Story telling elements Doom can excel at in the next game.

[Sig]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

There is so much you can expect from a brotastic shooter where the (silent) protagonist is an edgy space marine who expresses himself by punching computers and ripping monsters apart... I mean, do not get me wrong, I am all for more emotions in first-person games, but seeing how the target audience for Doom 2016 seems to be absolutely terrified by games like Gone Home, I would not hold my breath.

An emotional Doom would be dumb. Target audience my butt. Doom is FUN (Game. Fun.) because it is what it is. A bunch of Uncharted cut scenes would have stunk it up real shit like. (I like Uncharted, just saying.)

I think Doom has been a great reminder of making good video games doesn't need to equal some half ass movie-game like attempt. Games tend to be more like comics come to life in a progressing simulation rather than real deal movies. Games, generally take themselves too seriously when they try to be more than that. There are a few good 'movie games.' A few.

[ATP2555]

As long as the next Doom doesn't make you the only person who is able to kill something, I'm fine with it. I'd like to see living Elite Guards make an appearance. It annoys me how we read all that shit about them in the Codex, yet they're only corpses.

Sadly enough, people just like to live in the 90's, so they oppose everything that's modern. Cranky old geezers can't pull their heads out of their asses when shit goes through a change.

[Sig]

I very much expect the next game will have co-op.

[drokk]

Can we get some third person cutscenes in the next one ?

(Technically doom 1 had these)

[Trycon]

How about no cutscenes?

[snapshot]

Story should be told on Voice clips like BioShock and .... Doom 3.

[ATP2555]

Trycon said:

How about no cutscenes?

How about no?

[VGamingJunkie]

Doom 2016 had a few cutscenes, they just weren't very intrusive. Literally the first thing you see is a cutscene because you're not exactly in control of Doomguy when he's breaking out.

[drokk]

I mean cutscenes like the demon intros from doom 3 or seeing the doomguy in third person. Could do without talking head cutscenes tho

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Sig said:

An emotional Doom would be dumb.

It has never been attempted before. How could you possibly know?

And you know what *is* already "dumb"? Doom. The games - especially its most recent entries - tend to take their schlocky premise rather seriously, so I fail to see how "dumbness" would suddenly become a concern...

Doom is FUN (Game. Fun.) because it is what it is. A bunch of Uncharted cut scenes would have stunk it up real shit like. (I like Uncharted, just saying.)

... Uncharted? Really? That is the only game you can think of in terms of "emotional storytelling"?

If you like to think of video games as mere toys, that is fine, but you need to understand such narrow-minded mentality is doing a great disservice to the medium's potential and only serves to prove video game sceptics like the late Roger Ebert right.

I think Doom has been a great reminder of making good video games doesn't need to equal some half ass movie-game like attempt.

I would say it is a great reminder of just how cynicism can pay off in this industry. Too lazy to come up with an expressive protagonist, interactions that go beyond finishing moves-er, Glory Kills and an engaging, thought-provoking story in your AAA game? Just have your character be a mute space marine who punches things and tell your audience that they do not have to pay attention to your (unskippable) cutscenes; they will think it is "genius", "refreshing" and even "revolutionary"!

Seriously, this is not 1993 anymore and id Software is no longer a small independent game studio that has to work with limited resources. John Carmack's porno analogy might have been appropriate back then, but it does not work anymore.

[Gez]

I'd argue that Doom is very emotional already. Since the marine never talks, all the characterization he gets is through simple cues. Okay so the emotion he exhibits is mostly anger, contempt, and disgust -- the elevator scene at the beginning of the game is a good example of that. But what else do you want to convey? Fear and triumph perhaps? Those are the player's own, no need to show them on the character.

The Doom marine works because he's a blank slate. What's known about him:
- he's a badass survivor
- he's from some other dimension or something? he went through all this before somehow
- he's kind of fed up with the UAC's bullshit justifications
- he's eager to fight the demon invaders

That's it. Perfect blank slate for the player to slip in. The only way he could be more generic would be if the player could customize their marine by changing sex and skin color.

If you start giving him more characterization than that, you'll ruin his blank slate nature.

JohnnyTheWolf said:

If you like to think of video games as mere toys, that is fine, but you need to understand such narrow-minded mentality is doing a great disservice to the medium's potential and only serves to prove video game sceptics like the late Roger Ebert right.

If video games are art, then they should be their own form of art, and respect their medium, which is built on interactivity. If someone wants to make a movie out of a game so as to get a movie critic to think it's art like a movie, sorry, but you fail. In fact you'd only prove him right by advancing the idea that video games can only be art when they imitate an established, acknowledged form of art.

[VGamingJunkie]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

Seriously, this is not 1993 anymore and id Software is no longer a small independent game studio that has to work with limited resources. John Carmack's porno analogy might have been appropriate back then, but it does not work anymore.

Would you rather have another BS Call of Duty shooter? You sound disappointed that ID didn't go with their original "Call of Doom" concept.

[snapshot]

I don't mind a Call of Doom, as long as the gameplay is fast and the story is told in a way better than COD, Probably scripted sequences or recorded audio clips, and the non linear levels.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

MetroidJunkie said:

Would you rather have another BS Call of Duty shooter? You sound disappointed that ID didn't go with their original "Call of Doom" concept.

As I said before, at least it would have been different. Doom II has yet to get a proper contemporary remake and, judging by the footage released, Doom 4 definitely would have done justice to its epic premise. I mean, as much as I enjoy Doom II, I cannot deny how downright ugly and lackluster most of its maps are; a full-scale invasion of Earth deserves far better than a series of brown, abstract-looking levels that could take place anywhere. I would also argue that a game like Metro 2033 - which seems like what Doom 4 was going for - is already a much more emotional experience than Doom 2016.

You know what could have made for something truly bold and emotional, though? A Doom game where you do not actually play Doomguy but instead one of its foes: instead of having one overpowered Space Marine blazing through hordes of enemies, you could be a weak character trying to stop one overpowered enemy from slaughtering your brethren. There is already a mod, IMPatience, based on that very premise - although it is very limited - and I even remember an episode of the old Reboot cartoon show where the cast gets stuck in a fictional Evil Dead-inspired Doom clone.

But if that is too silly for you, then imagine this: after defeating the demons for good, Doomguy decides to go after the UAC directly and starts attacking their regular installations, shooting guards and civilians indiscriminately. You would play an innocent civilian trying to survive and finding a way to neutralise the assailant through improvised means, since you could not defeat him in a straight fight. Think of Alien Isolation, but nowhere near as scripted and with only one real enemy (Doomguy) freely roaming through one massive level, looking for people to kill and stuff to break.

[VGamingJunkie]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

But you know what could have made for something truly bold and emotional? A Doom game where you do not actually play Doomguy but instead one of its foes: instead of having one overpowered Space Marine blazing through hordes of enemies, you could be a weak monster trying to stop one overpowered enemy from slaughtering your brethren. There is already a mod, IMPatience, based on that very premise - although it is very limited - and I even remember an episode of the old Reboot cartoon show where the cast gets stuck in a fictional Evil Dead-inspired Doom clone.

So, basically, you want to try to paint demons in a good light. The whole point of the enemies being demons is that there's no moral dilemma in ripping them apart because they're devoted to the destruction of Earth. If ID tried to make the demons of Hell look sympathetic, nevermind the backlash from the community at large, but that would make Doom Slayer look like a monster instead of the hero.

[ChickenOrBeef]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

As I said before, at least it would have been different. Doom II has yet to get a proper contemporary remake and, judging by the footage released, Doom 4 definitely would have done justice to its epic premise. I mean, as much as I enjoy Doom II, I cannot deny how downright ugly and lackluster most of its maps are; a full-scale invasion of Earth deserves far better than a series of brown, abstract-looking levels that could take place anywhere. I would also argue that a game like Metro 2033 - which seems like what Doom 4 was going for - is already a much more emotional experience than Doom 2016.

You know what could have made for something truly bold and emotional, though? A Doom game where you do not actually play Doomguy but instead one of its foes: instead of having one overpowered Space Marine blazing through hordes of enemies, you could be a weak character trying to stop one overpowered enemy from slaughtering your brethren. There is already a mod, IMPatience, based on that very premise - although it is very limited - and I even remember an episode of the old Reboot cartoon show where the cast gets stuck in a fictional Evil Dead-inspired Doom clone.

But if that is too silly for you, then imagine this: after defeating the demons for good, Doomguy decides to go after the UAC directly and starts attacking their regular installations, shooting guards and civilians indiscriminately. You would play an innocent civilian trying to survive and finding a way to neutralise the assailant through improvised means, since you could not defeat him in a straight fight. Think of Alien Isolation, but nowhere near as scripted and with only one real enemy (Doomguy) freely roaming through one massive level, looking for people to kill and stuff to break.

The ideas you're talking about don't sound bad, but they might as well not even be "Doom" at that point. My whole argument with this topic is that Doom is already unique; especially in the AAA landscape. Sure, id Software could have made a game about an unarmed mother who tries to protect her infant child from a demon invasion by hiding in basements and offering her body to the demons in exchange for safe passage. That would be different and actually sounds kind of interesting if done right, but why use the Doom franchise for that?

There may be some niche PC-only shooters with some similar elements like Painkiller, but DOOM 2016 solidified the franchise's place in the AAA landscape.

[jazzmaster9]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

John Carmack's porno analogy might have been appropriate back then, but it does not work anymore work every now and then.

Fixed that for you. There is place for deep stroytelling but not EVERY games has to be Citizen Kane.

You: But that's an excuse for bad story telling
Me: Cinematic games are also an excuse for bad gameplay.
Both can be bad if taken to the extreme.

Doom has a balance of Story and Gameplay.

[snapshot]

jazzmaster9 said:

Doom has a balance of Story and Gameplay.

lol ? that doesn't work right with the new Doom...

Gameplay : Great and works very well.
Story : Yuck, who is this nerd i'm playing as.

[DooM_RO]

People who say the story in the new Doom is off just don't get it, this is exactly the kind of stuff these guys would have made. Goofy, corny stuff told with so much sincerity and enthusiasm that it's impossible not to love. I don't think it could have been better. Reminds me of Warhammer.

[snapshot]

Doesn't matter whoever wrote the storyline, My opinion would be the same :D.

[DooM_RO]

Not really what I'm saying. The story of Doom 2016 channels the spirit of the original Id devs.

[ATP2555]

DooM_RO said:

People who say the story in the new Doom is off just don't get it, this is exactly the kind of stuff these guys would have made. Goofy, corny stuff told with so much sincerity and enthusiasm that it's impossible not to love. I don't think it could have been better. Reminds me of Warhammer.

http://i.imgur.com/zUUvU8O.png

http://i.imgur.com/sOLTn8O.png

http://i.imgur.com/lsFrEWm.png

http://i.imgur.com/Nh1zzvO.png

Like I said, cranky geezers just can't get with the times.

[VGamingJunkie]

What's wrong with having a simple power fantasy that isn't muddied down by some complex takes itself seriously story? Why can't there be occasionally Action Movie type games where the plot doesn't have to be super realistic or emotional? Come on, the most important thing in a game is gameplay because that's the only thing you can't get by watching footage of it on Youtube.

[DooM_RO]

MetroidJunkie said:

What's wrong with having a simple power fantasy that isn't muddied down by some complex takes itself seriously story? Why can't there be occasionally Action Movie type games where the plot doesn't have to be super realistic or emotional? Come on, the most important thing in a game is gameplay because that's the only thing you can't get by watching footage of it on Youtube.

Yeah, we already have Wolfenstein for that and it does it really well. I really doubt Id have the writing chops Machine Games do and Doom just isn't the franchise that needs that sort of thing.

[MrSkeltal]

Almost every single linear shooter - both third and first person - since the last console generation has been heavily cinematic, I'm at loss why there's some people who also want Doom to be this way.

[drokk]

i hope the next game is about doomguy's search for his long lost mom/dad/daughter/daisy

[ATP2555]

MrSkeltal said:

Almost every single linear shooter - both third and first person - since the last console generation has been heavily cinematic, I'm at loss why there's some people who also want Doom to be this way.

It doesn't have to be as cinematic as, say, Call of Duty, specifically the Black Ops games which force you to endure boring unskippable sequences where you're bombarded by a forgettable character's monologue. It could be like Doom 3, where there's cutscenes involving certain plot points(such as Bertruger, or Campbell and Swann).

[jazzmaster9]

DMGUYDZ64 said:

lol ? that doesn't work right with the new Doom...

Gameplay : Great and works very well.
Story : Yuck, who is this nerd i'm playing as.

Gamplay: Great and works wekk
Story: Hell yeah, who is this badass im playing as.
There I Fixed your typo.

[VGamingJunkie]

DooM_RO said:

Yeah, we already have Wolfenstein for that and it does it really well. I really doubt Id have the writing chops Machine Games do and Doom just isn't the franchise that needs that sort of thing.

You're joking, right? Doom having a story was Tom Hall's idea and everyone else disagreed with him heavily. The closest thing Doom had to having a serious story was Doom 3 and, in case you couldn't tell, history hasn't exactly been kind to it.

[DOOMGUY_GODMODE]

Story is not for DOOM and emotional DOOMGUY!? what is wrong with you people.
some games are better without a story DOOM is one of them.