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Sallan

I don't get DOOM II

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Aquanet said:

I don't get Refueling Base. It's boxy/canned-feeling shovelware that started out in one of the alphas. Tom Hall was eating pizza and was distracted when he started the design. And this is coming from someone who thinks Monster Condo is one of the better Doom II maps.

Monster Condo and Refueling Base are night and day for me. Monster Condo is filled with fun combat sequences, and the layout is memorable and easy to understand. Everything gets triggered when it's supposed to, making for clear moments of intense action followed by little reprieves.

I have a feeling Refueling Base might be fun if I could get there with sufficient ammo, or if it were more generous about what it gives you from a pistol start. I don't feel like the resources match the enemy count or placement, especially for level 10. I also feel like the randomness with which enemies can be triggered in neighboring rooms during combat is genuinely a mistake. (Sometimes a Revenant walks into the chain gun room; sometimes he doesn't; sometimes the Arachnotron blue key room gets triggered early, etc.; this is incredibly frustrating on pistol starts.) It bothers me that the safest route bypasses half the map too. Unless you're going for 100%, there's no reason to see several large rooms. That actually crops up a few times in Sandy's Doom 2 maps (large optional areas where the rewards don't match the danger/resource expenditure), and it's something I wish had been a little more fully considered.

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In continuous play, if you come into Refuelling Base dry, you didn't trigger enough infighting during The Pit.

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Is it even possible to run out of ammo in doom1 (except e1m1\e1m2) and doom2 though?
It feels like there is enough ammo on each map to kill double\triple the monsters on it, Sometimes not even including secrets.

Pistol start is better balanced than continuous. It doesn't need to be easier on UV because it is supposed to be the hard difficulty. Although in continuous play it isn't really that hard and forces you to play nightmare if you want a challenge.

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Pegg said:

It doesn't need to be easier on UV because it is supposed to be the hard difficulty.


Quoted for truth. UV isn't the standard a lot of players seem to see it as. Game simply wasn't balanced for UV, and you can see telltale signs all over the IWAD maps of this; stuck UV-only monsters, a lack of UV health, etc.

HMP is 'normal', UV is 'yeah I beat normal and want to make it more interesting'.

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grommile said:

In continuous play, if you come into Refuelling Base dry, you didn't trigger enough infighting during The Pit.

I didn't trigger enough infighting in The Pit then. Doesn't exactly make a difference in how Refueling Base plays as a stand-alone level, as my issues with it extend to how it works from a pistol start, especially for a level 10 entry.

And the issue isn't just that it's difficult, but that the setup and ammo allocation doesn't really operate well with an open, monster-heavy map, nor does it encourage you to explore unless you're going for 100 percent. Anyone just trying to reach the end is going to enter the chaingun room, the yellow key room, the blue key room, then warp behind the Cyber Demon and be done.

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Grazza said:

Ugh, great, another n00b spouting this crap.

Doom2 was better than Doom1 in every respect. Doom2 was the complete game, whereas Doom1 was just the prototype.

Not only that; Doom2 was the best of the iwads, and better than all but a very few later megawads.

Well, someone's an ass kisser.

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Doom 2 added a bulky expansion onto the series, with more textures, enemies, etc. It's not hard to see why it's a fan favorite. The music is also pretty good if you ask me.

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I just played Refueling Base again. I know things about the map, so I ignored some of the helpful secrets (e.g. shotgun near the start, stuff in the dark hitscanner room), but I forgot 80%+ of the content. It was really fun, and I think stacks up favorably to a lot of modern stuff. Tactically none of the combat is demanding on paper, but your route can highly influence how much ammo you have, so it's entirely possible to just run out of ammo with a lot of stuff wandering about, which is quite exciting (those early pain elementals!!!). I think in modern times us mappers try to make things 'fair and balanced', but idk, some of the most fun I've had lately is stumbling into bullshit routes in nonlinear maps and having to evade or fend off lots of stuff with inadequate equipment.

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I fail to understand why people are complaining about Doom 2's difficulty.

DOOM 2 IS MEANT TO BE MORE DIFFICULT!

Id software assumed that people would play the first game first, and master it, before moving on to the next level of difficulty.

Simples, really.

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To be honest I think a lot of us here played them both so much that we no longer realize what made them a challenge. Personally now I find both Iwads a walk in the park.

Compared to first time I played doom with no mouse look nor strafing (Yes, UV no strafing at all, cybers are fun) it is way easier. It might be refreshing for people to retry the iwads with that control scheme and see how different it feels. I feel part of the game was balanced around having a shitty control scheme. (Arrows, Ctrl to shoot, Shift to run (oh ye both iwads are beatable without running (except map02 on doom2, fuck that specific jump, Map30 is really challenging with that).

Then again people would argue control scheme shouldn't\isn't be part of difficulty, And I tell them go try system shock 1 and come back and tell me that shit isn't 90% of the difficulty.

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Pegg said:

I feel part of the game was balanced around having a shitty control scheme.

It's been outright confirmed that it was designed around mouse and keyboard.

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I noticed that adapting a more modernish control scheme in Setup (Even Vanilla Doom) with setting WADS to move, left/right arrow keys to turn, F to fire, and E to use makes for a far more playable experience than the old-school default of arrows to move, ctrl to fire, space to use, and alt to strafe.

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Arctangent said:

It's been outright confirmed that it was designed around mouse and keyboard.


Well then I have no idea what to say beside UV is too easy on the two(Beside a few starting maps.. But that's more E4 and Heretic than doom1\2). But then again I remember the stupid push the mouse does to make using it for this extremely irritating.

And yea the default control scheme is pure rubbish by today standards.

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If it was designed around the mouse, was it typical to do a setup that had strafe keys where the turn keys would usually be back in the day? I'm honestly having a hard time telling, I'm watching Romero's play in the old visit to id software video, and he's definitely strafing quite a bit, so I guess even if it wasn't the case they were still used to strafing quite a bit. Though I can't find any moment where he's strafing and turning at the same time, so maybe he has a strafe button bound in a convenient location. (there does seem to be a little keyboard turning here and there)

Sandyman once did mention that the game was balanced around pistol start (and Romero's also said things similar to that, and really it makes sense, given that all levels need to be beatable from a pistol start in case the player dies and loses all their items), but since the game lets you keep your items in normal play, it ended up being a little too easy overall.

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Foebane72 said:

Id software assumed that people would play the first game first, and master it, before moving on to the next level of difficulty.

Not true. id specifically made Doom 2 to be commercial, i.e. in retail stores to get wider exposure. The original Doom was mail-order only, the shareware version was what most people played without bothering to upgrade.

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Well, this was still in the 90's when games weren't completely holding your hand yet. It was a blissful middle ground between hand holding tutorials and arcade quarter draining hard. If you found Doom 2 hard, ITYTD isn't a hard difficulty level on it.

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Without Doom II, you wouldn't have:

-The Super Shotgun
-The Megasphere
-The Monster Spawner
-A ton of new textures
-The Chaingunner
-The Arachnatron
-The Hell Knight
-The Pain Elemental
-The Mancubus
-The Revenant
-The Archvile
-The S.S. Trooper (and by extension, wolfendoom)
-The Icon of Sin

...

Imagine how different the mapping community would be without all of the Doom 2 resources.

Thank God they made this "okay" game.

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TraceOfSpades said:

Without Doom II, you wouldn't have:

-The Super Shotgun
-The Megasphere
-The Monster Spawner
-A ton of new textures
-The Chaingunner
-The Arachnatron
-The Hell Knight
-The Pain Elemental
-The Mancubus
-The Revenant
-The Archvile
-The S.S. Trooper (and by extension, wolfendoom)
-The Icon of Sin

...

Imagine how different the mapping community would be without all of the Doom 2 resources.

Thank God they made this "okay" game.

I just love DOOM II for modding, but the game ITSELF as i said is not very good.

They could remove the baron of hell at least but nope...

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Sallan said:

I just love DOOM II for modding, but the game ITSELF as i said is not very good.

They could remove the baron of hell at least but nope...

It's an interesting enemy if used AND placed right.

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Sgt Ender said:

It's an interesting enemy if used AND placed right.


All the times i renember fighting the baron was boring, easy to avoid his projectiles and takes time to kill, interesting design with a shitty fight (and launch green plasma balls? c'mon, totally out of place)

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Arctangent said:

I'm pretty sure that's fire, not plasma.

Y'know, like demonic green fire.


i dont think it's fire, if is so must be high quality, since it dont disappear into the air fast.

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I just assumed it was nuclear waste. You know, like the nuclear waste present all throughout the game? Maybe the Baron absorbed it into himself or something.

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TraceOfSpades said:

-A ton of new textures


Yeah, but a lot of UDoom ones were removed, especially computer ones. COMP2? COMPUTE1/2? PLANET1? TEKWALL2, 3 and 5? Never heard of them, sir.

Please don't tell me SILVER2 and SPACEW3 are suitable replacements for all that.

The TEKGRENx series is great though, I really like it... but I miss my COMPOHSO, BROVINE, SKINBORD and ICKDOOR1. Not to mention what they had done to poor SHAWN1...

Yeah, there are those "doom 1 textures in doom 2" patches... but you can't do that in community projects. Mapping for Doom 2 is really hard for me, harder than it should be.

TraceOfSpades said:

-The Chaingunner
...
-The Revenant


The id guys really should't have bothered... :]

-------------------------

Sallan said:

All the times i renember fighting the baron was boring, easy to avoid his projectiles and takes time to kill, interesting design with a shitty fight (and launch green plasma balls? c'mon, totally out of place)


Check out UnAligned E1M8.

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