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Four Loko Is Gross

Noob Question: Limit Removing?

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OK, so I kinda expect this particular thread to not last very long once the question has been answered, but is it true that "Limit Removing" is about as close to "Vanilla" as a map can get without actually being Vanilla?

Obviously Boom goes a bit beyond what Vanilla is capable of, and maps made for GZDoom can have all kinds of craziness in them.

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Yep, limit removing is basically vanilla without having to worry about visplanes or drawsegs. Simple as that. :)

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Four Loko Is Gross said:

OK, so I kinda expect this particular thread to not last very long once the question has been answered, but is it true that "Limit Removing" is about as close to "Vanilla" as a map can get without actually being Vanilla?

The map format is vanilla. If the author uses said format to make a map that has problems when running in vanilla Doom, it means the map has broken some/all the limitations of the Doom engine. Hence, it can only run in ports that have increased limits such as Doom+. Because the format itself is vanilla, there's a good chance that 99% of all the ports can play it, because what Doom port drops vanilla format support?

In short, limit-removing is going beyond true vanilla. No monster limits, no design limits, no limits at all. It's another way to be creative using the oldest and original Doom map format. It's not "about as close", it's beyond it.

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Yes, "limit removing" means that it uses only vanilla features but won't crash if you make a really complex map.

In general you can lay out the different types of map in a scale:

vanilla-compatible -- limit removing -- Boom-compatible -- (some specific advanced port eg. ZDoom)

The further to the right you go, the more freedom for the mapper in terms of what they can make, but the level works in fewer source ports.

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I never understood why that was seen as a problem, unless of course some people are just attached to certain source ports or somehow have computers that are too weak to handle ZDoom. It's not like you actually have to pay to get them, they can be obtained in minutes if not seconds.

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Although bear in mind merely using a limit-removing source port does not absolutely entirely remove all limits. There are a series of hard limits inherent to the standard map format and node builder that you can't pass, even with a modern source port.

If you do want to pass them, you start to need to use things like extended nodes or even alternative map formats like UDMF, and by then you're down to only a handful of compatible source ports.

I wrote this post a little while back that sums up the different levels (this is specifically about level geometry).

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The only still-in-development limit removing port I can think of which isn't also fully Boom compatible is 3DGE, and even that's partially compatible and aiming to be more so in the future.

Are there any that aren't Boom compatible?

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Are tutti-fruttis bugs in limit removing? What about medusas? Can you have a moving platform with monsters stuck in the ceiling? Is technically incorrect order of lumps allowed? Do you still have the lost soul spawn limit?

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MetroidJunkie said:

I never understood why that was seen as a problem, unless of course some people are just attached to certain source ports or somehow have computers that are too weak to handle ZDoom. It's not like you actually have to pay to get them, they can be obtained in minutes if not seconds.

Some people think that (some subset or other) of the more advanced features aren't Doom, with different people having different objections to different features.

Some people, of course, do indeed play Doom on devices much weaker than a PC.

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Memfis said:

Are tutti-fruttis bugs in limit removing? What about medusas? Can you have a moving platform with monsters stuck in the ceiling? Is technically incorrect order of lumps allowed? Do you still have the lost soul spawn limit?

1. Engine related
2. Engine related
3. How is that possible?
4. Yes and no.
5. Depends on the engine.

I hope you were jk

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Memfis is (again) pointing out how poorly defined the term "limit-removing" is, because clearly only some limits are removed and it may depend on the engine which ones, which is a problem if you want to consider "limit-removing" a universal compatibility standard.

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NiGHTMARE said:

The only still-in-development limit removing port I can think of which isn't also fully Boom compatible is 3DGE, and even that's partially compatible and aiming to be more so in the future.

Are there any that aren't Boom compatible?



3DGE is in good hands and will get there.
I'm not so sure about Doomsday, with a developer that seems to live in another world...

But sure, aside from these two the only ones without Boom support would be the deliberate low end ports.

Memfis said:

Are tutti-fruttis bugs in limit removing? What about medusas?


Is there any software rendered port that claims to be limit removing and not really Boom compatible? That'd be the only ones affected.

Memfis said:

Can you have a moving platform with monsters stuck in the ceiling?


I'd say no. That'd be a game physics change which are not covered by limit removal.

Memfis said:

Is technically incorrect order of lumps allowed?


Again no. I think even Boom did not address this.

Memfis said:

Do you still have the lost soul spawn limit?


Considering that it's an option in nearly every port it's very hard to answer. Is it even a limit that SHOULD be removed in the first place?

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Memfis said:

Are tutti-fruttis bugs in limit removing? What about medusas? Can you have a moving platform with monsters stuck in the ceiling? Is technically incorrect order of lumps allowed? Do you still have the lost soul spawn limit?

Limit-removing is when a wad can be played in PRboom+ on -complevel 2/3/4.

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joe-ilya said:

Limit-removing is when a wad can be played in PRboom+ on -complevel 2/3/4.

That is a poor definition. It's clearly one of the two techniques that ca be implemented using the original Doom/Doom 2 map format.

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grommile said:

Some people, of course, do indeed play Doom on devices much weaker than a PC.


Even so, compatibility shouldn't be too limited for most people outside of a deliberate choice given that the Nintendo DS (Not 3DS, just DS) was able to effortlessly run a homebrew port of PrBoom and the Raspberry Pi 3 (Which is still around $35 which is nothing) can run ZDoom without a hassle.

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Voros said:

That is a poor definition. It's clearly one of the two techniques that ca be implemented using the original Doom/Doom 2 map format.

joe's statement actually seems correct, just not all that useful. There's no better practical feature set that'd define the limits that are actually being relaxed than cl2/3/4. Technically it's doom+ and doom2+, but that's ancient history. If your wad somehow breaks, because you're using stuff incompatible with pr+'s cl2/3/4, then it's NOT limit removing. However that's the "maximum set" of features and does nothing to draw the line between true vanilla and "limit-removing".

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Graf Zahl said:

Is there any software rendered port that claims to be limit removing and not really Boom compatible? That'd be the only ones affected.


Mocha Doom is probably the closest thing existing today to a "just" limit-removing port without Boom compatibility, however due to its nature it has explicit, active safeguards against things like medusas and tutti-frutti built-in.

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Graf Zahl said:

Is there any software rendered port that claims to be limit removing and not really Boom compatible? That'd be the only ones affected.

Uh, Crispy?

Doom+ and Doom Classic are also worth mentioning as ports that provide more breathing room than vanilla Doom but are otherwise effectively identical gameplay-wise.

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