Vanilla Bugs and Fixes

Voros said:

Also, whenever I load MAP08 with another map (say the vanilla MAP04), there're always parts of the map with the medusa effect, and they occur in the same regions everytime. That doesn't happen when I only load the MAP08 PWAD. I'm interested as to why this happens.


MAP08 is MAP01 in the wad. All repo level wads should have matching map and wad names. Map24.wad is actually MAP12, but once compiled becomes map24.

Amarande said:

Can you indicate where you were standing/looking when evidence of drawseg overflow occurs?


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I need to get back to real work. So will be taking a break for a while.

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Amarande said:

Can you indicate where you were standing/looking when evidence of drawseg overflow occurs?



Basically in any of the corners looking at the center structure. That thing with its pillars is deadly for drawsegs.

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The corner with the building containing the blue key tends to be the biggest issue, as most of the center structure can be seen from here, while in the other corners, the view is usually blocked off (at least enough of it).

Edit: I just there are more vanillafied maps. C4M4 and C3M8 seem good. Map09 could either use more tougher enemies or less ammo pickups (its a bit too much) though.

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I was just making sure they are playable without crashes, blockages, or broken traps/spawners in vanilla at the moment. There are quite a few new maps since I last did a big batch of skill tested adjustments. When I have more time, I will play through each skill carefully and balance it out.

Also have a MAP24 planned out. Most of the map is actually vanilla. The boom-teleport tunnel was easy to squeeze in normal teleports. But the rooftops were brutal on visplanes. I had to scrap my copy due to bad planning. If rooftops are separated entirely from map and connected with a teleport in hall, they will work fine. Can even add in more big buildings as scenery; they are just simple huge 4 linedefs.

MAP13 I really want to save. Even when trying for a speed run I always wind up going entirely different routes. The boom stuff needs to go. Can replace the extra keys with switches. Machine in middle will definitely need to go though. Time consuming, but not a hard vanillification.

Sneak peak of MAP22
This link is not a submission
I tried to make a reasonable solution to the boom monsters spawners. Map is playable as limit removing, still has bad VPO.

Not touching the gameplay or overall style/feel of any map. Almost all look nearly identical, or just as good.

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MAP22 submission. Outside area not as jagged, epic ceiling not as epic, stairs not as stairsy, fully vanilla(hopefully). Monster spawner is vanilla and functions as normal, though not as nice.
http://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/freedoom/catoptromancy/map22_c6.wad
http://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/freedoom/catoptromancy/fd2-map22-v1.lmp

MAP06 VPOs gone. Boom stuff gone. Managed to replicate the bulletproof windows in vanilla.
http://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/freedoom/catoptromancy/map06_c1.wad
http://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/freedoom/catoptromancy/fd2-map06-v1.lmp

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I noticed there is a lot of map related activity on the repo. Any map I fix can also be replaced. There are several that would be great for replacing. Quite a few freedoom1 maps could be replaced as well.


EDIT>
MAP13 is coming along. VPOs are mostly gone. The conveyor system and machine had to be greatly simplified, but still look reasonably similar. I never figured out what the machine really does. I think it was mainly a system to automatically turn on conveyors to blow up barrels in machine, but gameplay-wise, I have no idea.
The skies are still a bit of a mess, will sort out that last. The intricate key system will need to be replaced. Can replace keys with switches to ensure the same routes are used. Gameplay had to be changed slightly, though is nearly identical. This one will take awhile. Have a
peek.

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Will casual players ragequit on that map? Freedoom is supposed to be for everyone, in a sense, so it should be a bit friendlier. Preferably, a map that doesn't require you to have past knowledge of said map, is a good way to make it friendly for everyone.

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I think it was up for replacement for a long time. It was always very confusing and not like any other map.

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A lot of people said once that they quit their play through of Freedoom upon getting to wesley's map09 (which is now replaced). I tried it once, and it truly was frustrating.

Anyways, I still don't understand how you finish map13. It's where I ragequit myself, sadly.

There's a good replacement in the Nex Credo mapset though. Same for map19.

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I have been mainly playing freedoom for years. I need to test maps to make sure they are exit-able. With many playthroughs, map09 was trivial and map13 was not nearly as bad. I still get kinda lost on map13, my demo routes are never the same.

What is the status on this new mapset? How many maps does it replace and are they finished? I want to focus more time on maps we are keeping. I really want next release to be as vanilla as possible.

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It's not new exactly, but Jayextee has donated the whole thing to Freedoom.
Nex Credo: https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/m-o/nexcredo
It's vanilla and complete.

Picked out two maps from here for map14 (jon's map, which again, he said he rather have his maps removed then converted) and map31 slots. I think map03 and map10 were the ones I picked IIRC.

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They look really good, we can add most of them. Freedoom should probably keep its MAP07. Not sure how to go about submitting them.
We need to really shuffle the current maps around, but I think we have enough right now for a full vanilla release.

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Before the next release, I'd like to see YukiHerz's map get in, preferably as C1M1, first, since it's pretty much the first map utilising the Aquatex textures ready to be added (although, Dragonfly's map needs to be edited to remove the usage of Aquatex flats). First impressions matter.

Speaking of the next release, is there a potential date set, or is it just "when it's ready?"

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Catoptromancy said:

Freedoom should probably keep its MAP07.


I don't know. This is the one map where the vanillafication turned an already problematic map into a pile of shit because most of the cover spots for the player had to be removed. It's downright unpleasant to play in its current state. In terms of gameplay by far the weakest map in the entire set.

This definitely needs a bit of work to get those cover spots back, maybe by extending the Mancubus alcoves far enough so that the player can hide behind the crates. This wouldn't even produce new walls, just move the 8 outer vertices a bit further outward and adjust the texturing to fit the change.

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Map07's strategy is by far, the simplest one you find yourself in throughout all of Phase 2: go trigger happy while running in a circle around the map continuously until everything's dead.

I recently saw this video related to BD, where this map was taken for the Starter Pack, and the player seemed like a badass shooting everything while running around the damn map.

Ever since then, I thought to myself whether this was a good move or bad move.

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Voros said:

Map07's strategy is by far, the simplest one you find yourself in throughout all of Phase 2: go trigger happy while running in a circle around the map continuously until everything's dead.


If that's the entire strategy here, dump the map. It's not fun to play as it is and the changes to the vanilla version take out the little bit of strategic options that was still possible. Actually, I think what could really help if the closed-off multiplayer parts would open once the player enters the alcoves, then the map is far more open to different strategies as well.

In its current state the map is a lost cause, though.

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Voros said:

Map07's strategy is by far, the simplest one you find yourself in throughout all of Phase 2.


because it i dont countined my map is so much curve in gameplay balance.

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Protox said:

because it i dont countined my map is so much curve in gameplay balance.

I was referring to Freedoom's map07, not your map07.

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With so many new or updated map submissions this is getting complicated. I will try to organize the submissions. Hopefully this workflow will make things easier.

First, commit everything on the Map Submissions thread.
Second, commit all nexcredo maps into replaceable map slots.
Third, reorganize maps once all maps are committed.

Maps to be replaced entirely so far, that I know of: 13, 14, 17, 19, 24, 31.

Zok maps will be decided on later. E2M5 could be salvaged to vanilla without ruining, but trying to contact Zok first.

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17 and 24 were never really finished. 24 was abandoned years ago and had been touched up constantly. 17 just feels bland and has odd gameplay.

That new map set is nearly vanilla right now. I blasted through them with chocorenderlimits. Maps also look awesome and could replace Zok maps, if zok doesnt want his vanillafied.

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Several Zok posts:
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1535069
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1535063
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1534643

It seems like if his maps stay, and aren't majorly changed, I think he'll be fine.
If they're removed, then so be it. He doesn't seem to mind.

You said that his maps were mostly vanilla compatible (you know, chocorenderlimits has increased limits than vanilla/chocolate), so I think they can stay with minor edits.

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He did not want his maps to be an in alternate freedoom wad of old maps. Converting them to vanilla was not really discussed. Still lots to do while we wait for him to show up.

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Catoptromancy said:

Maps to be replaced entirely so far, that I know of: 13, 14, 17, 19, 24, 31.



Actually, those 6 have been some of the biggest problems for me in the entire mapset so it's nice to see them replaced.

14, 17 and 31 are just the some of the true points in the entire map set, either blandly made or in case of 31 the gameplay truly sucked.

13 and 19 have interesting concepts but as a whole had rather been turn-offs for me because the gameplay was a bit off.

And 24, while having some good looking parts is just too different and seriously lacks consistency with other parts of itself and especially with the rest of the map. It's something that would be ok as a solo release but not as part of a 32 level episode which clashes so much with its style.

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14 was a placeholder map. Naturally, it wouldn't fit with the whole set. Chose Nex Credo's map03 for it IIRC.
31 was strange indeed. Chose to use Nex Credo's map10 for it.
13 and 19 went for so much realism, the fun was gone. Again, Nex Credo maps.

17 and 24, I haven't heard of being bad until now.

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Voros said:

13 and 19 went for so much realism, the fun was gone. Again, Nex Credo maps.


I wouldn't say it was realism that killed the fun but that the maps clearly did not do their layout to make gameplay fun. MAP13 would have been a lot better if it wasn't so cramped.

Voros said:

17 and 24, I haven't heard of being bad until now.


17 looks way too simplistic, it is just a large square area divided into smaller squares of different heights. Not really much there that looked interesting.

24 is what you named 'too much realism', but done in a better way. It still stood out like a sore thumb, not for being bad but for being too different - and unpolished in some areas.

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Graf Zahl said:

it is just a large square area divided into smaller squares of different heights. Not really much there that looked interesting.

That kinda reminds me of map29. From the automap, you can tell the whole map is one big square. It would be better if it wasn't such a perfect square, or at least kept the walls hidden in the automap.

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One word about the NexCredo maps. While they are overall perfect substitutes I recommend changing the exit teleporter. This mod uses the same style as Plutonia and that immediately stands out in the project as a whole.

You should also consider moving the new MAP31 to MAP32, I think that one with its Cyberdemon overkill is better suited as the super-secret - it may be a bit hard to add a second exit into that small level anyway.

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