Hour long interview with Hugo Martin via /noclip

[Edward850]

doom_is_great said:

I think, unfortunately, Brutal Doom has contributed to this idea that Doomguy is this psycho-badass who loves killing and torturing demons. And that unfortunately has caused lots of people to think of Doomguy that way rather than the way Touchdown and also I viewed him in my earlier years of playing Doom. I like the idea of Doomguy being just a regular guy who is really good at killing demons but just does it to survive and to try to stop the invasion. To me, that makes him more relatable because that's how I would feel if I were in his position. I don't want to go to hell and I don't want to spend all my time killing demons and possibly get killed doing it, but I have to do it because that's the only thing that's going to save humanity and also save myself. Doomguy as some psycho-badass demon killing god is just totally unrelatable to me.

None of that originates from Brutal Doom. In fact, Doom4's glory kill system doesn't even come from Brutal Doom either. (It's odd that I have to point out that video considering the thread you're posting in.)

[Koko Ricky]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the attitude and glory kill system was already in place, at least rudimentarily, by the time the dev team discovered Brutal Doom. And Touchdown, you're right, the Doom 1 and 2 box arts do indeed portray DoomGuy as being badass, but also vulnerable and always on the edge of being slain. However, In Doom '16, especially on harder difficulties, that feeling is there. Just think about how overpowered the imp is.

[TAPETRVE]

Doomguy's maniacal expression in the original games' HUD strongly disagrees. He's clearly enjoying himself. And why wouldn't he, he's a super-hairy hypermasculine action hero stereotype who punches demons with a fucking knuckleduster. If anything, the new iteration is by far less psychotic than the original. He's just fucking sick and tired of the whole bullshit surrounding him. Look at his glory kills; they are quick and to the point, nothing like Brutal Doom's slow-paced "Look, I'm a Roman gladiator!" executions, or e.g. the overly flashy, downright wasteful eviscerations from the Gears of War series, to take an example from a different franchise. And the joyless way he kicks his enemies around expresses contempt, not thrill.

[VGamingJunkie]

Edward850 said:

None of that originates from Brutal Doom. In fact, Doom4's glory kill system doesn't even come from Brutal Doom either. (It's odd that I have to point out that video considering the thread you're posting in.)

Sounds like they always had this idea of Doom Slayer being a badass running and ripping through prey, they simply got rid of the drab atmosphere that was holding it back and slapped cheese over it.

TAPETRVE said:

He's just fucking sick and tired of the whole bullshit surrounding him. Look at his glory kills; they are quick and to the point, nothing like Brutal Doom's slow-paced "Look, I'm a Roman gladiator!" executions, or e.g. the overly flashy, downright wasteful eviscerations from the Gears of War series, to take an example from a different franchise.

Doom Slayer is actually far less cruel than the Brutal Doom Guy, since Doom 2016 doesn't have Imps holding onto their own guts in agony until they bleed out. I'll be honest, that made me cringe more than anything else.

[Touchdown]

GoatLord said:

And Touchdown, you're right, the Doom 1 and 2 box arts do indeed portray DoomGuy as being badass, but also vulnerable and always on the edge of being slain. However, In Doom '16, especially on harder difficulties, that feeling is there. Just think about how overpowered the imp is.

I absolutely agree, I think I've even mentioned that earlier (or in the other thread) that thankfully the gameplay does not reflect the lore. For once I'm glad those two elements are not too closely tied together.

[doom_is_great]

Edward850 said:

None of that originates from Brutal Doom. In fact, Doom4's glory kill system doesn't even come from Brutal Doom either. (It's odd that I have to point out that video considering the thread you're posting in.)

I never said that Doom 4's glory kill system was inspired by Brutal Doom. Neither did I say that Brutal Doom was the sole inspiration of the psycho-badass interpretation of Doomguy. I said that it simply has CONTRIBUTED to the idea, and considering Brutal Doom's popularity not just in the Doom community but in the broader gaming community, it's undebatable that Brutal Doom has shifted people's views and interpretations on Doomguy and caused them to view him more as a psycho-badass rather than a lone survivor badass.

[Edward850]

doom_is_great said:

I said that it simply has CONTRIBUTED to the idea

Did it though? Because I'm pretty sure I just showed you two different sources that show the same idea, one of them older than some new users on these forums.

[Koko Ricky]

The glory kills just seem like a very efficient (albeit extremely gruesome) way to dispatch enemies. There's rage to it, yeah, but it seems more about "I need to get rid of them as fast as possible" as opposed to Brutal Doom, where at the attitude seems more like, "I'm a fucked up sadist that takes a little too much pleasure in killing."

[jazzmaster9]

Touchdown said:

Doomguy has never been god until DOOM4. In every other DOOM game he's just a marine that survives and retaliates. He's never been portrayed ....

....so People are complaining that Doom, a game with a ridiculous and over the top story has a ridiculous and over the top story? I'm surprised iD actually took the time and effort to satisfy People who want nothing more than A Doom 1 remake with 3d graphics.

[doom_is_great]

Edward850 said:

Did it though? Because I'm pretty sure I just showed you two different sources that show the same idea, one of them older than some new users on these forums.

Of course it did. I guarantee you that you more people in the gaming community know about Brutal Doom than the Doom comic.

And don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Id was inspired by Brutal Doom or that Brutal Doom is the reason Doom 4 is the way it is. I am talking about the impact that it's had on how gamers view Doomguy and who Doomguy is. That's it.

[Edward850]

doom_is_great said:

Of course it did. I guarantee you that you more people in the gaming community know about Brutal Doom than the Doom comic.

And don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Id was inspired by Brutal Doom or that Brutal Doom is the reason Doom 4 is the way it is. I am talking about the impact that it's had on how gamers view Doomguy and who Doomguy is. That's it.

It seems to be you completely misunderstanding me. I'll give you some food for thought: You can't become something you already are.

[MrDeAD1313]

I definitely get what you're saying here, Touchdown. Every bit of it. I remember imagining what Doom4 was going to be like before the e3 reveal and I would always get a darker, more labyrinth-style maps and drab atmosphere with a doomguy doing what had to be done to survive image in my head. Not that it's not what he's doing anyway, but the story angle was a lot different in my head as well. I do very much enjoy what we got, but I was always hoping for more classic story / gameplay reboot than anything. I hope this makes sense.

[Bauul]

TAPETRVE said:

aside from a few visual jokes (I still think the Terminator 2 reference should've been a random thing, rather than the only lava death animation).

It isn't the only lava death animation!

I died in lava a few times in my playthrough and never got the T2 reference animation. I was quite disappointed!

[VGamingJunkie]

jazzmaster9 said:

....so People are complaining that Doom, a game with a ridiculous and over the top story has a ridiculous and over the top story? I'm surprised iD actually took the time and effort to satisfy People who want nothing more than A Doom 1 remake with 3d graphics.

Honestly, when I heard in the third Doom Slayer testament that he was empowered by the Seraphim (Highest order of Angels) rather than just being some normal guy, I thought that was awesome. It makes sense, too, why should some ordinary guy be able to conquer Hell, especially when everyone else failed? I get it's supposed to be plot convenience but there's no reason he specifically should have done what nobody else could if there's nothing special about him, it's not like he's the only Marine in existence. Angels giving him power makes a lot more sense than... he got lucky?

[Koko Ricky]

jazzmaster9 said:

....so People are complaining that Doom, a game with a ridiculous and over the top story has a ridiculous and over the top story? I'm surprised iD actually took the time and effort to satisfy People who want nothing more than A Doom 1 remake with 3d graphics.

My problem with Doom 16's story was that I wasn't invested in it. I'm not a huge fan of Doom 3's plot, but I found myself genuinely interested in what was going on. I think this was because the cutscenes were shorter, and most of the story was revealed through brief e-mails, really nicely produced video clips, and the occasional audio log. Doom '16 puts a bit too much emphasis on trying to cram this information into the cutscenes, or through codexes which are really just text walls. That kills the pacing and as a result I had very little interest in what was going on.

[VGamingJunkie]

You can't have it both ways, though. Doom 3 was so involved in its own plot and took itself so seriously that it didn't have that Doom charm to it. Hugo outright said that Doom Slayer shoving the monitor away is symbolic as they're throwing story to the sideline in favor of gameplay.

[RobotJoe]

and yet they occasionally lock the player in a room and force them to listen to a character spew exposition.

[jazzmaster9]

RobotJoe said:

and yet they occasionally lock the player in a room and force them to listen to a character spew exposition.

Yeah for like 20 seconds.
Compare that to a regular cinematic game... yeah not so long now is it.

[RobotJoe]

jazzmaster9 said:

Yeah for like 20 seconds.
Compare that to a regular cinematic game... yeah not so long now is it.

damn.. you got me...

Though pretty sure you're sitting around for more than 20 seconds where you get your first argent cell or when you are in hayden's office waiting for him to slowly deliver his lines. If story was so unimportant they should have given u the option to pry those doors open and skip the shitty exposition. Cutscenes might be few and far between but they're still annoying.

[VGamingJunkie]

They probably wanted to give you just enough information to understand what you're doing without going overboard with it. They wanted a story to still be there, just not center stage.

[ChickenOrBeef]

RobotJoe said:

and yet they occasionally lock the player in a room and force them to listen to a character spew exposition.

That happened about three times throughout a 12 hour game.

If people are complaining about three cut-scenes that amount to about 5-8 minutes, then that shows how well executed DOOM actually was.

[Enforcer]

Although DOOM 2016 wasn't as perfect as I expected it to be (maybe because I was too fucking hyped) but it was close and it was one hell of a shooter! And I respect what this game does! Easily the best shooter of the past decade. And iD really created one hell of a formula in terms of combat. It just feels so good and TIGHT! I'm really glad DOOM was very well received by critics and what is more important by old school DOOM fans. And overall it's considered a huge success! It's obvious we will see DOOM 2 in the near future and I can't wait to see what iD will come up with next! Fuck DLC! Get busy with the next game! :) I CAN'T FUCKING WAIT FOR DOOM 2! ! ! !

[dsm]

jazzmaster9 said:

Yeah for like 20 seconds.
Compare that to a regular cinematic game... yeah not so long now is it.

Pretty irrelevant considering they try to set the tone of "fuck off with the story, lemme kill things".

The fact that conventional cinematic games are a lot worse in this regard should not be an excuse. If anything, I think it's time that crap shoved off and First-Person-shooters started letting players actually play the damned game instead of just watching them.

[jazzmaster9]

dsm said:

Pretty irrelevant considering they try to set the tone of "fuck off with the story, lemme kill things".

The fact that conventional cinematic games are a lot worse in this regard should not be an excuse. If anything, I think it's time that crap shoved off and First-Person-shooters started letting players actually play the damned game instead of just watching them.

And that is exactly what the cutscenes convey. "OH your gonna give exposition? Fuck this im Out" *cutsecen ends.
You have to give context somehow. They mixed it up with short cutscenes and enviromental story telling.

[VGamingJunkie]

They still wanted to tell a story, just a very cheesy and self aware story that realized how absurd it is. If they never had any kind of cutscene or exposition, it probably wouldn't have looked as professional. On the plus side, the view never leaves first person, much like Valve's games, so the sense of immersion is never broken in favor of cinematics.

[TAPETRVE]

In Valve's games you are in control of your character even during cutscenes. Here there are plenty of instances where you're completely passive, or the camera even zooms elsewhere for cinematic effect. It works well enough in the short scenes where e.g. new enemies are introduced via snap zoom, but the part where you're shut in a room with Hayden's talking head for two minutes of quite boring exposition is easily the most annoying scene in the game. Not because it is particularly tedious on its own, but because it sticks out from the rest of the game like a sore dick with a priapism.

[VGamingJunkie]

There are times in Valve's games where you lose control over your character. Portal 2 has at least two moments and Half-Life 2 has at least 3. I'm only going by the ones I remember, too.

[Sig]

TAPETRVE said:

In Valve's games you are in control of your character even during cutscenes. Here there are plenty of instances where you're completely passive, or the camera even zooms elsewhere for cinematic effect. It works well enough in the short scenes where e.g. new enemies are introduced via snap zoom, but the part where you're shut in a room with Hayden's talking head for two minutes of quite boring exposition is easily the most annoying scene in the game. Not because it is particularly tedious on its own, but because it sticks out from the rest of the game like a sore dick with a priapism.

It was interesting enough the first time around to finally meet the robot guy.

On top of that there were interesting things in his office to look at. (story 'clues')

I'd say it was ultimately a necessary story point.

Or, wait, they should have just shown some cheesy text on the screen as you then teleport to the next location. Yeah! Muh childhood>everything! Wooooo!

[Error2k]

Touchdown said:

Well, like I said before, generally I'm not bothered by that in DOOM4 except for those selected moments with the lore where they go too far, in my opinion. I can absolutly enjoy the general theme but I don't need the game screaming at every opportunity how it's not taking itself too seriously. In my book that crosses the line of trying too hard and it gets too silly.

There are those little things in games that annoy me in that regard, like in Portal 2. I can mostly just enjoy the ride without overthinking it but every now and then there's something so ridiculous that it's just stupid (like the fluid that temporarily turns blood into gasoline).

But you can say this pretty much about any action movie / game protagonist, no? Such games are primarily focused on combat, thus the body count is high. We might as well start questioning health pick ups.

Besides, if you're trying to survive but there's a horde of demons in front of you, are you going to say "well, as a survivor it's not ok for me to kill that many living things so I'll just lie down and die"? The point I'm making is that yes, he kills a lot of demons but he does that because he has to in order to survive. Not because he enjoys it and not because that's his sole purpose in life, like in DOOM4.

I think games should find the right balance between gameplay elements being fun and not exaggerating the lore supporting it. Not everything has to be explained because we can suspend our disbelief. Yeah, health pack are unrealistic but their existance won't bother anyone... unless you go out of your way to explain them. BioShock1 made that mistake where they wanted everything to be explained and it made it a bit silly at the end.

In DOOM4 folks at id have noticed that Doomguy kills a lot of demons so they decided to 'call it what it is' and I don't think that was neccessary. Suddenly he's a god and his armor was created in forges of Hell and there's an angel looking over him and he's immortal and he's been wrecking havoc in Hell for eons... I mean, seriously?

I'd prefer him to be what he's always been in my eyes, kind of a badass survivor. Yes, he kicks major ass and he's awesome but fundamentally he only does what he has to do. Again, that's what I see in the Fight Like Hell trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSZ4tSoumNk

I agree with you. I never liked superhero characters in videogames. DOOM 3 and classic doomguy were better. Also player death animations don't really make sense now. How can one imp tear out guts of immortal superhero with argent energy covering his skin (as we learn in codex)?

[jazzmaster9]

quxxo said:

I agree with you. I never liked superhero characters in videogames. DOOM 3 and classic doomguy were better. Also player death animations don't really make sense now. How can one imp tear out guts of immortal superhero with argent energy covering his skin (as we learn in codex)?

Even the OG Doomguy was a super hero; He ran as fast as a bike, carried 8 guns, can fall of high elevations without breaking any bones, yet can succumb to a Revenant Punch to the face.

Doom never made any sense, and the way Doom 2016 tried to give it sense was very tongue-and-cheek.