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Mechadon

Doom 64 for Doom II - /idgames link is up

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, NightFright said:

B marks Boom compatible versions, if I am not mistaken. I assume maps marked as such are more detailed and therefore exceed vanilla limits. Actually I am curious how you load the vanilla versions. My guess is they used the B maps in MAPINFO.

This question was already answered by Da Werecat, but I want to clarify.  The B maps are exactly the same as the vanilla ones in every way except for the off-map voodoo dolls.  They are pointed to in the MAPINFO/ZMAPINFO/EMAPINFO lumps, so if you are playing continuous they will load up automatically.  Its recommended that if you are warping around to maps individually, load up the B versions of the maps instead of the vanilla ones.  If you want to load the vanilla version, just omit the 'B' at the end of the map lump name.  The readme lists all of the B variant maps.  Also, unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to load up the Boom-variant maps in ports like PrBoom+ (ironically).

 

I made the Boom-variant maps for a couple of reasons.  ZDaemon (and maybe a couple of other ports) had some issues with the vanilla voodoo dolls.  I could get them to work but it required me to set them up in a way that made the player take more damage than I liked.  So the boom variants were put in as a way to fix the ZDaemon problem and as a quality-of-life change for people playing in advanced ports.

 

@JohnnyTheWolf

Spoiler

In the library room past the BK door (specifically the latter library area) , look for a wider-than-normal bookcase.  Press use on that and it will lead you to the last secret.

 

Edited by Mechadon

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Mechadon said:

@JohnnyTheWolf

  Reveal hidden contents

In the library room past the BK door (specifically the latter library area) , look for a wider-than-normal bookcase.  Press use on that and it will lead you to the last secret.

 

EDIT: Ah, never mind. I was looking in the wrong area. Thanks again!

 

Also, good job adding the Fun Levels to the normal rotation, by the way. They do not feel shoehorned in like in Brutal Doom 64.

Edited by JohnnyTheWolf

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Honestly the only thing holding D64 together was it's appearance. Using vanilla pc textures killed the best part of the game. Looks faithful as hell though

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What do you mean? Sure, it feels more like a third-party mission pack for Doom 2 now, but the level design is still pretty solid.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JohnnyTheWolf said:

What do you mean? Sure, it feels more like a third-party mission pack for Doom 2 now, but the level design is still pretty solid.

 

Agreed, it's a pretty different take on the original D64 but it manages to remain pretty faithful and fun for the most part, though it certainly is not as atmospheric, except maybe for Unholy Temple, can't love the outside area of this version enough. But The Absolution... unholy hell what was that platforming section with the red skull...

 

And those extra levels... they have no place in the normal map rotation whatsoever from my POV.

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43 minutes ago, Agent6 said:

And those extra levels... they have no place in the normal map rotation whatsoever from my POV.

Where would you put them then?

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2 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

Where would you put them then?

 

Would've made all of them secret levels.

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11 hours ago, Agent6 said:

Would've made all of them secret levels.

This is for vanilla, so only 2 secret levels are possible, and the exits have to be on 15 and 31.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Agent6 said:

 

Agreed, it's a pretty different take on the original D64 but it manages to remain pretty faithful and fun for the most part, though it certainly is not as atmospheric, except maybe for Unholy Temple, can't love the outside area of this version enough.

I just made it to Unholy Temple and honestly, I do not think it can even hold a candle to D64D2's Terror Core.

 

16 hours ago, Agent6 said:

But The Absolution... unholy hell what was that platforming section with the red skull...

What about it? I found it to be incredibly easy, actually, far more than the Blue Skull area.

 

All you have to do is to step on the next platform that briefly flashes.

 

* * *

 

Anyway, I just beat Doom 64 for Doom 2. I have mixed feelings about Cage's custom Mother Demon sprite, which is well made in itself but looks a bit out of place, and I am a bit disappointed that the Nightmare Cacodemon was not used more, but those issues aside, I am happy with the mapset.

 

It was absolutely worth waiting five years!

Edited by JohnnyTheWolf

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On 8/24/2018 at 8:52 PM, Marcaek said:

Are there any future updates planned to this?

No updates are planned, this is the final version.  Well, unless a really awful bug pops up of course.

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Anyone know what the deal is with Even Simpler? After killing the Mancubi it, it appears I have to flip some switches then SR across the map, but can't make the temporarily exposed switches in time. Shooting them doesn't do anything. Perhaps this has been answered already, but I don't want to sift through 35 pages of posts. :)

 

The conversion seems really well made, but honestly I'm not a fan of some of the liberties taken with this wad. Placing the irritating secret maps into the rotation and adding more puzzles than the original game had really kills the flow in my opinion. I do enjoy the look of the architecture though. In a lot of ways the mapsets look more complex than their DOOM 64 originals, which is cool. It's also great to see the missing enemies re-implemented (Revenants, Arch Villes, etc).

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You're not shooting them hard enough ;)

 

(They are shootable. Unsure as to why it wouldn't work...)

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29 minutes ago, Bashe said:

You're not shooting them hard enough ;)

 

(They are shootable. Unsure as to why it wouldn't work...)

 

Strange. I'll give it another try.

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1 hour ago, amackert said:

Strange. I'll give it another try.

 

Yep, they're shootable switches, just press a button, look around to see which one is revealed and shoot it before it's hidden again.

 

I thought you were supposed to strafe from one to another at first too, but I could never make it, so I figured I might as well try shooting them and bingo, solution found. The more you know.

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On 9/11/2018 at 6:20 AM, amackert said:

In a lot of ways the mapsets look more complex than their DOOM 64 originals, which is cool.

At least someone noticed.

 

I don't really get the people who are saying that this is just Doom 64 minus colored lighting or whatever. I suspect they either didn't pay attention, or simply don't remember much about Doom 64.

 

Granted, more things could've been changed in this wad to make it more playable and/or innovative, but it's already pushing it as far as authenticity is concerned.

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14 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

I don't really get the people who are saying that this is just Doom 64 minus colored lighting or whatever. I suspect they either didn't pay attention, or simply don't remember much about Doom 64.

 

People by nature didn't pay attention to small things. That's the movie/game development curse.

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On 9/10/2018 at 11:20 PM, amackert said:

Placing the irritating secret maps into the rotation and adding more puzzles than the original game had really kills the flow in my opinion.

I've seen this sentiment mentioned a few times in various places, so I'll take the time to explain.

 

Being that this is a vanilla project, we needed 32 maps to fill out the project.  As it happens, those secret maps + the main campaign of Doom 64 equal out to 32 maps in total.  The secret maps are a part of Doom 64, regardless of how they are presented.  And if we had left them out, I'm certain I would be hearing "where are the secret maps?".  We could only have two actual secret maps (31 & 32), and there was no way I was going to pull out Hectic or In The Void for any of those maps (Cat and Mouse might have been an ok candidate, but not the other two).

 

It made sense to try and merge them into the project in a way felt appropriate.  All three secret maps are essentially arena-style maps; Hardcore and Playground specifically feel like different takes on Even Simpler.  I tried to treat them in a similar way by having them be spikes in difficulty (placing them in the map list was the hardest aspect).  Cat and Mouse works as the nice techbase-theme sendoff since it feels like a proper boss level.

 

I can understand if the maps aren't as interesting or fun when you compare them to the rest of the maps; again, they are mostly just simple arena maps that play off of the Dead Simple/Even Simpler motif.  But would it have been better to fill those 3 slots with user-made maps and just ignore them?  I don't think so.  It made more sense to try and fit them into the main wad.  Like it or not, they are a part of Doom 64 and it didn't make sense to ignore them.

 

Also regarding any extra puzzle stuff that was added, almost all instances of 'new' stuff was added because of the vanilla limitations (that I can think of).  The MAP07 shootable switches is one such case, the key side-areas in MAP30 is another, and etc.  Doom 64 has lots of focus on puzzle elements for better or for worse.  So to keep with that theme, it felt appropriate to use puzzle elements for any new designs that were needed to fit this within the vanilla limits.  In theory I think this was a good choice, but the execution is definitely up to debate :P

 

Anyways, I hope that clears up why those decisions were made.

Edited by Mechadon : typo fix

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I finally made it to the end after playing casually for a few weeks. Pretty well-made maps, although the final boss is a bit frustrating to actually fight. I don't hate homing attacks or archvile style hitscan flames, but both at once? Stops being 'difficult' and just becomes mindlessly busy. I wouldn't mind focusing more on cover than on actually firing but she's got way too much health to boot. Not a satisfying encounter imho.

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I have only skimmed the past 35 pages, so I am not sure if this has been addressed yet. But is there interest in a non-midi optional ambient (similar to Aubrey Hodges style) soundtrack to this map set?

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I don't think it was brought up, at least not exactly this. A long time ago, I recall there was an attempt at ambient music made within the constraints of MIDI, but apparently it was dropped. One reason I can think of is that this project is supposed to be Doom 64 recreated to feel like a Doom 2 mapset, therefore making any elements of it closer to Doom 64 is against the design.

 

That said, optional means not constrained by the project goals, and I really like your ambient albums, so if that sounded like an attempt to discourage such an endeavor - it was anything but.

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58 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

I don't think it was brought up, at least not exactly this. A long time ago, I recall there was an attempt at ambient music made within the constraints of MIDI, but apparently it was dropped. One reason I can think of is that this project is supposed to be Doom 64 recreated to feel like a Doom 2 mapset, therefore making any elements of it closer to Doom 64 is against the design.

 

That said, optional means not constrained by the project goals, and I really like your ambient albums, so if that sounded like an attempt to discourage such an endeavor - it was anything but.


Indeed a consistent style and theme is at the top of the list of what should be done. It's a bummer to start a game which breaks consistency. For example, I like No Man's Sky, but its missions and storylines are basically text adventures. It often says an alien is sleeping or something but its standing there staring at you. So I 100% understand what you're saying.

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FWIW, when I did my first full playthrough of an early beta, I used a custom ambient soundtrack, and it was great. I did it because not all music was done at the time, but also because I like dark ambient mixed with Doom 2 visuals. PSX Doom is highly regarded around here, so I doubt I'm the only one.

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2 hours ago, Immorpher said:

I have only skimmed the past 35 pages, so I am not sure if this has been addressed yet. But is there interest in a non-midi optional ambient (similar to Aubrey Hodges style) soundtrack to this map set?

Yea that would be awesome!  If you (or anyone for that matter) make something that goes along with this project, I'll happily mirror a link to it and toss it up on the first post here.

 

By the way, you'll want to take a look at the MAPINFOs in the main wad for some of the alternate track names.  CoTeCiO has some 'enhanced' tracks that couldn't play properly in vanilla due to some limitations, so those tracks are named differently and are pointed to in the MAPINFO lumps.  To make sure your tracks play, you'll probably need to either supply a patched MAPINFO with your wad or duplicate some of the tracks that have alternate names.

 

2 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

I don't think it was brought up, at least not exactly this. A long time ago, I recall there was an attempt at ambient music made within the constraints of MIDI, but apparently it was dropped. One reason I can think of is that this project is supposed to be Doom 64 recreated to feel like a Doom 2 mapset, therefore making any elements of it closer to Doom 64 is against the design.

Yup, that was my original goal when the project got a reboot.  I wouldn't say the idea was dropped, more that we didn't really get enough ambient entries to fill the entire roster.  Also I remember some of the ambient tracks didn't sound all that great in OPL2 and certain soundfonts, sadly.  In the end it seemed to make more sense to have a more original Doom musical soundscape I suppose, though I did try to work in more ambient tunes on the whole.

 

*edit*

 

Quick PSA while I'm here - stay away from the beta downloads page for now.  Recent uploads have been screwed up for a while now and you won't get the correct download or readme info there.  The legacy page is correct thankfully, and if that doesn't work for some reason, you can download from my mirror.

 

I'll try to keep an eye on the beta page, and once its fixed I'll add a direct link to it.

Edited by Mechadon

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I'm gonna vent her a little, now that enough time has passed since the release.

 

Spoiler

 

In the end, I'm fairly pleased with how this thing turned out, aside from a number of relatively insignificant regrets which I'm gonna address here in no particular order. By far the most important one is the usage of voodoo dolls. I could go on and on about how I loathe that design decision, and sometimes I wish I yelled at people more when there was still time to influence something. Highly doubt it would actually help, and then everyone including me would probably have a bad aftertaste about the whole thing, so whatever.

 

This is something that I think echoes one of the /idgames reviewers who complained about how the recreation is too faithful, going as far as saying that it uses Boom features. This is obviously wrong, unless you really want to get technical, but the sentiment is relatable in that being too literal in one's interpretation robs the work from potential displays of creativity.

 

And in the case of vanilla voodoo dolls the aforementioned literal interpretation is achieved with something tacky and weird. My position is that a good hack is the one you don't notice. Vanilla voodoo dolls can't be hidden. You can be pretty clever about it though, and I remember complimenting at least one map for veiling the side effects well, but not every example in the wad does it.

 

Then there's MAP08. I'm sorta glad I gave it a tune-up due to about 50% of the layout that I'm happy with, but the other 50% is an overdetailed mess. The charred debris flow room is actually in the former category, but the two elevators at the start and the formerly-3D corridors - oh my fucking god, those corridors.

 

Something I don't regret is not giving MAP10 much of a facelift. Memfis said on multiple occasions that the project is very consistent in regards to style, and this makes me rather curious because you still get things like the detail difference between MAP08 and MAP10. There are some examples among hell maps too. But this is fine.

 

What I don't enjoy when watching streams of MAP10 is the feeling of dread when the players approach the yellow key. Now, don't get me wrong, I think the puzzle is hilarious. But it's only funny if you hit the correct switch when the key platform is raised. Then you solve it, exclaim "Fuck you, mapper!" and move on. But the confusion one might experience when hitting the switch with the platform already lowered is unnecessary.

 

Thank god for the audible switches idea - at least you'll know that something is supposed to change. But what I think would be an even better enhancement only came to me recently: what the switch should really activate is a secret teleporter in the same corridor that would lead directly into the YK cage. It would also make the button to let the coop players out of the cage useful in SP.

 

MAP32. I yelled at the last-minute lighting changes at first, but after watching a certain demo and looking more closely at how it was all done, I don't want to complain anymore. My initial reservations came from the fact that I thought of a potential darker version of the map as a total overhaul. The bright version looked a little bland, but it had a certain design integrity: the void emitted light and it was pouring inside through the skylights. Thus, an overhaul would be about a dark void with new light sources illuminating rooms from within, making windows glow in an otherwise pitch-black or almost pitch-black nothingness. But the final result makes sense in the end, it's just not what I imagined.

 

And of course I regret not doing those intermission graphics. I think I had some alright ideas for them. But at this point it's abundantly clear to me that I can't rely on myself to make decent graphics in a reasonable amount of time. Thinking that the release date was, like, tomorrow for several weeks (if not months) contributed to the time wasted not getting shit done, but this is little more than an excuse.

 

Speaking of graphics, I still think the aqueducts are too high. Either I didn't tune them enough, or I did and it didn't help. You can't just place things arbitrarily high without certain adjustments to how they look.

 

Observation room in MAP04 was better at some point, with a more clear view of the pillars, but I had to change it because it ate too many drawsegs. I don't remember if it was when the useless side windows were added, but I think it wasn't. If it was, then removing said windows might've given me something to work with, but I missed this opportunity.

 

The Lair and its endless supply of soul spheres; also its weird, difficulty-dependent weapon progession. I think exactly one change was warranted at the very least: replacing the secret megasphere with an SSG. I didn't think of it at the time, and I felt pretty bad about working on someone else's map already, so I tried to change little in the way of how the map actually played. Ended up changing enough, but not the things that mattered.

 

Music choices. I must admit that putting that track into MAP04 was more of an experiment committed out of desperation. I was lucky enough to pilfer two of Viscra Maelstrom's best tracks so late in the development, but my luck ended there. The lighting work in the pillar room ended up being downplayed by MIDI rock as a result, and it's one of the few things in my maps that I'm truly satisfied with due to it:

 

1. Looking kinda alright.
2. Being effortless in execution.

 

In hindsight, I probably should've went with my idea to lift a couple of Evilution tracks for MAP04 and MAP10; the latter in particular was supposed to be even darker in tone.

 

People said things about dioramas a lot, I think, which made me look back on my decisions and realize that I probably fucked up with the last one, at least in the eyes of someone expecting consistency. It was purely technical. I couldn't replicate the actual room due to a linedef action used for that bridge without design compromises, so I simplified things. This is also why the first diorama showing the same room closes once you reach the second one - ideally, it should've also reflected the raising of the bridge, but I couldn't do that.

 

In retrospect, there was an elegant way to do all of those things. All I had to do is make the bridge non-acid non-damaging one from the beginning, perhaps raising it 16-24 units out of the floor. Since it's not a death pit anymore, a small area of safety inside wouldn't matter at all, and it would allow me to use a less demanding linedef action. Oopsie.

 

 

Turned out longer that I thought it would due to me adding things to it in the course of several weeks. Remind me to never become deeply invested in other people's projects.

Edited by Da Werecat

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On 11/20/2018 at 8:53 PM, Da Werecat said:

Music choices. I must admit that putting that track into MAP04 was more of an experiment committed out of desperation. I was lucky enough to pilfer two of Viscra Maelstrom's best tracks so late in the development, but my luck ended there.

That's nice.

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The track is good, the tone is not something that I would typically use. And it didn't change my preferences.

 

Although someone called it groovy on a stream, so there's that.

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