Gameplay Discussion and Map Design

[Voros]

Map18 and 26 were removed. Guess you were right Graf.

I've mastered map30, so it's not impossible. Just as annoying as Doom 2's map30.

[Four Loko Is Gross]

chungy said:

It's very possible, just have to time your rockets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dts6GqZ2hO0
https://chungy.keybase.pub/freedoom/map30.lmp

Map 30 seems to be the most obvious "homage" to the original map of all.

And I also had a hard time with timing my rockets. It seemed easier to just idclip over to the IoS and blow it up.

As an idea (which can be ignored), why not try something a little different, like keeping the map mostly as is, but add a hidden door around the side that allows FreedoomGuy to go through a narrow passage and up some stairs to the back of the IoS, where he can then punch it to death. Obviously, the passageway would need monsters to avoid making it super easy.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

I am having trouble getting the last secret in C1M6.

I got the Overdrive sphere, the Berserk pack and the Backpack/Chainsaw, but I have no idea how to get the final one. I suspect it is located behind the second door inside the room with the Berserk pack, but I cannot get it to open.

Any help, please?

[Voros]

Good time to mention this.
Dragonfly submitted a map once: http://joshuaosullivan.co.uk/misc/MAP08-Dragonfly-AquaTech-Vanilla.wad
It needs some edits due to it using Aquatex liquid flats, which don't exist in Freedoom. Slot is map08

Edit: i can see the resemblance in the starting room of map21, but I don't think it looks that familiar. In fact, I believe it's fine. This feels more like a homage than a ripoff to me. It's not like id software has a copyright on square rooms lined with health items.

[Catoptromancy]

Catoptromancy said:

Noone has mentioned C3M1.

Since there is id homages/remakes being removed at the moment. Does anyone else see this map is obviously a remake of e3m1.

[Voros]

Yes I see it. The shotgun trap, the imp room before the exit, the exit, the spectre/pinky corridors.
I just never bothered to think "its just an e3m1 remake". I blame Blueworrior's music. But the really issue is getting the maps to replace them.

[Graf Zahl]

There's definitely some references, but not nearly as strong as in the other maps that have been mentioned.

[Voros]

IMO, it's pretty strong, but seems to be overlooked for some reason. It might be because the reference is well hidden, and players won't see the reference directly unless they think about it for a second. It's a good map, some small changes would make less homagey.

[grommile]

I'd guess that most people are probably focusing on the fact that C3M1 is a knife fight in a phone booth, which E3M1 isn't really.

[Jayextee]

Four Loko Is Gross said:

As an idea (which can be ignored), why not try something a little different, like keeping the map mostly as is, but add a hidden door around the side that allows FreedoomGuy to go through a narrow passage and up some stairs to the back of the IoS, where he can then punch it to death. Obviously, the passageway would need monsters to avoid making it super easy.

If I ever got to making 30 (32) maps for Nex Credo, as was the original intent, I was going to have a monster-only MARBFACE teleporter in a short maze; the idea being to lure a critter through the short maze to this teleporter and telefrag the icon head.

I was going to display the aim at the beginning of the map with a monster who would walk over a similar teleporter and telefrag a nearby barrel in the void next to another icon head; not enough to kill, just enough to make the icon's pain sound and inform the player what the aim was.

Furthermore, I was also going to have the 'traditional' Icon of Sin aim there, with raising platform and rockets-into-brain, but this would've killed a Keen and opened up a Cyberdemon cache to the left and right of the big ZZZFACE. Bad luck, bro.

---

Fresh enough for any mappers here (bit busy myself right now)?

[Four Loko Is Gross]

I like that idea.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Currently playing Freedoom with Contra Doom. I was a bit worried there would be a conflict, but so far, so good!

[Catoptromancy]

MAP29 should be MAP31 in its current form. Actually MAP29 needs remade. There are too many technical doom engine things that need exploited or known about to properly play. Demons block player on lift house from jumping. It is hard to see where to jump anyway without freelook. The lava run. Not sure how many people charge into lava when there is no visible place to safely stand. Much like the secret maps, the map needs to be suicidally explored to get a feel for what actually to do. Punching demons, grabbing ssg, just ends up with no ammo while there is a hefty swarm still alive. Telefragging everything gets tedious. Hopping into teleporter to draw away demons or cacos. Forcing imp infighting with cacos. And the old fashioned, trying not to shoot for as long as possible to not wake the monster closets. The gameplay heavily relies on suicide exploring and manipulating doom physics. I still love this map.

This map is on the Limit Removing list. It needs split in half or a third. Walls/fly-over-mountains need built to make it vanilla. I think this map can have a much more straight forward gameplay, while remaining hectic and open to explore.

[Jayextee]

Catoptromancy said:

Since there is id homages/remakes being removed at the moment. Does anyone else see this map is obviously a remake of e3m1.

Dunno if you want a new C3M1? I just put one together if you're interested.

A bit milder an experience than the current one, less homage-y overall, but still of a vaugely-similar feel. Dark, but bright where it matters. Early cacodemon/trilobite for a short sharp shock. MP/DM starts and difficulty settings, only the latter tested.

IMO, transitions nicely into the existing C3M2 as well. :)

[Graf Zahl]

I find that one a lot better than the current version. It should be replaced for quality alone.

[grommile]

Jayextee said:

Dunno if you want a new C3M1? I just put one together if you're interested.

Definitely an improvement!

Small hiccup: I suggest raising the ceilings of sectors 33 and 34 by at least 8 units, since at present they can cause a nasty movement interruption because their ceilings are only 48 units below the ceilings of sectors 26 and 27.

[Jayextee]

Can do. (In fact, have done but am waiting just in case there are more tweak suggestions before uploading a new version for such a tiny change)

Was also thinking on making the exit area GSTONE (to better match up with the beginning of C3M2)? Avoided it initially because I'm not very keen on mixing the green and red brick textures (even though I've done so in a couple of recent maps of my own, whoops).

[Catoptromancy]

New C3M1 looks great! Will fit perfectly.

[Four Loko Is Gross]

Jayextee said:

Can do. (In fact, have done but am waiting just in case there are more tweak suggestions before uploading a new version for such a tiny change)

Was also thinking on making the exit area GSTONE (to better match up with the beginning of C3M2)? Avoided it initially because I'm not very keen on mixing the green and red brick textures (even though I've done so in a couple of recent maps of my own, whoops).

Maybe add a shotgun or something early in the level?

Aside from that, it's an improvement over the other map. :)

I like how Freedoom got a little bit more active since the release of 0.11. (A 0.11.1 release with the HUD fix should be released fairly soon, though, since it's probably safe to say that might turn some people off, as it affects mods. Obviously other point releases can still be released. And on a related note, while official 0.X releases probably need time to, uh, cook in the oven, I think 0.X.Y releases should be made more frequently, like maybe once every 2-3 months. If there is active development, of course.)

[Jayextee]

Four Loko Is Gross said:

Maybe add a shotgun or something early in the level?

Try skills 1 or 2, it's there in the first pool of blood.

I'll fess up. I love Doom's E3M1 and the idea that you can't really stay and fight the first encounter, you gotta run get better tools first. So I did that too. Hell, there probably isn't even enough ammo to UV-max the thing because of that early Berzerk pack. ;)

[Four Loko Is Gross]

I saw this a minute ago:

gnudist said:

Trapped between a tree and a rock near a slime waterfall in c1m1 after going off a cliff. Weeee

There is a "cement" pillar and a tree that prevents the player from escaping. Maybe space them further apart?

[Voros]

New c3m1 is much better.
FDA: https://www.doomworld.com/vb/attachment.php?postid=1719610
Died two times (the second death was because I was trying to see if I could just rush to the exit asap)
The ceiling height should be higher for the parts with the stimpack showns during the two way entrance, as it is bit uncomfortable.

You really should do one for c3m5, then chapter 3 will be complete.

gnudist said:

Trapped between a tree and a rock near a slime waterfall in c1m1 after going off a cliff. Weeee

That happened to me too once, but I got out without IDCLIP somehow. It'll be fixed.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

I noticed on C1M7 that there is one enemy - a Worm - that remains hidden in a small cubic space that does not appear to be accessible without using noclip.

http://imgur.com/a/bwAWD

[Four Loko Is Gross]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

I noticed on C1M7 that there is one enemy - a Worm - that remains hidden in a small cubic space that does not appear to be accessible without using noclip.

http://imgur.com/a/bwAWD

You seem quite bloodthirsty, my friend. It's harmless if it can't get out. ;)

VVVVV - I like D4D, but the one thing that really bugs me about it is the lack of autoswitching, in terms of weapons. That's the one thing that drives me nuts in mods like Brutal Doom. When the rifle is out of ammo, and there are no magazines left, why is DoomGuy not switching to another weapon. And of course, there's the static rifle, which doesn't belong in singleplayer mode at all. Unless you are playing in God Mode, and you have time to tap through buttons zero through one while being boxed in by ten plus enemies. With a HUD that doesn't tell you what weapons you have, or how much ammo is available for any of them.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

What can I say? When it comes to Doom, I am a completionist.

Also, I do not understand why would one enemy remain hidden. Plus it might get problematic with a mod like D4D, where achieving 100% skills does matter.

[chungy]

Mapping errors happen :p

[Four Loko Is Gross]

chungy said:

Mapping errors happen :p

*gasp*

You were my idol... my god... and you allowed this to happen?

I think I'm going to have to leave the Church of chungy and find my own way in life.

[LexiMax]

Here are some of my gameplay observations about MAP04 and MAP05 that I mentioned on IRC a week or two ago, speaking as somebody who tried playing it through from MAP01 on on HMP. I went back today with Godmode and a screenshot key to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Also, keep in mind that this is just my-opinion.txt

MAP04



This is very odd. There are a few lost souls in the very first area, but then they're never seen again in non-UV skill levels.



This area is kind of an inelegant eyesore. I understand what it's going for, but the texturing is bleh and two switches per 'area' just so you can backtrack and reactivate the down elevator - it seems like it could be better implemented with one-way drops, and something to differentiate each of the "pods", maybe a different color in each pod.



This area is WAY too tight and vertical. If you're playing a port without freelook, the pictured imps can wail on you from above for free. Even if you made those imps deaf or whatever, if the fight following the lift involves you having to fall back down the lift, you encounter the same problem.



This entire room could have been done better. I see the MAP04 homage, but the shooting gallery feels like it's the wrong way around - the two shooting gallery areas that are facing the hidden doors feel useless. I really like the ending fight with the two arachnotrons I think, and the flood of demons is an okay conceit, but I still feel like the room could use an improvement.



Given the next level, I feel like a normal exit with a switch would be more appropriate here. Also, even if the portal was appropriate here, it looks _really_ odd, bulging out on one side like it does.

MAP05



I never liked the looks of "stair ladders" like this. I feel like "hut" area would be much cooler backed up, lowered, and embedded in the rockface, as opposed to high up on top of a rock like this.



This is the other reason the "hut" doesn't work high up like it is, right after opening the blue door. Without freelook, you can't look down and see the demons in the pit. You can even hit your head on the bars if you move fast enough.



Could a brother get a light or a lighter texture or something on this elevator?



This consturction is odd. It gives the impression that it's a secret you can jump onto, yet after a few attempts I noclipped up there to see nothing on top of it. Examining it in Doom Builder shows that it's actually impassible.

[Four Loko Is Gross]

AlexMax said:

Also, keep in mind that this is just my-opinion.txt

You have no idea how long some of us have been complaining about some of these things, with literally no response from the Freedoom team.

Or, with responses like this:

grommile said:

Some people don't think vanilla/limit-removing mappers should care how people who leave jumping turned on ruin their own fun.

Literally shit-tastic responses. For over a decade.

To be fair, I actually approve of the move towards vanilla/chocolate maps, as that increases the likelihood that people will actually use Freedoom. The average user does NOT want huge fucking mazelike maps with key hunts that make no sense (I know some of you grew up in the era where PC games had puzzle games like that, and so did I, but I hated them even then. Does nobody else hate the feeling of spending an hour or so (or more) trying to figure something out, only to realize that something you missed in the first five minute of the game damned you to the "bad ending" or a complete restart?).

[JohnnyTheWolf]

chungy said:

Mapping errors happen :p

You are welcome!