Not many people take Gzdoom to it's advantage

[ZALGO]

GZdoom has many features that gives you a way to enhance doom in so many ways (Doom starter pack has proven its capabilities before) But not many people take advantage of them. They still make the classic gameplay for doom Wads. Why is that? I know I might do classic maps gameplay as well, but that's because I'm still new to mapping and that. What do you think about the features of GZdoom and why not many people use it to their advantage in their mods?

[Voros]

People do take advantage of ZDoom features. Head over to the ZDoom forums and just look at all the mods being developed right now. D4D, D4T, Zion, Brutal Wolfenstein 3D, Bullet-Eye, Arachnocide, Brutal Doom, HDoom, etc.

Why do people make classic maps still? Because it's easy to achieve something fabulous with it. You don't need to know any DECORATE, ZScript or ACS for making simple ("simple" from a technical point of view) maps. Not to mention that it takes a considerable amount of time to learn and apply DECORATE/ZScript and/or ACS to make something worthwhile.

Also, by making a "classic" map, you have ensured that the map will run in virtually every source port out there, while making a ZDoom map can limit that to just ZDoom and its derivatives. That's another reason why people make classic maps.

Classic Doom is considered to be well balanced on its own, so classic maps tend to have fun gameplay and replayability too IMO.

[Dragonfly]

Explain what features you mean? For most people here enjoy playing Doom because it's Doom; so retaining that core doom feel to your projects is usually a good idea. So for most, myself being included here, using GZDoom allows you to have a larger pool of features such as 3D floors & dynamic lights while producing something that is still distinctly "Doom in nature".

[ZALGO]

Voros said:

People do take advantage of ZDoom features. Head over to the ZDoom forums and just look at all the mods being developed right now. D4D, D4T, Zion, Brutal Wolfenstein 3D, Bullet-Eye, Arachnocide, Brutal Doom, HDoom, etc.

Why do people make classic maps still? Because it's easy to achieve something fabulous with it. You don't need to know any DECORATE, ZScript or ACS for making simple ("simple" from a technical point of view) maps. Not to mention that it takes a considerable amount of time to learn and apply DECORATE/ZScript and/or ACS to make something worthwhile.

Also, by making a "classic" map, you have ensured that the map will run in virtually every source port out there, while making a ZDoom map can limit that to just ZDoom and its derivatives. That's another reason why people make classic maps.

Classic Doom is considered to be well balanced on its own, so classic maps tend to have fun gameplay and replayability too IMO.

I understand what you mean, It's just that it feels like a miracle when you get a new mod and it adds some great gameplay mechanics to it. I play Demonsteele, D4D, and the starter pack regularly and it makes me think of the amount of potential it could get if people were to make these more often. I don't know, it's just a thought of mine right now.

Dragonfly said:

Explain what features you mean? For most people here enjoy playing Doom because it's Doom; so retaining that core doom feel to your projects is usually a good idea. So for most, myself being included here, using GZDoom allows you to have a larger pool of features such as 3D floors & dynamic lights while producing something that is still distinctly "Doom in nature".

I mean like D4D, Brutal Doom, or Demonsteele type of gameplay features. Something about those mods just click for me. It's just my opinion though and I greatly respect the mappers who make the classic gameplay maps these days. It's just quite something that many of the great mods out their that aren't maps take great advantage of GZdoom features. It's just wishful thinking that more people could at least try their hand on these features to make their own forms of gameplay.

[Dragonfly]

Pretty much everything you listed is not a map but rather a gameplay mod.

There are hundreds and hundreds of those, but Doomworld is, for the most part, the wrong place for this. You'll find more works of this sort on the Gameplay Mods section of the ZDoom Forums.

[ZALGO]

Dragonfly said:

Pretty much everything you listed is not a map but rather a gameplay mod.

There are hundreds and hundreds of those, but Doomworld is, for the most part, the wrong place for this. You'll find more works of this sort on the Gameplay Mods section of the ZDoom Forums.

Good to know, Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to check those out in the meantime.

[Wagi]

A lot of us play Doom not because of technical constraints but becuase we like the simple, fast paced gameplay that revolves around dodging projectiles, exploring a mazelike space, and shooting down hordes of simple-minded enemies. Although GZDoom offers a ton of features that in theory might enhance Doom's gameplay, a lot modders use these editing features to change Doom's gameplay in a fundamental way that makes it undesirable to classic players.

I used to play Skulltag many moons ago. Once advanced editing features like DECORATE became mature, it opened the floodgates to gimmicky mods that had crummy graphics like Doom, but shared almost no similarities in gameplay. There wad All Out War which slowed the player's speed significantly and forced the player to navigate an overly simple and flat map full of wide-open spaces. There was Ghouls vs Humans which was more like a hide and seek game than Doom. And there are a few more that would add weapon reloading and regenerating health into the game, raising the question "Why am I playing Doom just to add a mod that makes it not Doom anymore?"

Furthermore, a lot of the graphical features simply look out of place unless they are used outside of a total conversion. Why have hyperrealisitic blood and explosions in Doom if they clash with the pixelatted sprites made in the 1990s? It's immersion-breaking, like adding a photorealistic Mario into Super Mario World.

The fact of the matter is that it's all a matter of taste.

[ZALGO]

Wagi said:

A lot of us play Doom not because of technical constraints but becuase we like the simple, fast paced gameplay that revolves around dodging projectiles, exploring a mazelike space, and shooting down hordes of simple-minded enemies. Although GZDoom offers a ton of features that in theory might enhance Doom's gameplay, a lot modders use these editing features to change Doom's gameplay in a fundamental way that makes it undesirable to classic players.

I used to play Skulltag many moons ago. Once advanced editing features like DECORATE became mature, it opened the floodgates to gimmicky mods that had crummy graphics like Doom, but shared almost no similarities in gameplay. There wad All Out War which slowed the player's speed significantly and forced the player to navigate an overly simple and flat map full of wide-open spaces. There was Ghouls vs Humans which was more like a hide and seek game than Doom. And there are a few more that would add weapon reloading and regenerating health into the game, raising the question "Why am I playing Doom just to add a mod that makes it not Doom anymore?"

Furthermore, a lot of the graphical features simply look out of place unless they are used outside of a total conversion. Why have hyperrealisitic blood and explosions in Doom if they clash with the pixelatted sprites made in the 1990s? It's immersion-breaking, like adding a photorealistic Mario into Super Mario World.

The fact of the matter is that it's all a matter of taste.

I understand man. While I do love some gameplay mods, it doesn't stop me from loving the original gameplay as well. Their are some mods that do work out from time to time (Brutal Doom comes to mind) but I still think that people can make literal games with the kind of modding capabilites we can do on Zdoom or GZdoom. Seargeant Mark is already working on Extermination Day, and it feels like a Duke Nukem game more than Doom. Again just my thoughts on this thing going on right now.

[Jayextee]

ZALGO said:

I still think that people can make literal games with the kind of modding capabilites we can do on Zdoom or GZdoom.

Like, say, Adventures of Square? Harmony?

You don't even need G/ZDoom to make a game; HACX and Chex Quest were initially vanilla (as is the amazing-looking REKKR), plus SLaVE and Hypertension - Harmony of Darkness are being made for 3DGE. Those are off the top of my head (and I cheated there because SLaVE is my own), there are probably others.

Reason you don't see 'many' people taking 'GZDoom to its advantage' is because, the more complicated a project, the more time and effort is involved. I'd know.

[Arctangent]

Wagi said:

"Why am I playing Doom just to add a mod that makes it not Doom anymore?"

This question always confused me. The only way I can interpret it is that the person asking it thinks idtech 1 engine is such shit that anything made on it is beyond hope, except Doom which is such an immaculately crafted game that it defies the laws of the universe and manages to be a good game, despite being on idtech 1.

Especially since it's such a non-question. If the mod makes it not Doom anymore, doesn't it make it, y'know, it's own thing? So, you're playing it because you want to play it? It's almost like asking "why am I playing PS2 just to add Soul Calibur 3 to it, instead of just staring as the PS2 bios screen?" except not quite as dumb.

[Four Loko Is Gross]

Arctangent said:

This question always confused me. The only way I can interpret it is that the person asking it thinks idtech 1 engine is such shit that anything made on it is beyond hope, except Doom which is such an immaculately crafted game that it defies the laws of the universe and manages to be a good game, despite being on idtech 1.

Especially since it's such a non-question. If the mod makes it not Doom anymore, doesn't it make it, y'know, it's own thing? So, you're playing it because you want to play it? It's almost like asking "why am I playing PS2 just to add Soul Calibur 3 to it, instead of just staring as the PS2 bios screen?" except not quite as dumb.

It's almost like the heretical comment "Brutal Doom is Doomier than Doom"...

Well, no, it's not... unless you take the official Doom comic book and use that as an inspiration for a Doom mod. It's a somewhat grey area, and open to interpretation.

It also hasn't worked with gzdoom for something like half a year now. Which is weird since Sergeant Mark IV made gzdoom. ;)

[Xaser]

A real answer: The venn diagram depicting skilled mappers and skilled gameplay modders has a slim intersection. Hybrid projects and collaborative overlaps exist (e.g. ZDCMP2, Square, Blade of Agony), but they're few and far between given the scope.

Real Answer #2: considering just map-only projects, it does take a lot more time to effectively utilize GZDoom features to their fullest, so the bar for entry in terms of time is raised. One of Doom's biggest strengths is being able to take something from zero to hero in a non-insane amount of time, and the effect diminishes somewhat when you go balls-to-the-wall with scripting n' effects n' whatnot.


[Not saying folks shouldn't, of course. Insert Shia LaBeouf here. :P ]

[Four Loko Is Gross]

Xaser said:

[Not saying folks shouldn't, of course. Insert Shia LaBeouf here. :P ]

What, you got something against the star of 'Dumb and Dumberer: When Harry Met Lloyd'?

*thumps fists against chest like King Kong... in a threatening, but not not antisocial or antisnowflake manner that would upset liberals*