Gameplay Discussion and Map Design

Out of curiosity, what happened to the original C1M1? I personally think it was perfect for a first level. The new one, while decent, is a bit confusing to naviguate and its monster population (which includes several Worms and many "Imps" on Extreme Carnage) strikes me as a bit excessive.

Additionally, on my first attempt, I did not realise the brown wall to the right of the impaled monster was supposed to be a door, so I went down the elevator instead and, without the Shotgun, I ran out of bullets by the time I reached the large outdoor area.

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The original C1M1 had very many boom features, original author would rather it be preserved on idgames than made vanilla.

I will touch up C1M1 quite a bit/lot. That door doesnt look much like a door either. Outside area and general flow is perfect, but still needs a good make over.

Documenting random bug report.

Spoiler

<cc_> hey c2m2 is still bugged
<cc_> the monsters don't spawn and the bugged texture is still there
<cc_> red key room

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JohnnyTheWolf said:

(...) I personally think it was perfect for a first level. The new one, while decent, is a bit confusing to naviguate and its monster population (...) strikes me as a bit excessive.


While i agree that Starport has a better level 1 feel, Outer Prison has a more interesting design and is more fun to play (and kinda easier too, since you have more projectile-based foes rather than hitscanners). The old c1m1 has some things that bothers me too, like the secret that requires a unnecessary backtrack and that strangely empty sewer area. Personally, i think the new c1m1 is very good the way it is and don't need any changes, but.. polishing is always welcome.

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JohnnyTheWolf said:

Out of curiosity, what happened to the original C1M1? I personally think it was perfect for a first level. The new one, while decent, is a bit confusing to naviguate and its monster population (which includes several Worms and many "Imps" on Extreme Carnage) strikes me as a bit excessive.

Additionally, on my first attempt, I did not realise the brown wall to the right of the impaled monster was supposed to be a door, so I went down the elevator instead and, without the Shotgun, I ran out of bullets by the time I reached the large outdoor area.

Have you played Doom e1m1 on UV? Its just as hard as c1m1 on EC, which normal. The extra worms are optional btw. You don't have to go through that area.

And yeah, if that door was visible right from the start, I'm sure more people would've noticed.

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Voros said:

Have you played Doom e1m1 on UV? Its just as hard as c1m1 on EC, which normal. The extra worms are optional btw. You don't have to go through that area.

And yeah, if that door was visible right from the start, I'm sure more people would've noticed.

I think that there should be a door behind the player in the start of the new c1m1. Or a row of prison chambers so we could at least know where the player came from.

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MrD!zone said:

I think that there should be a door behind the player in the start of the new c1m1. Or a row of prison chambers so we could at least know where the player came from.


Or maybe just one prison chamber.

Because FreedoomGuy (Freedoom Slayer?) is so hardcore that he gets his own maximum security cell.

Or a coffin. Whatever.

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Voros said:

Have you played Doom e1m1 on UV? Its just as hard as c1m1 on EC, which normal. The extra worms are optional btw. You don't have to go through that area.


Come on now, no need to get condescending. :/

Yes, as someone who not only has beaten Doom on Ultra-Violence many, many times but find it way too easy, I do think C1M1 is much, much harder on Extreme Carnage. E1M1 on UV is a piece of cake - even if you ignore the area near the with the Green Armour - as you have enough pistol ammo to deal with the Former Humans in the computer room and you can easily acquire a Shotgun from one of them. Also, Doom does not introduce the Pinky until E1M3.

In comparison, the new C1M1 gets unfairly difficult if you do not immediately go to the storage area and obtain the Shotgun, as you are greeted by a mob of Imps (how are they called again in Freedoom?) past the first door down the elevator - which the current level design encourages you to go through first. And you do encounter Worms on your way to the exit.

Again, the new C1M1 is not a bad map at all, but it just does not feel appropriate for the first level of the first episode of a game inspired by the original Doom. I mean, if it can catch a Doom veteran like myself completley offguard, then I cannot imagine how it is going to be for a newcomer...

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My take on the matter: First level - no pinkies. End of story.

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Just sat down with Choco at 320x200 (so as to remove the advantages of vertical mouselook and a high-resolution display) and played from C1M1 through to the first half of C1M4 on EC.

The ammo balance in continuous play seems extremely generous (partly because of the number of shotgun zombies), and I'm wondering where I missed a chaingun, because I haven't felt any need to consume a bullet since the first half of C1M1.

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Four Loko Is Gross said:

Or maybe just one prison chamber.

Because FreedoomGuy (Freedoom Slayer?) is so hardcore that he gets his own maximum security cell.

Or a coffin. Whatever.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wx66rbi25ea8ijr/c1m1.wad This is just a rough idea of what there should be. Theres a single cell at the end of the hallway of prison cells.

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JohnnyTheWolf said:

In comparison, the new C1M1 gets unfairly difficult if you do not immediately go to the storage area and obtain the Shotgun, as you are greeted by a mob of Imps (how are they called again in Freedoom?) past the first door down the elevator - which the current level design encourages you to go through first. And you do encounter Worms on your way to the exit.

Again, the new C1M1 is not a bad map at all, but it just does not feel appropriate for the first level of the first episode of a game inspired by the original Doom.

Ahh yes, the pinkies during the exit. Forgot about that.
Well if anything, I think a simple solution would be to add a shotgun near the mob of imps (for UV only), remove all pinkies and move the position of that door so that players will instantly notice it. The main problem seems to be the door not being visible at first sight. If that gets fixed, I'm sure players won't get lost so easily.

Inspired by Doom? No one said that, Freedoom's trying to be its own thing right now.

Edit: I'm no veteran. In fact I play like a newbie and yet I got through the map easy.

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Voros said:

Inspired by Doom? No one said that, Freedoom's trying to be its own thing right now.


Then, the game should not play exactly like Doom nor be called "Freedoom". ;)

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JohnnyTheWolf said:

Then, the game should not play exactly like Doom nor be called "Freedoom". ;)

That means Hacx, Chex Quest, etc are inspired by Doom because they play exactly like Doom?
Its "Freedoom", so? It uses Doom in the name, doesn't mean the game itself is inspired by Doom. In fact, that's the one thing it avoids.
====
On map08, the shotgunners in the hub room tend to get stuck in the bars.

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Voros said:

Its "Freedoom", so? It uses Doom in the name, doesn't mean the game itself is inspired by Doom. In fact, that's the one thing it avoids.



Then why hasn't MAP18 been dumped? Of all the maps in the entire project this is the one with the strongest feeling of déjà vu, by a very wide margin.

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I suppose a suitable replacement has never been proposed for it. Btw, which map in Doom does it resemble, out of curiosity?
====
The difficulty spike from c1m1 to c1m2 is pretty steep, especially for the second map of the chapter. C1m2 should be nerfed.

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Map18, of course.

If you compare the layout you'll notice some striking resemblances between those two maps, despite the different color theme.

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Having not played any of the Doom games for a long time, because of Freedoom, I decided to load it up. I can see the vague references here, with the starting room, the two-way entrance and so on. The only difference IMO, is that Freedoom's map18 is easier to navigate (Doom 2's map18 is a bit confusing) and has some interesting mechanics eg Revenant opens locked door when trapped outside.

But then again the resemblance feels too... Light if you will, since it doesn't directly copy Doom 2's map18 (unlike Freedoom's map11 or map07 if you ask me). I think with some minor changes to the structure and layout, it can be its own thing. I never noticed the resemblance until you mentioned it. Nobody even mentioned whether they saw a similarity or not. So I'm gonna assume it was too small for me to truly notice.

It's not a bad map, pretty fun. The exit is weird though, that should be changed.

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Strange, of all the maps in there it was the one where it was totally obvious to me.

Another one which clearly takes some cues from Doom2's namesake is MAP26, but that's less obvious.

My problem with MAP11 is far more that it's just copy/pasted pieces from another mod than the vague visual reference of one small part. Let's hope that the rework gives it some more of an own identity.

As for MAP07, well, it's par for course, it got to have a Mancubus/Arachnotron battle to use the specials. Well, the map sucks anyway in its current form.

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Graf Zahl said:

Another one which clearly takes some cues from Doom2's namesake is MAP26, but that's less obvious.

On the contrary, that was more obvious, right after stepping through the first door. We sure have different ways of viewing things.

I think it's the usage of Doom 2 structures that makes a map either look like a small tribute/homage or blatant ripoff. 07 and 18 feels like the former, while 11 and 26 being the latter. Not sure exactly why, I just do.

If such design wasn't used, or even properly hidden in the background/plain sight, it would suffice.

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Voros said:

That means Hacx, Chex Quest, etc are inspired by Doom because they play exactly like Doom?


Yes! :D

Voros said:

Its "Freedoom", so? It uses Doom in the name, doesn't mean the game itself is inspired by Doom.


Out of curiosity, is English your first language? Because as far as I know, inspiration is not synonymous with "plagiarism".

I still cannot believe we are arguing over whether Freedoom is inspired by Doom or not when it is clearly the former: the game has the exact same gameplay, the exact same types of enemies and weapons (minus of course the different skins and sounds), an almost identical interface and so on and so on.

I thought the purpose of Freedoom was to create an open-source Doom game. I mean, that is basically how the project presents itself:

Id Software released the source code to their classic game, Doom, under the GNU General Public License. This means that the program code that powers Doom is free; Freedoom complements this with free levels, artwork, sound effects and music to make a completely free game.

[...]

There is a massive 20 year back catalog containing thousands of Doom levels and other “mods” made by fans of the original game. Freedoom aims to be compatible with these and allows most to be played without the need to use non-free software.

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JohnnyTheWolf said:

I still cannot believe we are arguing over whether Freedoom is inspired by Doom or not when it is clearly the former: the game has the exact same gameplay, the exact same types of enemies and weapons (minus of course the different skins and sounds), an almost identical interface and so on and so on.

That doesn't mean it's "inspired". To say that it's inspired, is to say that it took Doom as the foundation for their work, their motivation. Each and every asset in Freedoom is 100% different from Doom's assets. They are kept similar to Doom's counterparts for the mod-compatibility goal. But music, maps, sprites can be changed drastically and still work with mods.

It's not "inspiration" per se. It's a necessity to be like Doom, so that Doom PWADs can work on it, both properly and aesthetically.

If the mod-compatibility goal wasn't the case, Freedoom would have been a whole new game full of DeHacked/DECORATE(or ZScript) stuff, a whole new look and gameplay, and well, anything. But it's not.

JohnnyTheWolf said:

I thought the purpose of Freedoom was to create an open-source Doom game. I mean, that is basically how the project presents itself

It is. But like I said before, it has to be a bit similar to Doom if you want a decent experience with PWADs, both properly and aesthetically.

I'll be honest, I see no point in discussing this and would prefer to just accept the simple truth: it's Doom, only free.

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Voros said:

Each and every asset in Freedoom is 100% different from Doom's assets.

Voros said:

They are kept similar to Doom's counterparts for the mod-compatibility goal.


Those two are essentially contradictions in terms. No matter how original the assets are, they were made to resemble the originals in a way that makes them roughly compatible. So, by all intents and purposes, Doom was the driving inspiration here.

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Voros said:

On the contrary, that was more obvious, right after stepping through the first door. We sure have different ways of viewing things.


Correct, but it's really just that one corridor. Should be easy enough to change.

With MAP18 it's an entirely different kind of similarity - not in visual style but in map layout. You got to admit that the start in the side room to the outside and then the gate to the inner courtyard and in part also the arrangements of the buildings are strikingly similar. I guess the map will be fine if it got moved into another slot and the start be moved to some place less obvious.

Essentially my first thought about that map - over 10 years ago - were "This is MAP18, only better".

While we are at it, the starting room of MAP21 also feels like an hommage to the original but far more subtle than those other 4 cases.

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Is there a reason MAP13 (AKA Nex Credo MAP09) was deemed easier than MAP14 (Nex Credo MAP03)?

Seemed curious, is all. By the way, placement of my maps in the MAP17 and MAP31 slots is basically perfect. Nice work. :D

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Ah, that's fair enough.

Incidentally, is MAP30 even possible? Spent every rocket on the stage in Godmode (PRBoom+, HMP) and still didn't kill the icon.

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