Just a waste of time to read this :P

[Memfis]

A sad state of affairs:
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?p=968587#p968587
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=54952

Guys, please treat these people with a little more care... They are the backbone of our community.

[Filystyn]

Always fun to read drama. Thx.

Been some time I was there. Still many unactivated accounts waiting to awaken. Hue.

[40oz]

No memfis is right, I see most people are easy to overlook all the huge gains we've had from people in the community and focus too strongly on negatives. Everyone in this community who contributes a handy tool or a playable and fun project is being super selfless, none of us have any other incentive to do it beside an outright and unconditional love for the game.

We really should be more thankful for the people who are here and actively contributing. This community isn't going to stay good forever this way.

[wildweasel]

The events around those threads are, honestly, a bit disappointing. I wish the internet at large fostered more of a culture of respect, and that criticism could be less abrasive. Many users in the thread have been very polite, but it's the handful that weren't that are arguably the biggest cause of the problem. Some people feel the need to be jerks, to exaggerate the issues they're having so they'll be noticed. Because, sad as it is, few things get more attention than overblown attacks and ad hominem. Mutual respect is extremely important in a relatively tight-knit community like ours, and there just wasn't a lot of that going around in those threads.

That said, MaxED is well within his rights to stop work on GZDB. I just wish he hadn't done it in a way that suggests he's stamped his feet and slammed the door on the way out.

[esselfortium]

Oh damn, I hope MaxED comes back. :(

[Use]

WildWeasel said:

...Many users in the thread have been very polite, but it's the handful that weren't that are arguably the biggest cause of the problem....

That said, MaxED is well within his rights to stop work on GZDB. I just wish he hadn't done it in a way that suggests he's stamped his feet and slammed the door on the way out.

That's really what it boils down to. Most adults know you can't control the reactions of others, including rude people. Someone said the new texture interface was 'horrible'? Is that it? Jesus someone better call the cops. If it wasn't this infraction, it would be some other minor gripe that would have driven him off. Obviously the editor is super popular so maybe it needs to be in the hands of someone a little more emotionally mature.

FWIW I like the new texture browser, it looks like DeepSea's. :P

[wildweasel]

Yeah, and historically speaking, this has been far from the only time he's acted out in such a way. But that's the thing about mutual respect - by definition, it should go both ways.

[Reisal]

Use3D said:

FWIW I like the new texture browser, it looks like DeepSea's. :P

Not too fond of the new one, seems a bit clunky.

[Doomkid]

I'm gonna have to echo Use3D on this one - some people out there who give feedback are going to be assholes about it, just a fact of life. You can take it in stride or you can get upset and let it fuck up your creative endeavour entirely and make you look thin-skinned and frankly childish to boot. Imagine if every wad/mod maker reacted this way to negative criticism? Hardly anything would ever get released!

I know literally nothing about the guy. Hopefully he was just feeling vulnerable that day and will continue to work on GZDB. If not, that's his loss as much as anyone else's.

[Mechadon]

Well this sucks. It was nice having an editor that was constantly being updated, and GZDB definitely has many features that I love. So I definitely have to thank MaxEd for that. I do wish he was a bit better with dealing criticism and requests, but oh well. Hopefully he just needs some time to cool down :/

[everennui]

Wow! A lot of tough guys over at ZDoom. Saying MaxED is selfish and other dumb shit. MaxED has always seemed like a cool guy to me. I know he has helped me in the past and I've saw him help others. People say things when they get angry. Do we really need this many forum posts over someone getting annoyed. Seems like it's just fueling a fire. It doesn't even really sound like he was 100% serious and now this whole drama started to spill over here. Is Leafy here? Programmers aren't a dime a dozen, so maybe we'd all benefit if we kept in mind that these people sacrifice a chunk of their lives to let us play and modify our favorite game.

I don't like the way the texture picker doesn't put the commonly used on the top, but I made it work for me. I've found a lot of times that I don't know what I'm talking about, so maybe it has its benefits, but I'm not seeing it yet.

Didn't he say something like, 'tell me what you don't like about it?'

In every facet of this community is a person or two who just wants to be rude. Then there are people who don't need to try it just comes off as rude. People are reactionaries and a lot of the time people don't have the time to think first.

Yes. Let's be less jagged with our criticism.

There are people who are throwing sucker punches at Max who think they are being clever, but we can see it. It's like the guy on the side that says, "you gonna let him talk to you like that." Anyone who puts their free time into Doom should be appreciated not showcased and gas lighted.

Come back, Max! You are important and appreciated.

[Linguica]

I'm on MaxEd's side. He doesn't owe anyone the constant stream of free updates and new features he's churned out over the years, and if the stress of dealing with complaints is outweighing the satisfaction and enjoyment of the project, then I'm glad he's quitting.

[40oz]

Doomkid said:

I'm gonna have to echo Use3D on this one - some people out there who give feedback are going to be assholes about it, just a fact of life.

Please note that many of the people on the MaxED side have carried large burdens of responsibility for minimal personal gains. The be more accepting of criticism argument is fine in most circumstances but you should also be cognizant of the people delivering this kind of criticism, often people who haven't created much for the community, and use the internet liberally as a source of fun, fast, easy and free products.

When a community seems to be saturated with people who are expecting utmost professionalism from someone who consistently acts on his labor of love for nothing in return, it makes a lot of people with ambitious ideas question if the work is worth pursuing. I ask myself this question sometimes when i think of a good idea for a wad. Is anyone even going to like it? If I dont pay extraordinary attention to texture alignment is it even worth the time? etc. etc.

[Fonze]

This is a major shame and I hope MaxEd comes back, but it is more of a shame to see a major dev in our community pick up and go to this. I think we should keep in mind that our community consists of mostly, if not totally, nerds, most nerds also not being famous for their social skills. But for someone in his position, being the developer of a tool, there is an added consumer base: craftsmen. So you get nerd-craftsmen focused on production with the power of immediately posting their thoughts on their new tool; it's a recipe for posts like those seen. How many craftsmen do any of us know that don't say the harshest comments on their tools when they get a brand new tool that fails to not only live up to expectations, but to even be as productive as the old tool/way of doing things? Couple that with poor social skills and the ability to actually say it to the person that makes it at that immediate time they think those thoughts... it's like a perfect recipe.

I don't want to defend rude comments; there is no excuse for a lack of exercising basic social skills, but rude comments are to be expected in such scenarios, as unfortunate as it may be. The biggest thanks is given through actions, not words; GZDB has paved its way to be hands-down the best map editor and this is shown from the amount of people that both use it and swear by it. That is also the best thanks that can be given by the community.

That all said, nobody is irreplaceable, much like at our jobs. It'll hurt for a while, but the hole always gets filled. Many people still use DB2, myself included, though admittedly for myself it's just because I'm too bass ackwards to upgrade past the mid-2000's. Still, the point exists that other great editors are out there and much like GZDB to DB2, a fork can be made and actively maintained by somebody new. If MaxEd truly has left it's a major shame and the community will feel it, but what a way to leave for a valued member of the community. Hopefully people learn from this.

[Memfis]

Well, apparently ZZYZX already made a fork. Let's see how it goes.

[Doomkid]

lol just so people don't take me the wrong way, I was feeling kinda shitty when I wrote the above post. I'd hate for the guy to abandon it hastily only to later realize morons will be morons and you can't let them sour something you love. On the flipside though, if he genuinely is over it, he should definitely not let it act as a shackle. Free content is only worth making if you're getting enjoyment out of it!

[fraggle]

40oz said:

We really should be more thankful for the people who are here and actively contributing. This community isn't going to stay good forever this way.

This has been an issue the entire life of the Doom community. Even back when Lee Killough left in 1999 he wrote a huge long essay and one of the quotes was from someone who said "We don't give a shit about 'Lee the person', so long as we have his web pages and his other work".

I've always been a fan of the Cacowards but they only really apply to people making levels and other mods / creative works. It's a strange state of affairs that we (rightly) honor the people making all that great stuff but there's no "Cacoward for technical contribution" for people making source ports or tooling. Maybe it's because the pool of candidates is too small? But source ports and editors are the foundations that everyone else stands on to make their stuff.

[printz]

Not surprising. With the amount of productivity he has been showing, sooner or later the burnout comes. Same about Graf Zahl when he was threatening to quit GZDoom.

[40oz]

fraggle said:

I've always been a fan of the Cacowards but they only really apply to people making levels and other mods / creative works. It's a strange state of affairs that we (rightly) honor the people making all that great stuff but there's no "Cacoward for technical contribution" for people making source ports or tooling. Maybe it's because the pool of candidates is too small? But source ports and editors are the foundations that everyone else stands on to make their stuff.

I think you're right in feeling this way but I think this has recently been addressed with the lifetime achievement/espi award which was added in the past couple additions. All the mentionations for Randy Heit this year should be evidence of that, and that makes me happy.

[Memfis]

But how many mentions Randy got before the announcement that she is quitting? Isn't it a little bit late now?

[fraggle]

40oz said:

I think you're right in feeling this way but I think this has recently been addressed with the lifetime achievement/espi award

Right, but a couple of issues. Firstly: the level of contribution needed to be awarded an Espi Award is probably at least a decade of sustained work in various different areas (all the people who have been awarded Espi Awards have been around for this long, I think). Consider that the Cacowards go out of their way to recognize "promising newcomers" in mapping for example - why shouldn't we do the same for people making technical contributions too? We should really be encouraging new people to contribute to coding projects, and it would be good to have something with a lower barrier for recognition.

The other thing is that a while back I heard rumours of some pushback from people who don't want the Espi Award to become "the source port author award". I think this is perfectly understandable - it was never established for that purpose, and we should be recognizing all different people who deserve that award - whether they've written source ports, acted as community leaders, made large artistic contributions, and so on.

To be clear I think an Espi Award for Randi would be an appropriate send-off for this year to honor her work. But I'd also rather there was a distinct award for technical contribution so that we honor and encourage all the other people making technical contributions to the Doom community, without them needing to slave away for years to be deemed worthy of recognition.

[Linguica]

fraggle said:

But I'd also rather there was a distinct award for technical contribution so that we honor and encourage all the other people making technical contributions to the Doom community, without them needing to slave away for years to be deemed worthy of recognition.

Are you volunteering to write it??

[40oz]

^ yeah I suspect this is probably the case only because the people writing the cacowards aren't really qualified to recognize its beauty. I dont really know anything about programming or writing scripting languages or compiling libraries (this post alone exposes the peak of the knowledge I have, there isn't much more to my understanding than that.)

Occasionally ill see posts about how brutal doom is wanky because it uses code snagged from other projects and I have no idea how to participate in that sort of argument. I dont know how the programming community feels about sharing code, if its good or bad, or what the difference between efficient code or sloppy code. I really have no idea what's going on under the hood of these cars. Being as though I can have pretty vivid discussions about doom wads with most people here, id assume that most people here are in the same camp as me.

[dew]

I wholly sympathize with fraggle's reasoning, but it comes with some deliberation. Espi was not meant to be the programmer's award, it's just "a coincidence" that there's a string of high-profile programmers deserving to be awarded for their long-standing community service. If Randi gets an Espi, it's not because she's a programmer, it's because of the profound legacy left behind.

On the other hand, someone like MaxED obviously doesn't qualify for Espi (just yet), but his crazy coding romp that makes even grizzled veterans migrate to GZDB is certainly worth a nod. But do we create a Best Programmer Award? Probably not. There was some talk about the best art award for non-mapper contributors, but it fell under the table, because the idea was undercooked and there was no guarantee every year would have someone truly worth singling out just for "art". Same at the coding side, imagine having to award Graf Zahl three years in a row or something. :)

So what should we do? Start a non-specific category for An Outstanding Performance? Or maybe a sidebar writeup would be enough, the way I gave a nod to the TNS crowd two years back? Or maybe GZDB should be, um, nominated for a Cacoward? It goes without saying that 40oz is also right. You cannot expect the band of hacks currently running the show to have the insight necessary to recognize coding excellence, heh.

[Soundblock]

dew said:

Start a non-specific category for An Outstanding Performance?

Not a bad idea.

[Linguica]

[kb1]

You honor the coders, map authors, texture artists, musicians, etc, by using their products, and by showing them respect. Telling someone that their texture editor is "horrible" because of a 1-pixel outline drawn around the textures is horrible, in and of itself.

While it may do MaxEd some good to "toughen-up", he is not obligated to do so. He's done ample work already, and he's paid his dues. It was the community's moral responsibility to treat him with respect, if they use his products, or even if not.

"Design-by-Committee" rarely works well, cause you can't please everyone. You can try, though. For software, sometimes that entails adding tons of option dialogs and tweaks everywhere. But that tends to make programs harder to maintain, and fragile. Worse, it takes the burden off of the programmer to build it right to begin with. Some advice for MaxEd: Build it the way you believe is right. If you're not sure, ask one or two veteran map authors what is appropriate, vs. the whole community. The veterans know what's important, and they'll build great things with your program.

I can understand the case for the outlines: Having the outline allows you to pack more textures with text on the screen. The outline groups the texture and the text into one logical unit. Without it, you'd need to separate the textures further apart, to prevent it from looking jumbled. Personally, I'd like to see an animated background, to distinguish between white pixels, and empty space behind transparent holes in textures. Possibly, the outlines could be replaced by alternating background colors, which would serve the purpose of distinguishing between textures.

For the non-programmers out there: Most every design choice in any given program was arrived at, based on dozens of usually conflicting decisions. Each major feature affects those around it, sometimes in non-intuitive ways. So if you want to question the programmer on a certain decision, you had better be able to understand the entire problem, including all of the other conflicts that were solved by going with a certain solution.

By the way, what's the big deal about the program using X Gb of memory? It uses what it needs, and every OS since the 90's handles paging and virtual memory quite admirably. Who cares, if it does the job? Using that memory might make it run faster. Or maybe the program is much more stable if it is not doing behind-the-scenes "magic" trying to be lean on memory. If it doesn't pop up "Out of Memory" errors, what's the big deal? Sounds like a vacant reason to bitch about nothing. If your PC cannot handle it, maybe invest in a PC built this century...

Above all, before you type the first word on your keyboard, imagine that you are standing in front of the person you are getting ready to direct your text at. If you wouldn't say it in front of him, don't type it in a forum.

All MaxEd wanted was some respect, and possibly some praise, in return for his many hours doing real work. He's not charging you anything for that hard work, but it's not completely free. Pay up by saying a nice word every now and then, providing meaningful bug reports, asking for desired enhancements, and treating him with some basic human respect. Or stop using his products. And that goes for everyone - the producers, and the consumers. Know which one you are, and act accordingly, please.

[dew]

kb1 said:

Some advice for MaxEd: Build it the way you believe is right.

I just have to ask. Was this the mentality behind automating sr50 without a toggle option, making everyone who speedruns on new prboom-plus versions a cheater?

[Graf Zahl]

kb1 said:

All MaxEd wanted was some respect, and possibly some praise,

On the other hand, if the reaction to a change you make is overwhelmingly and strongly negative, you don't say "Fuck you" and actually start the shitstorm.

If you make a big change, be prepared to defend it with solid reasoning. As much as the situation went out of hand, MaxEd has to take quite a bit of the blame himself.

I remember a few years back in ZDoom, Randi made a quite drastic change to how the sound system works. The result was a strong backlash with a nearly unanimous opinion that it was a bad change. Had Randi said "Fuck you" at that point it would have meant the end of ZDoom for sure because the shitstorm would have been inevitable. But the whole thing ended without drama, having the code mostly restored a few days after - and everybody was happy.

[Decay]

Memfis said:

Well, apparently ZZYZX already made a fork. Let's see how it goes.

I wouldn't trust anything alien overlord creates. PWO memory leaks, shit person, shit code. You going to trust someone who posted code for DDoSing the Zan forums ON the Zan forums? Come on now. This clown is one of the biggest dipshits around.