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Sallan

I don't get DOOM II

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Sallan said:

Why so much people love DOOM II? it's 99,99% equal to DOOM, few new things and worse level design that doesn't look like earth.


I would attribute it to the addition of the Super shotgun, and that most mods use Doom 2.

As for level design I would disagree. I've never played through Doom 2 in it's entirety, even though I have played the 1st one several times through. I think it's more to do with the absence of episodes, then the quality of the levels themselves. IMO Doom 2 has some really playful level design in places, like the map where you make the Spiderdemon and Cyberdemon fight, or the one where you need to traverse rooms full of explosive barrels.

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Because it was a huge extra helping of Doom, just a year later, and who would say no to that?

32 new levels, with a large amount of varied, interesting, and powerful new monsters, which made high-level fights much more fun (instead of just shooting annoyingly-tanky Barons of Hell and the odd Cacodemons).

And the Super Shotgun, which was utter joy to use at the time. Satisfying power, sound effects, animations. It blew the normal Shotgun out of the water.

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Sallan said:

level design that doesn't look like earth


So first Doom levels looks like Phobos, huh? Man, I can't imagine Doom without such a great levels like Living End, Spirit World, Industrial Zone, Suburbs, Chasm, Monster Condo, Dead Simple. And all the new bestiary: Arch-viles, Revenants, Chaingunners, Arachnotrons... Man, back in the mid-nineties that was a huuuuge thing.

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Given what they had to work with, levels like Downtown do a pretty good job imitating Earthly Environments.



Clearly, Duke 3D has the edge with that because of its texture selection and coming out at a later date when technology is more there but Doom II made a valiant effort.

Also, Gardevoir showed that you could make very impressive environments with the right amount of detail (Which Doom II would have been incapable of with limitations at the time) and a few extra textures.


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Given that it was a major company utilizing not only the engine itself but essentially making an exact clone of Doom (Before the source code was released, unless I'm mistaken), they damn well had better gotten id's permission for it unless they wanted their asses sued.

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After a quick search, it seems that chex.wad indeed doesn't and never had the IWAD header, and yet it can be used standalone as an IWAD, without needing any other IWAD to couple it with.

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scifista42 said:

After a quick search, it seems that chex.wad indeed doesn't and never had the IWAD header, and yet it can be used standalone as an IWAD, without needing any other IWAD to couple it with.


so are they all like that, or just the first one?

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Doom 2 not as great as Doom?

I SOLD MY AMIGA A500 TO GET DOOM 2!

True story, sold it to a man as an Xmas pressie to his daughter after I'd gotten my first PC in 1995, got £50 for it, which was exactly what the CD version of Doom 2 cost. Most expensive PC game I ever got, and technically my first.

I much prefer Doom 2 to Doom (including Ultimate) because of the "full" bestiary, the SSG and what I consider to be id pushing the id Tech 1 engine. And of course the textures and skies were darker, they were going for, well, a darker, evil, look.

Of course, I still go back to Doom's first episode every now and again, although I barely remember what the later levels of the other episodes looked like, now.

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The Ultimate Doom holds a special place in my heart. It has nice level design, great music tracks and is easier for the beginner to get the hang of it.

Of course Doom 2 came later, when people got somewhat used to the Doom formula and innovates by adding the SSG, Chaingunners, Arch-viles (encounters become challenging with two or more of them), Pain Elementals (they should have put a Lost Souls limit here), Arachnotrons, Mancubi (or whatever the plural is) and a whole new boss.

These changes altered the dynamic of the game in a great way and now enemy priority is a lot different from the first game and the difficulty has been increased.

Also the first maps in Doom 2 seemed like the typical infested space station to me, which was fine, but the city maps are what added to the experience. Enemies placed tactically, increased verticality and secrets being well hidden.

The only bad thing I did myself is that I played Doom on HMP and proceeded to finish Doom 2 on UV, which was somewhat painful at the time. Since then, I beat Doom on UV (it was a lot easier than I remembered ) and will be playing Doom 2 again in the future.

So is one game better than the other? In my opinion, each game has its own positives and negatives and it's up to the player to decide.

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ShotgunDemolition, you forgot the Revenants, the BEST new enemies in Doom 2 by a massive margin. Who could forget that horrible scream of theirs when they spot you? Especially a GROUP of them!

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ShotgunDemolition said:

Pain Elementals (they should have put a Lost Souls limit here)


there is, its capped at 21

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ShotgunDemolition said:

The only bad thing I did myself is that I played Doom on HMP and proceeded to finish Doom 2 on UV, which was somewhat painful at the time. Since then, I beat Doom on UV (it was a lot easier than I remembered ) and will be playing Doom 2 again in the future.

As someone who's beaten all of Ultimate Doom on UV, and is now playing Doom II for the very fist time, I can attest to it being somewhat painful even having gone through the first game (including episode 4) on its harder difficulties first.

Levels like "Refueling Base" and "Suburbs" in particular are relentless if you don't know the tricks to them, as you'll quickly find the entire stages flooded with monsters and have too little ammo to deal with them. Unlike the first three episodes of Ultimate Doom, where UV seems to provide fair difficulty for a blind run, here I'm finding the stages are very much set up for you to already be familiar with them by the time they're populated with that many enemies.

On the other hand, outside of those stages, I'm sure HMP would have been too easy, as I'm not dying a ton otherwise. It seems to be coming down to a few drastic difficulty spikes and certain levels requiring familiarity much more than others.

If you save after activating an extra room of monsters on "Refuling Base" and haven't come in with much ammo, good luck.

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Doom 1 is a much better level set/thematic progression, Doom 2 is a much better toolset for community content. It's kind of a tossup.

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The Refueling Base always gave me the creeps when I was playing the game as a kid. I just found it so big and intimidating. And I knew there was a Cyberdemon in there too which genuinely scared me!

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Bauul said:

The Refueling Base always gave me the creeps when I was playing the game as a kid. I just found it so big and intimidating. And I knew there was a Cyberdemon in there too which genuinely scared me!

Ha, it scared me as a twenty-something when I got to it the other day. Doing a blind UV run and had no idea how crowded the map would be. I'd trigger one encounter with fifteen enemies, then try to retreat to a bit of safe ground in the next huge room, only to trigger twenty more there.

It was such a clusterfuck. I'll have to figure out how to pistol start that sometime. It seems way too easy to trigger enemies, given the wide open spaces. Definitely felt like an out-of-place difficulty spike.

In general I'm finding Doom II much harder than anything Ultimate Doom, including Episode 4. I don't know if I like the way it's difficult yet, though. It's almost a little too open, and rather than staging isolated, clever encounters, you just have to figure out how not to trigger half the map early on.

Oh, also, the first few archvile encounters genuinely scared me -- and this isn't a joke -- in a horror-movie way. So unexpected, with their cry and their weird movement, and they just send you into immediate panic mode.

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Yes, Refueling Base, I know it well!

At the start of the map, just before the steps, there is a secret room on the right that might help you. But yes, this map is possibly my most favourite of Doom 2, as it is a good test map for Brutal Doom and other mods.

As for setting off traps, yes, there's those walls in that large open space on the right once you go down the steps, and yes, walking over each of the exits in that area opens each of the walls. Then there's the corridor next to it with a whole BARRACKS of zombie soldiers on one side, and a large empty dark room with Revenants and Arachnotrons. Then two other rooms off the main area, with pinkies and lost souls on one side and revenants and imps on the other. Then there's the other large room filled with Arachnotrons and imps. Then the pitch-black room with imps held in forcefields, and finally, yes, there IS a Cyberdemon.

It's no big deal, however: if you've played Doom, you'll know all about the monster in-fighting that can help you beat them if you're low on ammo, and frankly, the sheer scale of some of these battles can be insane!

Except, do NOT try to play Refueling Base (including typo there!) on Brutal Doom, as you will get pwned quickly! It is very entertaining though, that map and that mod put together.

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Voros said:

Freedoom is the way to go, The People's Doom has been on vacation for over 15 years.

It definitely had a hell of a break, but there has been a lot of behind-the-scenes work the past couple of days. If progress keeps up something concrete might surface in the next few weeks.

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I feel like Doom I got midway through the process of breaking the sound barrier on 3D level design -- getting to the point of designing locations instead of really awesome mazes/Wolf 3D 2.0 levels. Certain designers got farther (Romero) than others (Hall).

By the time of Doom II, Sandy and co. have made it into the next generation. They're trying to design places, like the Suburbs, O of Destruction, whatever, but it's tough -- fully modern level design sorta requires more flexibility than the Doom engine can provide -- and the work has been squeezed into a short development cycle. The result was pretty uneven.

The interesting thing to me is how the maze-y style was often better than the more modern one (Hall being the poster boy), and how many cool new pwads seem more in the Doom I format with a bajillion different hallways, even though they use the Doom II iwad. And witness the number of doomworld users who are Doom I fanboys.

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Death Egg said:

It definitely had a hell of a break, but there has been a lot of behind-the-scenes work the past couple of days. If progress keeps up something concrete might surface in the next few weeks.

Source? I'm interested. I always find Boingo looking at the COLORMAP generator thread, but that's it.
Can you give a small preview of some kind to show off progress?

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I cannot personally give you any screenshots or releases yet, but I am essentially second to Boingo on the project. A lot of open source resources have been pulled from around the community (Eriance left a hell of a legacy) and I've taken it upon myself to begin working on the levels themselves personally. The palette issues have finally been solved, and all assets are being converted. By April something substantial may be ready to show to the public.

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