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GoatLord

Hour long interview with Hugo Martin via /noclip

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Haven't checked it out yet, but I'm quite pleased to see /noclip doing such extensive coverage on the game's history.

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Hugo is very charismatic (compared to the other staff) I could tell with the amount of editing in noclip that Hugo probably had way more to say than any of the other guys.

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Looking forward to watching this later tonight!

For some reason, I loved watching him being interviewed in the documentary. There's something about his onscreen presence that makes me want to listen to everything he has to say.

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Hugo and Marty are my favorite New-Id devs. I bet they're a lot of fun to work with. They would have been right at home in 1993 Id.

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Really fascinating interview. Love this guy's enthusiasm for the whole project and crew. I suddenly have a lot more respect for id (a relatively small team) and their capability of undertaking this iteration of the project so expertly in such a stringent timeframe.

Spoiler

So he reads Doomworld, huh?

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Doomguy has never been god until DOOM4. In every other DOOM game he's just a marine that survives and retaliates. He's never been portrayed as an unstoppable killing machine that exists only to destroy demons. He's not 'looking for a fight', more like he HAS to fight to survive.

It goes back to what I said before - DOOM4 is what people REMEMBER the franchise to be.

I do however think that the approach to the protagonist they have in DOOM4 feels really fresh. I love the intro and his general attitude throughout the game and it's really the lore that ruins it for me. This idea that he's a god of destruction on a demon-killing vacation and that demons are literally afraid of him. That's not DOOM, that's Duke Nukem - a super confident badass action hero that enjoys kicking alien asses. THANKFULLY the gameplay does not support that and demons in DOOM4 are just as vicious and relentless as you'd expect them to be.

Martin says that they went from a slow mystery buildup to comic book insanity. So basically from one extreme to the other. How about finding a sweet spot in the middle? It's not about being a 100% serious, more like avoiding stuff that is just plain stupid. Like the DEMONIC INVASION IN PROGRESS or the hologram messages.

That's really my biggest issue, that they have no restraint. Instead of settling on some reasonable level of looseness they just went all in. I really don't see how adding all of that silliness was neccessary.

I have no problem with what the Doomguy does or is in the gameplay department. But to me the lore has crossed the line between cool and stupid. Yes, I get it, this isn't a 'ruhlistic millitary simulator', you don't need to turn everything into a joke because of that.

Just my thoughts after watching the whole interview.

PS: does the release of this episode mean there's still hope for more DOOM4 1.0 / QC14 footage? An entire video dedicated to that would be awesome.

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Touchdown said:

Doomguy has never been god until DOOM4. In every other DOOM game he's just a marine that survives and retaliates. He's never been portrayed as an unstoppable killing machine that exists only to destroy demons. He's not 'looking for a fight', more like he HAS to fight to survive.

It goes back to what I said before - DOOM4 is what people REMEMBER the franchise to be.

...

That's really my biggest issue, that they have no restraint. Instead of settling on some reasonable level of looseness they just went all in. I really don't see how adding all of that silliness was neccessary.

I dunno, you're going quite heavy with your own interpretation of the tone of the originals when they're actually even goofier than the 2016 game. The only restraint on display is the one imposed by technological limitations. And Doomguy is pretty much as insane as Doomslayer. After clearing out the infested Deimos base and effectively defeating the invasion, he rappels down to Hell to punish the demons. Probably on his own dick, because good luck finding a rope that long. Killing demons is his only driving force by that point, because

YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE ESCAPING FROM HELL, BUT YOU'LL MAKE THE BASTARDS SORRY THEY EVER HEARD OF YOU!


The game is literally screaming at you how badass you are, heh. In Doom 2 you win in map11 (!!), then sit down in expectation of death's sweet embrace, because the Earth is lost by that point, completely overrun by demons and the remnants of humankind evacuated... but nope! You're told that the origin of the invasion is in your hometown and we just can't let such a slight go unpunished, can we. Basically two thirds of the game consist of you bullying the demons for something as consequential in the larger scope as, um, "shooting up your ride". I wonder if we narrowly escaped having to fight your demonized mom on map30, heh.

And E4 is a vengeful rampage in the name of your pet bunny Daisy.

I actually really like what id did in Doom 2016. Instead of these pathetic, flimsy, paper-thin excuses for a story that were probably written 5 minutes before the game was shipped by someone who vaguely remembered Tom Hall's ideas, we get this fleshed out story with tons of lore bits. Except its seriousness is way over the top and everyone takes the ridiculous nonsense in their stride like in a Hot Shots movie. And the Doomslayer is completely taken out of the story tone, because jesus christ no more bunnies or hometowns, thank you. This guy has been doing the same shit for longer than he can remember, so here comes round 8651 or whatever. I love it.

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Hugo is a really funny and charismatic guy, really full of soul and clearly cares about the franchise. While I prefer a more subtle, down-to-earth DoomGuy, I understand why he sees it the way he does. More Ash Williams and less Ellen Ripley.

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Trycon said:

Jesus... not this again.


Yeah, fuck having a discussion! That's not what forums are for!

dew said:

I dunno, you're going quite heavy with your own interpretation of the tone of the originals when they're actually even goofier than the 2016 game.


I guess I'm closer to Kevin Cloud than Hugo Martin on this, if you rememeber what he said in part 1. But I'm also not a fan of an idea that a 20 year old arcade shooter has to be translated so literally into a modern era. People use this argument over and over that the original game was silly or cartoony. So what? I think it's perfectly fine for the tone to evolve into something more serious especially considering that 93 was certainly not offering many options other than being cartoony. And when you look at DOOM3... I'm certainly not alone in that.

Also, just for the sake of answering your points:

dew said:

After clearing out the infested Deimos base and effectively defeating the invasion, he rappels down to Hell to punish the demons.


And not because there's nowhere else to go and nothing else to do?

dew said:

The game is literally screaming at you how badass you are, heh. In Doom 2 you win in map11 (!!), then sit down in expectation of death's sweet embrace, because the Earth is lost by that point, completely overrun by demons and the remnants of humankind evacuated... but nope! You're told that the origin of the invasion is in your hometown and we just can't let such a slight go unpunished, can we


Exactly, he's sitting down and waiting for death, not rushing towards armies of demons to slaughter them with a devilish smile on his face. It's enough for him that he's helped the remnants of human race until he hears that there's still a chance to block the Hellgate. And did you forget the 'slowly and painfully you get up and return to the fray' part?

dew said:

And E4 is a vengeful rampage in the name of your pet bunny Daisy.


Wasn't that like the last line added at the end of the proper explaination? I really don't think that's the REAL reason why Doomguy keeps fighting. ;)

GoatLord said:

Hugo is a really funny and charismatic guy, really full of soul and clearly cares about the franchise. While I prefer a more subtle, down-to-earth DoomGuy, I understand why he sees it the way he does. More Ash Williams and less Ellen Ripley.


I'm still glad. I may disagree with some of their decisions but it worked and honestly I'm happy to see both DOOM and id finally taking back their crown.

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Touchdown said:

I guess I'm closer to Kevin Cloud than Hugo Martin on this, if you rememeber what he said in part 1. But I'm also not a fan of an idea that a 20 year old arcade shooter has to be translated so literally into a modern era. People use this argument over and over that the original game was silly or cartoony. So what? I think it's perfectly fine for the tone to evolve into something more serious especially considering that 93 was certainly not offering many options other than being cartoony. And when you look at DOOM3... I'm certainly not alone in that.

I can respect that. Doom 3 looked appealing, the horror style is appealing, but it didn't work out well enough in the end. You're better off playing Dead Space, imo. And from the sound of it (and the look of what was leaked out), the Doom 4 1.0 was on its way to "not working out well enough" as well. I bet it would be at least as good as Rage, because the people working on it are pros... but it would be a flawed product at its core and it would get forgotten really fast. Not enough for me! The "what if" reality where we get Call of Doom doesn't mean we get a good game, even if the look and tone of it is one you prefer. That's why I think it's great they were able to recognize and uproot the problem, then turn it on its head, kind of. Could the game be better? Sure. Could the tone be better? Not by much if you ask me, heh.

Touchdown said:

And not because there's nowhere else to go and nothing else to do?

Exactly, he's sitting down and waiting for death, not rushing towards armies of demons to slaughter them with a devilish smile on his face. It's enough for him that he's helped the remnants of human race until he hears that there's still a chance to block the Hellgate. And did you forget the 'slowly and painfully you get up and return to the fray' part?

He was ready to sit down and die after the job was done so many times, but he always chose to go bully some more demons, because there are so many convenient extra goals along the path... coincidence? I don't think so! I bet there's that "picked up the BFG" vicious grin every time he thinks "welp, might as well". :p

Touchdown said:

Wasn't that like the last line added at the end of the proper explaination? I really don't think that's the REAL reason why Doomguy keeps fighting. ;)

They did, and it's ridiculous. But so is most of the other story stuff. And Hugo Martin says they worked on the story as the last thing, so hey, faithful!

I also don't think Doom 2016 actually embraces the stupidity of the Doom comic, that's an entire new level of cheese. If anything, the game walks the fine line between ridiculously funny and ridiculously stupid better than... a certain project.

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Yeah the campaign of Ultimate Doom covers 36 different locations with a death toll of 2,000+

This doesn't seem like the behavior of someone who is just trying to survive. The dude is a righteous killing machine.

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dew said:

I also don't think Doom 2016 actually embraces the stupidity of the Doom comic, that's an entire new level of cheese. If anything, the game walks the fine line between ridiculously funny and ridiculously stupid better than... a certain project.


Well, like I said before, generally I'm not bothered by that in DOOM4 except for those selected moments with the lore where they go too far, in my opinion. I can absolutly enjoy the general theme but I don't need the game screaming at every opportunity how it's not taking itself too seriously. In my book that crosses the line of trying too hard and it gets too silly.

There are those little things in games that annoy me in that regard, like in Portal 2. I can mostly just enjoy the ride without overthinking it but every now and then there's something so ridiculous that it's just stupid (like the fluid that temporarily turns blood into gasoline).

40oz said:

Yeah the campaign of Ultimate Doom covers 36 different locations with a death toll of 2,000+

This doesn't seem like the behavior of someone who is just trying to survive. The dude is a righteous killing machine.


But you can say this pretty much about any action movie / game protagonist, no? Such games are primarily focused on combat, thus the body count is high. We might as well start questioning health pick ups.

Besides, if you're trying to survive but there's a horde of demons in front of you, are you going to say "well, as a survivor it's not ok for me to kill that many living things so I'll just lie down and die"? The point I'm making is that yes, he kills a lot of demons but he does that because he has to in order to survive. Not because he enjoys it and not because that's his sole purpose in life, like in DOOM4.

I think games should find the right balance between gameplay elements being fun and not exaggerating the lore supporting it. Not everything has to be explained because we can suspend our disbelief. Yeah, health pack are unrealistic but their existance won't bother anyone... unless you go out of your way to explain them. BioShock1 made that mistake where they wanted everything to be explained and it made it a bit silly at the end.

In DOOM4 folks at id have noticed that Doomguy kills a lot of demons so they decided to 'call it what it is' and I don't think that was neccessary. Suddenly he's a god and his armor was created in forges of Hell and there's an angel looking over him and he's immortal and he's been wrecking havoc in Hell for eons... I mean, seriously?

I'd prefer him to be what he's always been in my eyes, kind of a badass survivor. Yes, he kicks major ass and he's awesome but fundamentally he only does what he has to do. Again, that's what I see in the Fight Like Hell trailer:

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No one really said that Doomslayer kills the demons for fun. That sounds more like Brutal Doomguy, who tends to taunt at them, stylishly finish them off and basically act like a maniac with a lust for blood.
Doomslayer kills the demons because of his rage towards them AND he has to survive, by inevitably killing them. One's rage can fuel an individual to do anything for any amount of time, doesn't mean it's his sole purpose in life. More like "I want to kill them all so that my rage is satisfied".

Touchdown said:

In DOOM4 folks at id have noticed that Doomguy kills a lot of demons so they decided to 'call it what it is' and I don't think that was neccessary. Suddenly he's a god and his armor was created in forges of Hell and there's an angel looking over him and he's immortal and he's been wrecking havoc in Hell for eons... I mean, seriously?

Is he REALLY a "god"?
What's wrong with armor straight from Hell? It's a bit funny, as he uses the forged-in-Hell armor to kick Hell's butt. Heh.
I don't think an angel looks over him. More like an angel granted him power and speed long ago, then Doomslayer did the rest by himself.
Who said he's immortal? Nobody.
And what's wrong with giving Doomslayer's backstory as "killed lots and lots and lots of demons?" Isn't that what a typically Doom game is like? Doomguy killing lots and lots and lots of demons?

I think you're thinking too much. Thinking about Doom logic can be a pain in the ass. It's just a game. If it's ridiculous, laugh at it. If serious, stay sharp.

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Voros said:

stylishly finish them off and basically act like a maniac with a lust for blood.

Have you even played DOOM4, Voros? ;)

Voros said:

One's rage can fuel an individual to do anything for any amount of time, doesn't mean it's his sole purpose in life. (...) Who said he's immortal?

I'd say staying in Hell for eons just to kill demons is a pretty good basis for saying it's his sole purpose in life. You wouldn't do it if your goal was to merely survive or stop the invasion. Also, if you're living for eons, I think you're pretty much immortal (the Night Elf from WarCraft kind of immortality - you can die but you won't unless someone kills you).

Voros said:

Is he REALLY a "god"? (...) I don't think an angel looks over him.

Hugo Martin constantly calls him god. Not a literal GOD of course, just someone with a godlike power. And there is this picture of a seraphim watching over him as he fights demons alongside Night Sentinels.

Voros said:

What's wrong with armor straight from Hell?

It's not about that one thing. More like all of those things I've mentioned combined. It's like those cliche troubled characters that basically tick off all the conceivable boxes for a "this guy had a horrible, HORRIBLE past" profile (dead parents, dead wife, dead child, dead friends, trauma from war, dead pet, etc). A different take but the same type of an exaggeration. They jam so many things together to make him awesome that it's just ridiculous, like they desperately want to make sure everyone gets it.

Voros said:

And what's wrong with giving Doomslayer's backstory as "killed lots and lots and lots of demons?" Isn't that what a typically Doom game is like? Doomguy killing lots and lots and lots of demons?

I think you're thinking too much. Thinking about Doom logic can be a pain in the ass. It's just a game. If it's ridiculous, laugh at it. If serious, stay sharp.


I have already explained my take on who Doomguy is in my last post, I think it's pretty clear.

Also, how am I overthinking it? Even if I was to push it, it'd still be pretty much DOOM3 level, which is an official DOOM game... So it doesn't seem like I'm saying anything outrageous here or making up ridiculous interpretations. Unpopular, yes, but not unreasonable, I think.

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Touchdown said:

People use this argument over and over that the original game was silly or cartoony. So what? I think it's perfectly fine for the tone to evolve into something more serious especially considering that 93 was certainly not offering many options other than being cartoony.

By that logic we would've gotten an edgy Mario reboot by now. Hell, we already got an edgy Sonic reboot and look how much of a shitshow that turned out to be.

It's okay to imagine things, but you seem to be unable to separate what you interpreted the original game as (or what you wanted it to be) from what it actually was.

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Jaxxoon R said:

By that logic we would've gotten an edgy Mario reboot by now. Hell, we already got an edgy Sonic reboot and look how much of a shitshow that turned out to be.

It's okay to imagine things, but you seem to be unable to separate what you interpreted the original game as (or what you wanted it to be) from what it actually was.


It's interesting that people see my take on the franchise as something completely unreasonable and detached. Like I'm proposing something totally unlike the original games. Did you miss the fact that I'm primarily talking about dialing back the insanity of DOOM4 in just a few areas, not all of them? I mean, sure, >>I<< would be fine with a 100% gritty and serious DOOM but that's not what we're discussing here. Also, DOOM3.

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Jaxxoon R said:

Doom 3 was hilarious. They tried pretty hard to get the subject matter to not look stupid.

And it really succeeded on that, it took the plotline from the original games ("scientist open a portal to hell in mars") and it presented it as serious as it could. Doom 3 needs more credit in terms of storyline since it had a good one.

Both 2016 Doom, and Doom 3 gameplay reflect the tone of it's storyline. Doom 3 took it as serious as it could, and it derived into a horror style gameplay, while 2016 Doom was an action game first and it's tone reflects that

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Nah, it really didn't. DOOM³ is all sorts of unintentionally hilarious, and not in a good way.

And again, the new game really isn't all that goofy, aside from a few visual jokes (I still think the Terminator 2 reference should've been a random thing, rather than the only lava death animation). For the most part the humour in the game is as dry as sandpaper. This is not Duke Nukem, and even less Far Cry: Blood Dragon. The complete lack of voice acting for the Doomslayer alone is enough to make sure of that.

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Doom 3 didn't take itself seriously, no. "Hello! I am Doctor Germanwordforbetrayer. I look and talk like the most stereotypical badguy I could be."

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40oz said:

Yeah the campaign of Ultimate Doom covers 36 different locations with a death toll of 2,000+

This doesn't seem like the behavior of someone who is just trying to survive. The dude is a righteous killing machine.


Given he (Classic Doom, anyway) was sent to Phobos because he assaulted his commanding officer after being ordered to shoot an unarmed civilian, he seems like the kinda guy who has a strong sense of justice. That would help to explain his hatred of the demons, demons represent all that is unholy and unjust, the antithesis to his core.

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I get why some of you see DoomGuy as this stoic, calm, collected guy who's just trying to do his job. I usually see him that way in my head, particularly in regards to the more horror-themed vibes of Doom 64, PSX Doom and Doom 3.

But c'mon, look at the boxart for both Doom 1 and 2. He's a fucking badass. And the endgame graphics for episodes 3 and 4 of Ultimate Doom really display how aggressive, bulky and scary he can be. We forget about this amidst the occultist imagery and dark shadows of the in-game graphics. Doomguy circa 2016 is very much a modern interpretation of those images.

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I think, unfortunately, Brutal Doom has contributed to this idea that Doomguy is this psycho-badass who loves killing and torturing demons. And that unfortunately has caused lots of people to think of Doomguy that way rather than the way Touchdown and also I viewed him in my earlier years of playing Doom. I like the idea of Doomguy being just a regular guy who is really good at killing demons but just does it to survive and to try to stop the invasion. To me, that makes him more relatable because that's how I would feel if I were in his position. I don't want to go to hell and I don't want to spend all my time killing demons and possibly get killed doing it, but I have to do it because that's the only thing that's going to save humanity and also save myself. Doomguy as some psycho-badass demon killing god is just totally unrelatable to me.

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GoatLord said:

But c'mon, look at the boxart for both Doom 1 and 2. He's a fucking badass.


I disagree with this. One of the reasons the 'updated' box art fails to capture the spirit of the original is that the Doomguy on display is clearly a super powerful badass that thrives in the chaos around him.

Look at the original art. He's not standing on the hill like Duke Nukem, smirking as he's shooting his enemies. He's trying to get away, swarmed by demons from all sides, potentially about to be pulled down by an Imp. There's even another marine running towards him to aid him.

Same thing with the DOOM2 box. A desolate city, Doomguy backed against a wall facing off against a freaking Cyberdemon alone with nothing but a shotgun.

He's badass but not in a battle-frenzy, blood-thristy way. He's badass because he keeps going, regardless of the odds. That's the difference I'm talking about.

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