchdowns next post is going to sound like.

[MusicallyInspired]

From part two:
"You're either on board with us or you're not."

I guess he's not.

[TAPETRVE]

Probably the same kind of kid who thinks Cannibal Corpse lyrics are serious.

[Touchdown]

I like it how you all conveniently forget everything else I said about the game.

[MusicallyInspired]

It's either one or the other, man. You can't appreciate what they did and hate and badmouth it at the same time.

[DooM_RO]

For me Doom has always been a cartoon with a dash of seriousness.

I mean Underhalls has friendly elevator music for crying out loud.

[Touchdown]

MusicallyInspired said:

It's either one or the other, man. You can't appreciate what they did and hate and badmouth it at the same time.

Nope. I can absolutely love the gameplay and dislike the atmosphere. I can absolutely appreciate the overall picture and still be disappointed in one of its aspects. I don't need to hate everything about it just because it's not precisely what I wanted. Fair enough?

[MusicallyInspired]

Then how am I "conveniently forgetting" everything else you've said about the game? I was only talking about the atmosphere.

[40oz]

Touchdown said:

I like it how you all conveniently forget everything else I said about the game.

There's nothing to forget, its explicitly documented in this thread.

[ChickenOrBeef]

I agree that the original Doom definitely had a non-serious and somewhat self-aware edge to it, but obviously Doom PSX, Doom 64, and Doom 3 all emphasized the darker side of Doom. So I understand Touchdown's disappointment when looking at the series as a whole, but id Software said Doom 1/2 was the primary inspiration, so DOOM's tone makes sense.

With all that said, the original Doom also had a nihilistic edge to it that isn't really present in the new DOOM. The original game joked about how fucked you are, while the new game jokes about how fucked the demons are.

But with THAT said, I think id Software intentionally changed that around.

[DMPhobos]

MusicallyInspired said:

It's ambiguous in the original games whether they're taking themselves seriously or are entirely self-aware. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to ask the original id guys themselves. Everyone obviously took away something different from the originals.

Ambiguous?, need i say what BFG stands for?, also the original game ended with this screen...

As for if this was their intention or not, when the game was being developed, it was made with a "Yeah, let's fucking do this!" attitude. Back then the id crew was young, talented and had few shit's to give, Tom Hall did tried to make a more complex and serious game, but the rest of id software disregarded most his ideas

The only game that took itself dead serious was Doom 3. In many ways the slower pace of the game fits it's tone

[MusicallyInspired]

Read the rest of that same post. I went on to retract that statement.

All I meant to say with that original thought was that there was never much attention given to story, storytelling, or context to anything beyond the story blurbs in between episodes and levels. They didn't have characters and exposition in the actual gameplay of the game.

[Touchdown]

ChickenOrBeef said:

I agree that the original Doom definitely had a non-serious and somewhat self-aware edge to it, but obviously Doom PSX, Doom 64, and Doom 3 all emphasized the darker side of Doom. So I understand Touchdown's disappointment when looking at the series as a whole, but id Software said Doom 1/2 was the primary inspiration, so DOOM's tone makes sense.

With all that said, the original Doom also had a nihilistic edge to it that isn't really present in the new DOOM. The original game joked about how fucked you are, while the new game jokes about how fucked the demons are.

But with THAT said, I think id Software intentionally changed that around.

It goes back to what I said somewhere else, that DOOM is not only about badassery. Even if we forget the general tone, there still isn't anything like the Phobos Lab or Monster Condo in DOOM4. It never loosens up the "metal and badassery, non-stop action, you're a god of destruction" vibe. I thought that there should be something intimidating about Hell instead of it being just a punching bag for your boundless awesomeness.

They've pulled the franchise completely towards atmosphere in DOOM3 and then right to the opposite side of the spectrum with DOOM4. I'd be nice for DOOM5 to be something in the middle... Except that based on their comments in the latest Noclip video it seems like, if anything, they'll make it even more ridiculous because they don't seem to think any kind of seriousness or oppressiveness has its place in DOOM. This is the big thing that irked me about it.

[DMPhobos]

MusicallyInspired said:

All I meant to say with that original thought was that there was never much attention given to story, storytelling, or context to anything beyond the story blurbs in between episodes and levels. They didn't have characters and exposition in the actual gameplay of the game.

That's quite true, Doom was always gameplay first, everything else later

[mammajamma]

Touchdown said:

It goes back to what I said somewhere else, that DOOM is not only about badassery. Even if we forget the general tone, there still isn't anything like the Phobos Lab or Monster Condo in DOOM4. It never loosens up the "metal and badassery, non-stop action, you're a god of destruction" vibe. I thought that there should be something intimidating about Hell instead of it being just a punching bag for your boundless awesomeness.

They've pulled the franchise completely towards atmosphere in DOOM3 and then right to the opposite side of the spectrum with DOOM4. I'd be nice for DOOM5 to be something in the middle... Except that based on their comments in the latest Noclip video it seems like, if anything, they'll make it even more ridiculous because they don't seem to think any kind of seriousness or oppressiveness has its place in DOOM. This is the big thing that irked me about it.

If you want to blame anybody for D44M's general tone, blame the Doom community itself. Most people in it have interpreted Doomguy as a total badass demonslayer that gives no fucks about anything else, not to mention that gameplay-wise I can think of way more wads that are about pure action than there are wads that try to evoke a spooky atmosphere.

I'd agree with you about a potential sequel should be a hybrid of action/atmosphere though.

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't think a hybrid or balance of any kind is possible. They said they were struggling with the story for the entire development and discovered that the best way to present it was to not.

I really enjoyed hell being the constant punching bag. There's enough games, movies, books, etc that portrays hell as this ominous, monstrous, threatening, and undefeatable obstacle. I like them being the whipped for once. It was totally empowering. Do I want that for another sequel? Maybe not....maybe not so overboard. However, I don't think it's possible to have that hybrid. I'm happy to be proven wrong....I think in the end Doom 4 would still be my favourite of the theoretical two, though.

[Bauul]

Touchdown said:

It goes back to what I said somewhere else, that DOOM is not only about badassery. Even if we forget the general tone, there still isn't anything like the Phobos Lab or Monster Condo in DOOM4. It never loosens up the "metal and badassery, non-stop action, you're a god of destruction" vibe. I thought that there should be something intimidating about Hell instead of it being just a punching bag for your boundless awesomeness.

They've pulled the franchise completely towards atmosphere in DOOM3 and then right to the opposite side of the spectrum with DOOM4. I'd be nice for DOOM5 to be something in the middle... Except that based on their comments in the latest Noclip video it seems like, if anything, they'll make it even more ridiculous because they don't seem to think any kind of seriousness or oppressiveness has its place in DOOM. This is the big thing that irked me about it.

I get where you're coming from. The original Doom's vibe could be best described as simply "metal as fuck". But whereas Doom seemed to draw tone from a wide variety of metal genres, Doom 2016 basically just ended up on Thrash. It lost some of the nihilistic oppressive atmosphere the first game(s) did. But I also think the original Dooms were surreal and simplistic enough that they could bounce between Barrels of Fun and Monster Condo without it seeming weird, but in a modern hi-fidelity title it'd just seem strange.

Also, on the other hand: I don't blame id. As the documentary explained, they tried to write a serious, less goofy story for years and just couldn't create something they were happy with. In this case, I'd take the self-aware fun of Doom 2016 over a badly executed more serious tone any day. At the end of the day, they're fallible creators like all of us, and not everything is a simple choice. Sometimes you just have to go with what you can actually make.

[mammajamma]

Bauul said:

But whereas Doom seemed to draw tone from a wide variety of metal genres, Doom 2016 basically just ended up on Thrash.

Given what albums Romero gave Prince to make the original Doom soundtrack with, Doom was probably meant to evoke a thrash metal mentality the whole time (e.g. Metallica, Slayer, S.O.D.) with some groove (Pantera) and grunge (Alice In Chains) thrown in, which was most likely in tune with the tastes of the average American metalhead in the early 90's.

[40oz]

20+ years after doom, everyone who plays it cleans out every room in seconds and sweeps up armies of monsters with the rocket launcher and supershotgun and smashes everything into clouds of pixelated gore. Slaughterfests, speedrunning, and brutal doom is at an all time high. That "atmosphere" you're referring to that Monster Condo and Phobos Lab evokes is all subjective interpretation. Show me a video of someone being spooked by those maps' dark oppressive ambience and I will show you three more videos of someone mercilessly plowing through the map with reckless abandon.

Were very lucky that Doom 2016 goes great lengths to complement the long term effects of Doom than to push any of dooms uninterrupting features of the game by subtracting from any of the fast, loud, ruthlessness that kept Doom from falling into obscurity after so long.

Perhaps your argument about Doom is more that it feels a little more "on rails" than you wanted it to be? I know there were times where I was a little bored of the "press button; do thing" where the thing in question was more or less flexing the doom guys muscles 100% of the time.

[doom_is_great]

MusicallyInspired said:

I really enjoyed hell being the constant punching bag. There's enough games, movies, books, etc that portrays hell as this ominous, monstrous, threatening, and undefeatable obstacle. I like them being the whipped for once. It was totally empowering. Do I want that for another sequel? Maybe not....maybe not so overboard. However, I don't think it's possible to have that hybrid. I'm happy to be proven wrong....I think in the end Doom 4 would still be my favourite of the theoretical two, though.

I wish that hell would have been interpreted that way in Doom 4. I always viewed hell that way in the originals: some undefeatable, oppressive, monstrous force that, no matter what you did, would eventually defeat you in the end. I guess I viewed it that way back then because when I was young, I was really bad at Doom and I died a lot.

Anyway, the name of the game is DOOM afterall. Not Demon Asskicker. The very name describes what, in my opinion, one should be feeling throughout the game: an overwhelming feeling and sense of doom because you are up against overwhelming odds. However, through sheer will and might coupled with massive firepower, you overcome the overwhelming odds and win.

Hopefully in Doom 5, Id will be able to strike a balance between the two. Afterall, if Doom 5 is set on earth, then it will have to have that tone because you are talking about all of earth being invaded and overwhelmed by a massive demonic force determined to exterminate humanity.

[DooM_RO]

Touchdown said:

It goes back to what I said somewhere else, that DOOM is not only about badassery. Even if we forget the general tone, there still isn't anything like the Phobos Lab or Monster Condo in DOOM4. It never loosens up the "metal and badassery, non-stop action, you're a god of destruction" vibe. I thought that there should be something intimidating about Hell instead of it being just a punching bag for your boundless awesomeness.

They've pulled the franchise completely towards atmosphere in DOOM3 and then right to the opposite side of the spectrum with DOOM4. I'd be nice for DOOM5 to be something in the middle... Except that based on their comments in the latest Noclip video it seems like, if anything, they'll make it even more ridiculous because they don't seem to think any kind of seriousness or oppressiveness has its place in DOOM. This is the big thing that irked me about it.

I disagree, Doom 2016 still has plenty of quiet moments in nearly every level.

[Quasar]

I think there's still more of that in the new Doom than it's getting credit for. I found the destroyed Argent Facility pretty creepy looking and atmospheric. It looked like Hell on Mars, quite literally.

Also as far as Hell being undefeatable, while the Doom Slayer certainly wrecked havoc on it for an untold amount of time, they *did* drop a ceiling on him, and made a pretty big come-back while he was trapped and not able to kill.

[DooM_RO]

Quasar said:

I think there's still more of that in the new Doom than it's getting credit for. I found the destroyed Argent Facility pretty creepy looking and atmospheric. It looked like Hell on Mars, quite literally.

Also as far as Hell being undefeatable, while the Doom Slayer certainly wrecked havoc on it for an untold amount of time, they *did* drop a ceiling on him, and made a pretty big come-back while he was trapped and not able to kill.

Yeah, Argent Facility and Foundry were the first levels that came to mind. The former in particular feels a lot like a modernization of classic E1 mapping.

If you are reading this Id, for the sequel make more levels like the Foundry and less like Lazarus.

[ArchangelOfHell]

Not a Lazarus fan? The new update contained tons of new updates from its designs. Cool video again its great to see Id as a bunch of guys like us, hahaha I bet there up on TDM.

[DooM_RO]

ArchangelOfHell said:

Not a Lazarus fan? The new update contained tons of new updates from its designs. Cool video again its great to see Id as a bunch of guys like us, hahaha I bet there up on TDM.

It's the most linear level in the game.

[LANEGRACABRA]

Marty and Hugo always go on about how cheesy and tongue-in-cheek the new DOOM is. I really appreciate it just because I NEVER EVER had a moment in the game where I thought "this is just DUMB". It worked out so well in this case.

[PizzaGuy]

Again, I'm really liking this documentary.
What's being described in the second part about how they approached the story to be tongue in cheek and self aware is very reminiscent of how the likes of Duke Nukem plays out its story.
Duke's little one liners and his OTT appearance and attitude completely downplay any seriousness that the story has and makes the game a lot more laid back and fun.
I think this take on the events of DOOM make it what it is ,its almost the flip side of what DOOM 3 was.
Though DOOM 2016 is much more subtle in its approach than Duke , but this also allows ease to create those darker moments when they are called upon.
its a very good balance.

[Gez]

Doom is tongue-in-cheek. E1's victory screen is all meta ("once you beat the big badasses you're supposed to win, aren't you? Where is your fat reward and ticket home? It's not supposed to end this way!"), you get messages like "a chainsaw! find some meat!", and some enemies look goofy. Sometimes it's definitely intentional (the revenant's kungfu punches). The manual/text file doesn't try to make it feel serious, both in the story ("help! something friggin' evil is coming") and in the descriptions ("dumb, tough, flies, on fire, nuff said"). And with Thy Flesh Consumed they brought the cheesy to 11, what with making the impaled bunny "Daisy, your pet rabbit" and coining up the term "gibbitude".


Also, remember how Doom got its name? ("'What do you have in there?' asks someone. 'Doom.' replied Cruise with a cocky grin. That, and the resulting carnage, was how I viewed us springing the game on the industry.") Doom isn't what the demons bring to mankind, Doom is what the player brings to the monsters. Doom is for players who have a cocky grin. Doom is for Demon AssKickers. Just look at the E3 victory text: "the loathsome spiderdemon [...] has had its ass kicked for all time."

One could say that the PSX/N64 versions have less badass metal MIDIs and more gloomy atmospheric oppressiveness. That they make you feel trapped in a dangerous world. Yeah, sure; but again the victory text certainly put the cheesy one-man-army factor right back in. "Now you can retire to a lifetime of frivolity!" "You have earned the title of Master of Destruction!" "You decide to remain in Hell and ensure no demon ever rises again."

Heck, that last bit from Doom 64 seems to segue directly into Doom 4's plot, where the Doom Slayer is a soldier who just ran around Hell killing all the demons until they pulled a Repercussion of Evil to stop him.

So yes, I basically agree with Doom 4's interpretation. Doom, like most video games, is a power fantasy, and it's perfectly self-aware of that. There are demons all around, they are unambiguously bad guys, they caused a lot of pain and death, you've gotta kick their asses to put a stop to that. And you can, and you will.



All that said I think it'd be pretty cool if they salvaged as much as possible of "1.0" to make something like a big DLC. As an stand alone game it would tank, but as a bonus campaign with a different character it could work. And even people who wouldn't like the slower-paced gameplay might be happy to get the new assets for SnapMap and multiplayer stuff.