Where's the doomworld editorial that defended our game post-Columbine?

I'm aware of pretty much all of that aside from the 'reverse furry' bit which is really quite fascinating. I'm playing devil's advocate here - It's pretty obvious many animals have pretty developed cognitive abilities. I accept that humans are just another species and that we're not nearly as 'ahead of the pack' as many think we are. The thing is, people who subscribe to the Bible's teachings believe we are created in God's image thus somehow above all other animals. I was trying to make a case against that point, but given what kb1 has said, he doesn't really follow one particular faith, he simply believes in God.

(Also in my last post I already said I thought the assumption that we are super developed compared to animals was off-base)

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If we're an image of God, then we're not painting a very flattering picture of Him. Because humans are petty, selfish, short-sighted, and would rather see the world burn than change their habits.

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I couldn't agree more. Though over time we seem to slowly but surely improve in certain ways. According to TNG there was another world war and time of extreme turmoil before we finally improved our ways and set out for space. That seems as sensible as any other prediction I've heard so I'll go with it. I prefer to live my life thinking we won't let the world burn despite humanity's shortcomings, even if I sometimes think I'm deluding myself.

Also lol this got way offtopic but it was pretty interesting at least

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Gez said:

If we're an image of God, then we're not painting a very flattering picture of Him. Because humans are petty, selfish, short-sighted, and would rather see the world burn than change their habits.

This is why I like to think that if we are made in the image of gods, they're the Greek pantheon or the like - since they're basically what you get when you give humans waaaaaaaaay too much power.

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A religious discussion on Doomworld? What a treat! :D

I read the article yesterday, and I have to admit that it was pretty poor. It just feels like unfocused rambling, and because it is written with the presumption of his religion being true it feels more like he's arguing with himself than anything else.

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Gamer With Dignity said:

You really shouldn't be calling anyone else's beliefs absurd.

Why not? (even though I didn't.)

Gamer With Dignity said:

(...create highly poisonous chlorine gas...)

Wow. I suggest faith is a good thing, and you respond by trying to get me to poison myself (and, possibly more of the 1819 viewers of this thread). Do you realize that if even 1 percent of the viewers of this thread try your suggestion, you may have killed 18 people? And, yes, you could be liable. I bet you'd be praying then. So, yes, I am alarmed. You make my point.

Doomkid said:

...but given what kb1 has said, he doesn't really follow one particular faith, he simply believes in God.

I actually never explicitly claimed to have a particular belief :)

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Arctangent said:

Reverse furries are a thing that actually exist. Let that sink in.


"Reverse furries"? I don't think you know what a furry is. Unless you're trying to say that animals can have an interest in anthropomorphic (humanized) animals...? Do they also organize events and cons?

kb1 said:

Why not? (even though I didn't.)


Probably because you are the one asserting the existence of something super-natural that cannot be directly observed by people. I think it's completely normal to call somebody's personal beliefs absurd when they're asserted to be true, even though the bulk of evidence points to the contrary.

kb1 said:

Wow. I suggest faith is a good thing, and you respond by trying to get me to poison myself (and, possibly more of the 1819 viewers of this thread). Do you realize that if even 1 percent of the viewers of this thread try your suggestion, you may have killed 18 people? And, yes, you could be liable. I bet you'd be praying then. So, yes, I am alarmed. You make my point.


Honestly, this is kind of a ridiculous reason to be alarmed. If anything, with the dozens of news-articles that we receive every week surrounding religious extremism, you should (still) be more alarmed about religious people more than anything else. One person's shit-post on a forum seems like a poor reason to justify distrust of every non-religious person.

kb1 said:

I actually never explicitly claimed to have a particular belief :)


Since you only referred to your god as "God", and not "Allah", or "Gaia", or anything of the sort, I think it's safe to assume that you follow some sort of christian denomination.

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Agentbromsnor said:

"Reverse furries"? I don't think you know what a furry is. Unless you're trying to say that animals can have an interest in anthropomorphic (humanized) animals...? Do they also organize events and cons?


one Google search later, seems like it's sort of a thing:
http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Talk:Reverse-Furries
https://www.tumblr.com/search/reverse%20furry

kb1 said:

you respond by trying to get me to poison myself (and, possibly more of the 1819 viewers of this thread). Do you realize that if even 1 percent of the viewers of this thread try your suggestion, you may have killed 18 people? And, yes, you could be liable.


This is such a retarded point. Yes, it was probably out of line for a user to suggest that, but it was done obviously ironically and as a joke. If you're stupid enough to poison yourself because someone on the internet suggested it, then it's your own damned fault and you are the only one to blame. I mean, natural selection needs to happen somewhere eventually.

kb1 said:

I bet you'd be praying then.


And this is even more moronic, just like that whole "No atheists in foxholes" argument I used to hear when I was in the army (which is complete horse shit, by the way). Not a single logically thinking non-religious person is just going to magically think that praying to some invisible dude is going to change anything just because they're in a stressful environment. It's a tired argument, and it's a pointless one as well.

kb1 said:

So, yes, I am alarmed.


"Someone on the internet said I should make poison gas, so atheists are scary!"

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Agentbromsnor said:

I couldn't make out any concrete definitions on those websites.


Me either, and I think you'll agree that we don't understand "furry culture" to begin with. However, I was just pointing out that it is indeed a thing.

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Agentbromsnor said:

(a unique mixture of incomprehension, fabrication, deflection, misdirection...where to begin?)

I grow weary, but I'll do a short list:
* "...asserting the existence of something super-natural that cannot be directly observed by people"
1. Quote me.
2. vs. all the super-natural things that can be directly observed by people??
3. "super-natural?" Whoever said that?
4. Do things have to be "directly observed" to exist?

* "...bulk of evidence points to the contrary..."
Give one piece of evidence that provides any type of proof that there is no God.

* "...Honestly, this is kind of a ridiculous reason to be alarmed..." (in reference to the chlorine gas suggestion...)
See - here's where you're wrong: Based on your comprehension skills, it's quite possible that someone, younger perhaps, reads that post and decides to "Try It" :(

* (some deflection about extremism, cause, why not?)
* (some misdirection: poison -> extremism -> distrust non-religious people -> Profit!!)
How on Earth did you acquire the skills to interleave those ideas together, while simultaneously missing the entire point? And, where does "distrust of every non-religious person" come from??

Agentbromsnor said:

Since you only referred to your god as "God", and not "Allah", or "Gaia", or anything of the sort, I think it's safe to assume that you follow some sort of christian denomination.

Are you frequently misunderstood? You do a lot of assuming, don't you? I refer to my god as "God"? As explained a couple of times already, I never stated what my beliefs, if any, were. And, it's "Christian", with a capital "C", and "God" with a capital "G".

Sick Bow said:

This is such a retarded point.

Why make a retarded point? :)

Sick Bow said:

Yes, it was probably out of line for a user to suggest that, but it was done obviously ironically and as a joke.

Probably? Obviously to whom? As a joke? Ha ha.

Sick Bow said:

If you're stupid enough to poison yourself because someone on the internet suggested it, then it's your own damned fault and you are the only one to blame.

No kids, huh? How old were you when you learned what that combination of liquids would do to you? Godless? How about heartless?

Sick Bow said:

And this is even more moronic, just like that whole "No atheists in foxholes" argument I used to hear when I was in the army (which is complete horse shit, by the way).

You were never in the army? :)

Sick Bow said:

Not a single logically thinking non-religious (<- oxymoron alert) person is just going to magically think that praying to some invisible dude is going to change anything just because they're in a stressful environment.

And, yet, logically thinking people do pray to God (not some invisible dude), despite not believing that it will change things, and, thing do change for them at times. And, at times, said logical people proclaim to have witnessed a miracle result from said praying.

So, was it magic? Did these logical people become pointless all of a sudden? Did they breathe the gas?

Sick Bow said:

"Someone on the internet said I should make poison gas, so atheists are scary!"

Well, you seem to think that folks of all ages that really want that floor to be cleaned well, but either cannot read well or haven't passed Chemistry, should die, so how scary does that make you?

A final thought:
You know what's so "alarming" about all of this? I make a (arguably dis-favorable) statement about lack of faith, and in comes this feverish furious flapping of fingers, defending what, exactly? The right to not owe one red cent of gratitude for one's own existence, to a possible higher power? Cause, regardless of what I or anyone else says, nobody really knows what the actual truth is. You might think you know, but no one really does know, before their time.

To the point of totally misquoting, misunderstanding, misconstruing every sentence I typed, some of you have done your best to correct me and my religious ways, without even knowing what my beliefs were, if any.

But, what are you defending? Or stated differently, what would you lose by having faith in God (or Allah, or whomever you may choose to believe in). What would this belief cost you, and in which currency would you measure it in?.

People are actively expending a lot of energy defending their right to ensure that, at best, they are eaten by the worms. I am trying to understand this motive. Can anyone explain this rationally? And am I the only member on the forums willing to provide any defense for the rationale of having belief in a higher power?

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It's very clear that you have set aside any semblance of the word logic, and it's clear it's not worth my or anyone's effort to continue this debate. You've taken my points, set them aside, and just starting shitting in the reply box.

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kb1 said:

You know what's so "alarming" about all of this? I make a (arguably dis-favorable) statement about lack of faith, and in comes this feverish furious flapping of fingers, defending what, exactly?


It's a response to the fact that you consider atheism "alarming," "arrogant," "misguided," and "idiotic," and that people only become atheist because it's the "cool thing," or "because the famous people do it," and not because it's a sincere lack of belief in any deity.

But, what are you defending? Or stated differently, what would you lose by having faith in God (or Allah, or whomever you may choose to believe in). What would this belief cost you, and in which currency would you measure it in?.

People are actively expending a lot of energy defending their right to ensure that, at best, they are eaten by the worms. I am trying to understand this motive. Can anyone explain this rationally? And am I the only member on the forums willing to provide any defense for the rationale of having belief in a higher power?


See, what I'm getting from this attitude right here is that you see atheism as some sort of act of rebellion, and don't see the possibility that some people simply don't believe in any higher being. You try to ask what the belief would "cost us," as if that's why we don't believe in anything. We're, as I understand it, defending ourselves not because we're out to get you or your belief (whatever that may be), but because we don't like your assumptions and attitudes towards atheism.

Also, on a mostly unrelated note, I'd like to say that I don't really like that Pascal's wager logic. For one, I agree with you that we don't exactly know the truth- which would make choosing a god just to "be safe" quite moot, as the real chances of that working out are slim. I mean, after all, there are a couple thousand deities that humans worship, and if there is a real deity after all it may (and, in my opinion, probably) won't end up being any of those. Secondly, the wager assumes that you can just pick a god and make yourself believe in it. But honestly, as someone who made sure I did everything to convince myself otherwise before deciding that I was an atheist, I can tell you that trying to convert to a religion just in order to avoid being damned to some cruel underworld would not work out for me, even if I wanted.

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Random question not directed at anyone: why would a supreme being care if we believed in him; aren't our actions more important than our thoughts?

On that note: who cares; we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Finding a common, middle ground and standing together is more worth the time-investment of an unanswerable debate about nothing than pointing fingers and declaring intelligence levels, especially if both sides are brick walls.

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Sick Bow said:

It's very clear that you have set aside any semblance of the word logic...You've taken my points, set them aside, and just starting shitting in the reply box.

Maybe I was just dropping your points into the reply box instead...Your "logic" was essentially that "logical" people use "logic", and the rest should be logically be flushed out. You see, you can't just proclaim that something is logical, just because you say it. It has to withstand reason, for one. This is your logic:
"retarded", "stupid", "moronic", "joke", "horse-shit", "magic", "dude", "scary", "shitting".

Sick Bow said:

...and it's clear it's not worth my or anyone's effort to continue this debate.

You, or anyone, huh?

Yes folks, after having silently laughed at some chlorine-huffing children in some obviously-ironic, but-as-of-yet-untold jokingly way, and having slayed the Almighty God in some deep dark foxhole, dare not continue to debate with Sir Sick Bow: Lord of Logic, undebatable Purveyor of Points! So, tell me, are those jokes ironically obvious, or are they obviously ironic? Hell, I'd settle for "When do they become funny?"

TheMightyHeracross said:

(A lot of reasonable points, so I quoted them)
It's a response to the fact that you consider atheism "alarming," "arrogant," "misguided," and "idiotic," and that people only become atheist because it's the "cool thing," or "because the famous people do it," and not because it's a sincere lack of belief in any deity.

It does alarm me, but I won't dwell on that further. I'm sure I ticked off some people...apparently the entire DoomWorld forum minus one. Then again, if God exists, the descriptions I used probably don't scratch the surface, right?

TheMightyHeracross said:

See, what I'm getting from this attitude right here is that you see atheism as some sort of act of rebellion, and don't see the possibility that some people simply don't believe in any higher being. You try to ask what the belief would "cost us," as if that's why we don't believe in anything. We're, as I understand it, defending ourselves not because we're out to get you or your belief (whatever that may be), but because we don't like your assumptions and attitudes towards atheism.

Wow, there's that "us" vs. "you" thing. I don't deal in absolutes. Plenty of it is rebellion, some more is group think, and I'm sure there are plenty of "true non-believers" too. And, no, I am apparently the one doing most of the defending. After all, why should a non-believer care what I think, if I am defending belief, as they are much-less invested, so to speak. A nod towards the rebellion thing.

TheMightyHeracross said:

Also, on a mostly unrelated note, I'd like to say that I don't really like that Pascal's wager logic. For one, I agree with you that we don't exactly know the truth- which would make choosing a god just to "be safe" quite moot, as the real chances of that working out are slim. I mean, after all, there are a couple thousand deities that humans worship, and if there is a real deity after all it may (and, in my opinion, probably) won't end up being any of those. Secondly, the wager assumes that you can just pick a god and make yourself believe in it. But honestly, as someone who made sure I did everything to convince myself otherwise before deciding that I was an atheist, I can tell you that trying to convert to a religion just in order to avoid being damned to some cruel underworld would not work out for me, even if I wanted.

Again, I hear you, and, yes, the "wager" is shit. It isn't real if it isn't true belief. Now you state that you "did everything to convince yourself." Is that really how you decide in what to believe? Cause belief is a choice, regardless of what you believe - it's not something that happens to you. When you are in control of your mind, you choose what you believe, just like you choose how you feel.

One of the silliest things I hear is when someone says "He pissed me off", or "She made me cry." In reality, we interpret what happens in our lives, and then in a split-second, we decide how to feel about it. Many people don't understand this. Yes, we have "auto-pilot" mode as well, but we choose to let it take over. Some people never learn this, and walk through there whole lives "at effect" of everything, instead of being in control of the direction of their life.

The same is true about faith. And, it's not something that has to be put on display in some forum on the web - it is yours to have or not. I choose to believe that the beauty I see each day, in Nature, for example, is not just there as a catalyst for reproduction (cause alcohol will work in a pinch :), and, no, to proclaim that everything today is a product of a handful of random chemical/electrical reactions - that sells everything short.

Now I don't buy into the idea that Book X is the proper choice, and all others are wrong. I find them all fascinating, and just as probably equally "wrong" as the other. I see no separation between science and faith, as they describe the same thing: What is. If you believe in Mathematics, in a balanced equation, in logic, in probability, we should be 0. Or infinity. Or noise. Full darkness, or blinding light. For trillions of trillions of untold miles in every direction, everything sucks ass, yet, we have this little sphere of relatively pleasant temperatures, abundant with beautiful things (and some ugly shit), but we're able to live on, eat, breathe, make puppies, enjoy all of the miraculous happenings all around us.

It's an unbalanced equation. There's no squares or triangles in Nature, and yet it's full of beauty and wonder. This is not what randomness looks like. Yeah, yeah, evolution, but that don't explain everything to me. To me, that makes the science too easy.

Forget Heaven and Hell, and the long-robed man. Maybe your faith is that there are little green men flying around in UFOs. Wouldn't they be considered a higher power? Cause, if we're all there is, that's pretty lame to me. Given the fact that belief is a choice, I choose to believe that we are not an ordered result of a bunch of random chemical reactions. I choose to believe that we exist for a reason.

Just using pure logic, having no faith in anything but us is the most boring, hopeless possibility...or, at best, a pine box.

Fonze said:

Random question not directed at anyone: why would a supreme being care if we believed in him; aren't our actions more important than our thoughts?

Don't have an answer on that one, though belief is for the believer too.

Fonze said:

On that note: who cares; we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Finding a common, middle ground and standing together is more worth the time-investment of an unanswerable debate about nothing than pointing fingers and declaring intelligence levels, especially if both sides are brick walls.

But, at least one of those sides is probably true :) (nice, non-commital answer, huh?)

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Again, I hear you, and, yes, the "wager" is shit. It isn't real if it isn't true belief. Now you state that you "did everything to convince yourself." Is that really how you decide in what to believe? Cause belief is a choice, regardless of what you believe - it's not something that happens to you. When you are in control of your mind, you choose what you believe, just like you choose how you feel.


The point that I was making there was that around the time I realized I wasn't buying the whole story about God and Jesus, Heaven and Hell, etc, I actually did look at arguments for and against the Bible before deciding that I didn't believe in it. I kind of half-agree with you- it is something you decide, but on the other hand, there's a point when someone's not going to believe something that they don't think makes sense without some evidence. Do you think you could sincerely convince yourself that Santa exists, for example? Same thing- I could try to "choose" to believe in God, but in the end, I wouldn't be fooling myself.

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