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Mechadon

Doom 64 for Doom II - /idgames link is up

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The chaingun speed increase is a little much IMO. The nightmare monsters are not entirely unwarranted, though I couldn't tell you at this stage whether or not I will find any use for them while I'm updating Blood Keep and a few of the other maps. Maybe if I add in my own new areas.

 

EDIT: If nobody picks up Nevander's Dark Citadel before I finish Blood Keep, I'll take a whack at finishing it.

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51 minutes ago, DILDOMASTER666 said:

EDIT: If nobody picks up Nevander's Dark Citadel before I finish Blood Keep, I'll take a whack at finishing it.

Feel free to go right ahead if you want, it's practically done but needs texture alignments and maybe some changes, and that outside area causes a visplane overflow so something needs to be done out there for sure. The trap for blue key was really primitive so it could surely be improved as well. Oh and also need to remove the red key that's placed in front of the red door. Had it there for easy testing, but obviously shouldn't be there.

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I will be an oldman with big gray beard and with cane in the hand...because I want to whine:

 

I like this dehacked patch, and idea with Cyberdemon with Keen's trigger is awesome. But there is no way to run D64D2 as "absolutely vanilla" anymore.

 

I always thought that I can play this mappack without any weapon or monster mods. Becuse D64D2 is kinda the Doom3.wad

Doom1.wad and Doom2.wad are not so different, pistol's and chaingun's firerate aren't changed between those games. Why it happens in our Doom3.wad?

 

So, I want to say that I want 2 different versions of this mod at release date - with dehacked patch and without. Yes, I know, maps with Cyberdemon bosses must be somehow reimagined but that's the idea of this project - to fake original scripts in Doom 2 Vanilla Engine.

 

Also, yes, since I suggested this idea - I will do it by myself if you're worry about executor/performer

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I'm fine with replaced monsters and keen codepointers, but changing the existing weapon and monster behavior/stats is unacceptable IMO. Also, I suggest incorporating the changes from the optional dehacked patch distributed with the minor sprite fix project.

 

What is the difference between @CoTeCiO's version and @Da Werecat's version of the interpic? Should my titlepic be updated accordingly?

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Thanks for the feedback so far guys!  If anyone else has any thoughts, please chime in.  Things have slowed down so its looking like another build won't come for a while now.

 

Just to comment on the dehacked stuff, I'm thinking that most of the gameplay-related changes will likely be rolled back at this point (unless there's an overwhelming support for it).  Regarding the Pistol/Chaingun changes, at first I was really happy with them.  But I've had more time to test the build on my own, and they do feel like they are just a bit too powerful.  Unfortunately there's not much wiggle room to make it more like the Doom 64 Chaingun; its either vanilla speeds or the next notch up, which is too fast.

 

About the Nightmare Cacodemons, the best usage for them would be to keep them as COOP-only monsters.  I think they could be a nice extra challenge for COOP games or solo-net players.  Otherwise they are a bit overbearing for normal gameplay, in my opinion.

 

This much is going to stay in the Dehacked - the map names, possibly some intermission texts?, the KeenDeath Cybers, the Nightmare Imps, and the Motherdemon (once it gets finished).

 

Also I will say that there's not going to be two different releases of this project.  It won't be worth the work to maintain to different branches, and it will make for a confusing release.  If someone wants to make a custom patch for it, that would be cool (lemme know about it and I'll toss a link to it in the OP).

 

@DILDOMASTER666  Alright, just give me the word whenever your ready to work on Dark Citadel, and I'll mark you down for it :)

 

@Blastfrog  I did a quick comparison between the two images, and the differences seem to be very minor (it looks like conversion differences, mostly).  I'm going to be using CoTeCiO's version since it looks a tiny bit cleaner, so you can update your titlepic with that version if you would like.

 

*edit*

 

Oh also, I have updated the names of contributors on the OP.  Now that usernames can be changed so easily, I want to make sure all of that credit information is up to date.  So if there's a name that's been changed, but hasn't been updated in the credits, please let me know!

Edited by Mechadon

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Actually, I think I prefer Werecat's version. The two seem to be identical aside from brightness, and the brighter version brings out more detail and transitions between shades are not as jarring. The truecolor version is obviously out of the question, it does not convert well to the Doom palette. I also really like how the converted version has brighter eyes.

 

 

By the way, what about incorporating these dehacked changes? They're purely cosmetic, but it fixes obvious errors such as the zombieman's firing frame not being fullbright.

 

Patch File for DeHackEd v3.0

# Note: Use the pound sign ('#') to start comment lines.

Doom version = 19
Patch format = 6


Frame 47
Duration = 4

Frame 48
Duration = 3

Frame 185
Sprite subnumber = 32773

Frame 419
Sprite subnumber = 32773

Frame 615
Sprite subnumber = 0

Frame 647
Sprite subnumber = 0

Frame 685
Sprite subnumber = 32773

Frame 687
Sprite subnumber = 32773

Frame 689
Sprite subnumber = 32773

 

Edited by Blastfrog

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Yea that's fine about the titlepic.  The changes are really subtle in the end, so it doesn't really matter to me which version is used as a base.

 

I can work in those Dehacked changes, thanks for posting it!

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If you change just few things to match Doom64 behaviour (as close as possible) it's going to be a little weird. You should change all of it or none. Or have 2 dehs.. one with just the cyberdemon death etc stuff and the other with Doom64 like behaviour.

 

Also I made these some years ago when I was making some project with Doom64 like stuff... Would any of these be useful?

 

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I have an idea for how to keep compatibility with monster replacement WADs in ZDoom and Eternity. Use a custom ZMAPINFO/EMAPINFO that explicitly sets the tag 666 behavior for the cyberdemon. That way, even if the monster is replaced (presumably without a keendeath pointer), the map will behave as intended.

 

As for compatibility with other dehacked mods, I don't think it's worth supporting those. They're old and irrelevant, people using gameplay mods are far more likely to be using mods built for advanced source ports.

 

I don't know for certain whether it would actually work, hopefully it will.

 

map whatever
{
   cyberdemonspecial
   specialaction_opendoor
}

 

By the way, the current MAPINFO ought to be renamed to ZMAPINFO and converted to the modern ZDoom MAPINFO format. There also ought to be an EMAPINFO using Eternity's format.

 

I also disagree with disabling crouching and jumping. Obviously players shouldn't be doing that anyway, but that's no reason to force them not to.

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3 hours ago, TwinBeast said:

If you change just few things to match Doom64 behaviour (as close as possible) it's going to be a little weird. You should change all of it or none. Or have 2 dehs.. one with just the cyberdemon death etc stuff and the other with Doom64 like behaviour.

 

Also I made these some years ago when I was making some project with Doom64 like stuff... Would any of these be useful?

 

I don't agree that we have to go all-or-nothing as far as additions are concerned.  Things like the new monsters have very little impact on the rest of the gameplay as a whole (the mapper can choose to use them or not).  Gameplay-changes (ie. faster firing Chaingun) are a bit different of course since that impacts the whole project, so that requires more consideration.  But I don't see any reason why we can't have a few small additions to mix things up a bit.

 

Having an alternative Dehacked patch for the Doom 64~ish gameplay changes is an ok idea though, I think.  I don't know that it's something I'll spend time on personally (I'd rather focus on a more concrete project), but if someone would like to do that, I would gladly include it as an extra.

 

Anyways, I like those weapon sprite edits!  I don't know if they are something that everyone would like to have added to the project though.  If anyone has opinions on that, chime in.  Actually if a Doom 64 behavior deh patch ever gets made, including those sprite edits with it could be pretty neat!

 

1 hour ago, Blastfrog said:

I have an idea for how to keep compatibility with monster replacement WADs in ZDoom and Eternity. Use a custom ZMAPINFO/EMAPINFO that explicitly sets the tag 666 behavior for the cyberdemon. That way, even if the monster is replaced (presumably without a keendeath pointer), the map will behave as intended.

 

...

 

By the way, the current MAPINFO ought to be renamed to ZMAPINFO and converted to the modern ZDoom MAPINFO format. There also ought to be an EMAPINFO using Eternity's format.

 

I also disagree with disabling crouching and jumping. Obviously players shouldn't be doing that anyway, but that's no reason to force them not to.

At some point I will be recreating the deh patch into DECORATE (for obituary message reasons).  That might be enough to keep gameplay mods working as intended, but I'm not sure.  However we'd still need to keep the keendeath on the Cyber in the dehacked regardless so it works in vanilla and other ports like that.

 

About the MAPINFO, I need to make sure that older ZDoom-based ports have support for the newer ZMAPINFO.  I know the older syntax works with just about everything, so that's why I tend to use it.  If pretty much everything supports ZMAPINFO these days, then I'll convert it over.

 

Also I'm going to disagree with you about disabling crouching/jumping.  For the players that may not know better (and/or may not read the readme file), it will be easy for them to use jumping and crouching and very likely break maps.  I'd say its better to disable them and then let the more experienced players re-enable them if they want.

 

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I'm strongly opposed to gameplay tweaks of any kind (not counting replaced monsters). An optional patch would be okay, but not necessary.

 

As cool as those weapon sprites are, I don't want to see them in the project (unless optional).

 

Wouldn't it be better if the nightmare imp replaced the SS guy instead of the Keen actor? And do we really need a nightmare cacodemon?

 

DECORATE is not necessary for obituaries, you can actually do it with dehacked. See Freedoom's dehacked file as an example of this.

 

Good point on the old MAPINFO format. ZDaemon (and maybe Odamex?) won't have support for it, and they're still relevant ports.

 

Also, I changed my mind about the jump/crouch, you're right, it does more good than harm and it's easily overridden.

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On 3/25/2017 at 5:33 AM, Blastfrog said:

What is the difference between @CoTeCiO's version and @Da Werecat's version of the interpic? Should my titlepic be updated accordingly?

There still seem to be some confusion about the interpic thing. I will explain this whole situation in BIG detail. In short terms, I took Da Werecat's version of the interpic and corrected the aspect ratio so it would look OK when playing the game, nothing more.

 

Why did I do this? Well, Vanilla Doom runs at 320x200 resolution, while Doom 64 runs at 320x240 (the NTSC version, approximately, I won't get into too much tech details about that "approximately" because it's unnecessary, so for the sake of simplicity, let's assume it's 320x240). The aspect ratio of Doom 64 is standard 4:3, so the game looks alright in any 4:3 screen, like pretty much any screen back in the 90's. Now, Vanilla Doom is a different case. This resolution, 320x200, was used in most PC applications back in the day and uses an odd aspect ratio (5:4 if I'm not wrong) that is stretched to 4:3 by the monitor (assuming you're using a 4:3 screen). The result of this stretching by the screen is that everything looks taller than it actually is. This is no problem for Doom because the graphics were made with this situation in mind, so they actually did the opposite process of what this screen stretching does: They made the graphics shorter vertically. That's why some graphics like the titlepic, m_doom or the intermission maps look squashed when viewed in an editor or in a source port that doesn't do this aspect ratio correction. That was the only modification I did to Da Werecat's version of the interpic, which is a palette adaptation (so it would look good when using the Doom palette) of another version of the interpic that was around the old thread. Because Doom 64 was done for 320x240, the graphic designers did not do any sort of stretching or squashing to the graphics because they looked OK already in the target screens. So, the symbol used in the interpic was a round circle. What someone did was taking that patch (it's a square) and letterboxed (added a black border around it) it to 320x200 without making any aspect ratio correction. Da Werecat corrected the colors of that picture, I corrected the aspect ratio. That's it.

 

This is the original graphic that was letterboxed to 320x200

GTC5tDV.png.8034a224c804eeae4db89cc3421bc944.png

 

This is the version that Da Werecat adapted to the Doom palette.

64PIC1.png.d1526ca6ed6557f8a2c6fa39b99567c1.png

 

If you put that version in Vanilla Doom, it looks like this:

64PIC1_stretched.png.e0c8dba8ba44c2dc5253f0052f1ed7c7.png

 

It looks too tall, it doesn't look right. So, what I did was taking that version, letterboxed it to 320x240 (added black squares at the top and the bottom to fit this new resolution) and then squashed to 320x200 using Photoshop (so the filtering done for this process was of better quality than using Paint). No color or brightness adjustment, nothing. The end result is the graphic that is currently used in the mod, which is this one:

INTERPIC.png.95507404d6bd778b65f704d550d42905.png

 

That version of the graphic looks like this in-game:

64PIC1_aspect.png.7c998258db26319d7139b96af98fad50.png

 

Pretty good! I really hope this clears up the whole interpic thing!!

 

You don't need to update your titlepic because you actually used assets from Vanilla Doom and those are already adapted to the screen stretching. So it's all good!

 

On 3/26/2017 at 11:27 PM, Blastfrog said:

Wouldn't it be better if the nightmare imp replaced the SS guy instead of the Keen actor?

The problem of using the SS guy is that he drops a clip. That behavior is hard-coded and not possible to remove. That's why they used the Keen actor instead. At least that's the reason I remember reading.

Edited by CoTeCiO : Added explanation for the Nightmare Imp replacing Keen and not the SS

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I don't remember screwing up the proportions. Or rather not doing anything about them. I'm almost as anal as Sodaholic in this regard. Oh well, most likely I didn't want to resize an already small picture.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean this pic, I meant the one made of the official cover art, i.e. the same thing, but with different lighting and "DOOM 64" written over it. Was it lost or something?

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@CoTeCiO

 

Oh, so in that case your version was already in the WAD to begin with! And yes, I was already aware that it was aspect ratio corrected, I just didn't know that Werecat's original wasn't.

 

I'm quite OCD about aspect ratios myself. When I did the 64 in both the TITLEPIC and M_DOOM, I took not only the aspect ratio into account, but the backwards tilt that the D64 logo had as well. I lined the D64 logo up as an overlay on top of the original PC Doom logo (aspect ratio corrected), then I tilted it forward until the DOOM part of the logo lined up, then I scaled the result to 5/6th size. I also had to do a lot of editing by hand to make it look acceptable and to get the colors right (and even then they're still more in D64 style than PC Doom style...).

 

The Midway logo was also sourced from the highest quality I could find and aspect ratio corrected. I took inspiration from the Absolution TC TITLEPIC, actually.

 

It'd be nice if Cage or someone else with strong talent could edit the 64 part of the logo in my TITLEPIC and M_DOOM to be cleaner/neater as well as more accurate to PC Doom style shading/coloration. I've made it look as good as I can.

 

@Da Werecat

 

I hope it can be found again, I'd like to see your version.

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Its washed-out blue parts turned to grey, IIRC, but I thought it looked acceptable at the time. Hard to say now.

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Thanks for the clarification CoTeCiO!  Some of this stuff has been a nightmare to figure out.  It's one of the downsides of suddenly taking over a project that has been in-progress for years.  I guess I'm already using the correct version in the latest build, so that's good :)

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My opinion on custom stuff like DeHackEd and what not: add in what is absolutely necessary. Honestly, the only thing that really needs to be different from vanilla Doom is the boss monster. Having a Cyberdemon or Mastermind won't cut it. Gotta have that new boss. Doesn't have to be a Mother Demon, but it has to be something fitting.

 

Everything else drifts too far from the original concept. I always liked thinking of this project as Doom 64's maps only in classic Doom vanilla style. Nothing more.

 

Just my cents or something.

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15 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

I meant the one made of the official cover art, i.e. the same thing, but with different lighting and "DOOM 64" written over it. Was it lost or something?

This one, right?

64TITLE0.png.1a20a508da48e21d31b110226df7cbc4.png

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That looks great except the gray where the blue should be in the Doom logo. Should be easy enough to translate those grays I'd imagine.

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On 3/26/2017 at 10:29 PM, Mechadon said:

Anyways, I like those weapon sprite edits!  I don't know if they are something that everyone would like to have added to the project though.  If anyone has opinions on that, chime in.

This mod can't have any sprite edits, actually. Don't forget that Vanilla Doom can't handle WADs with edited sprites unless you include EVERY sprite from the IWAD in the PWAD. That's why the -merge command was implemented in Chocolate Doom, in the first place.

 

Unless you want/don't mind people to go through the process of using DeuSF to actually merge the sprite edits into doom2.wad.

 

On 3/26/2017 at 10:29 PM, Mechadon said:

Things like the new monsters have very little impact on the rest of the gameplay as a whole (the mapper can choose to use them or not).

I think there should be consistency with what is used or not, the same with some mappers putting two health and armor bonuses on top of each other to simulate Doom 64 behavior (a health and armor bonus give you 2 health and armor points respectively instead of one) and some mappers not doing it. I think maps should be as close as possible to the originals, so mappers should use the nightmare imp where they appear in the original map, otherwise it would be inconsistent with some maps having them on it and some not.

Edited by CoTeCiO

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On 3/28/2017 at 5:36 PM, leodoom85 said:

Hi Mechadon. Is this a "Doom-ification" of Doom 64? or am I wrong?

Hello!  Your pretty much correct, this is essentially a vanilla Doom reinterpretation of Doom 64's levels with a few creative liberties taken in places (eg. for things that can't be replicated in vanilla Doom).

 

4 hours ago, CoTeCiO said:

This mod can't have any sprite edits, actually. Don't forget that Vanilla Doom can't handle WADs with edited sprites unless you include EVERY sprite from the IWAD in the PWAD. That's why the -merge command was implemented in Chocolate Doom, in the first place.

 

Unless you want/don't mind people to go through the process of using DeuSF to actually merge the sprite edits into doom2.wad.

Yea that's a good point about having new sprites.   Most likely anything like new weapon sprites should be relegated to extras (ie. a Doom 64 behavior dehacked patch that's included separately).

 

4 hours ago, CoTeCiO said:

I think there should be consistency with what is used or not, the same with some mappers putting two health and armor bonuses on top of each other to simulate Doom 64 behavior (a health and armor bonus give you 2 health and armor points respectively instead of one) and some mappers not doing it. I think maps should be as close as possible to the originals, so mappers should use the nightmare imp where they appear in the original map, otherwise it would be inconsistent with some maps having them on it and some not.

I mostly agree with you here.  As far as the doubled-up bonuses go, I think it is a good idea to keep consistency between maps.  Personally I would say that we should just keep them to 1 instead of doubling them up.  Doubling them up could present some headaches with intense screen flashes; extra bonuses could be spread out around the map if they are really needed.

 

The Nightmare Imps are a slightly different situation I think.  They aren't a 1:1 recreation of their Doom 64 counterparts, so we shouldn't expect to use them in the same exact ways.  For the most part I think they can fill the same roles well enough, but I'm hesitant to enforce a 1:1 recreation in the chance they don't fit in certain situations.

 

Speaking of the Dehacked, since that seems to be a hot subject, I just wanted to clarify a couple of things.  Some of these features, like the Nightmare Imp, were discussed early on.  Death Egg mentioned that he wanted to see these things implemented, but it was rejected by BaronOfStuff at the time.  Things like the gameplay tweaks (faster Chaingun, etc) were experimental changes that I thought we should try out first, and then decide if they added anything of value to the project.  So I just want to let everyone know that those things aren't going to be forced into the project if they are deemed unnecessary or harmful.  However per the original project's goals, there are things I'm probably going to keep around (ie. the Nightmare Imp).

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Hey Jaws In Space, talk with DILDOMASTER666 and see if he's still going to work on it.  He mentioned that he was interested in it after finishing up Blood Keep, so I've semi-signed him up for it.

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Yup!  Anything that says "Opened for Editing"  next to its name needs someone to help maintain it (fix bugs, clean up gameplay/visuals, etc).  More slots might open up in the future if the original mapper isn't interested in maintaining their map, or if they need help with certain aspects.

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Pretty sure the only difference of the D64 nightmare imp to the regular was the cloaking, hitpoints and fireball speed/colour

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3 hours ago, Jaws In Space said:

I see in the OP that Dark Citadel need someone to step in to finish it. I could do that.

 

2 hours ago, Mechadon said:

Hey Jaws In Space, talk with DILDOMASTER666 and see if he's still going to work on it.  He mentioned that he was interested in it after finishing up Blood Keep, so I've semi-signed him up for it.

 

Blood Keep is going to be a real pain in the ass. It is my primary focus and probably won't see a finished release by me any time soon. I'll happily relinquish my claim to Dark Citadel if Jaws wants it.

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