Difference in monster speeds on nightmare and UV -fast

[idbeholdME]

If we ignore the respawning, I know that monsters on nightmare don't have 100% same speeds as with UV -fast. Some monster actions are still a little bit faster on nightmare (the difference is very small).

I've been using this MAPINFO with ZDoom to create my own optimal difficulty:

skill UV/NM hybrid
{
AmmoFactor = 1
FastMonsters
RespawnTime = 0
SpawnFilter = Nightmare
name = "UV/NM hybrid"
}

However, I've never bothered to check or verify whether this actually does make monster speeds and reaction times the same as in proper nightmare. I THINK it does, but I'm not 100% sure. My aim was to have a nightmare without the respawning and double ammo.

So I'd like to ask: does the UV/NM hybrid I defined in the MAPINFO make the monsters have proper "fast" from nightmare and not the weaker -fast parameter? I sure hope so because if not, I've been playing on this difficulty for a long time now, believing it did what I expected when in fact, it didn't.

PS.
Also, on MAPINFO there is "aggressiveness" listed in MAPINFO properties on ZDoom wiki. Can anyone clarify what does that do and is it in any way present in the original difficulties?

[vdgg]

Test it with hr.wad MAP18. At the start, step to the cyber's side. If the cyber kills you, it's nightmare.

[CapnClever]

I don't know anything about MAPINFO but "aggressiveness" is definitely what I would call the tendency of Nightmare enemies to attack more often. To be brief, enemies with Nightmare levels of aggression will attack you all the time if you're in range and sight. I'd play around with that variable: that alone is usually what I attribute Nightmare difficulty to, whereas respawn is mostly problematic if you have to backtrack and fast projectiles/demons only in niche cases (like E1M3). Hitscanners are just the worst with enhanced aggression.

[idbeholdME]

vdgg said:

Test it with hr.wad MAP18. At the start, step to the cyber's side. If the cyber kills you, it's nightmare.

The cyberdemon does always start shooting and doesn't teleport away. I remember having extreme trouble with the start of this level on this difficulty. I first finished it by cheating at the start and waiting for the cyber to leave (as was intended) BUT I later returned to it as it was triggering me that I didn't finish the level without cheating. If you keep trying enough times, it is possible even with nightmare monster speeds. You have to finish the previous level with 200 health and amor and then you can 2 shot him with BFG before he kills you if you maneuver correctly and don't get hit by any of the rockets directly. You will barely survive but it IS possible. I think. It's been some time since I played HR, but I think I remember it correctly. Might still have a save there, will check when I get home.

CapnClever said:

I don't know anything about MAPINFO but "aggressiveness" is definitely what I would call the tendency of Nightmare enemies to attack more often. To be brief, enemies with Nightmare levels of aggression will attack you all the time if you're in range and sight. I'd play around with that variable: that alone is usually what I attribute Nightmare difficulty to, whereas respawn is mostly problematic if you have to backtrack and fast projectiles/demons only in niche cases (like E1M3). Hitscanners are just the worst with enhanced aggression.

Fast projectiles and demons is what makes the game interesting for me. I've been playing with it for years now and I couldn't go back to standard speed monsters anymore. Feels absolutely sluggish. What I'm trying to make sure of is that I have the full power of the fast monsters from nightmare and not just the very slightly weaker UV -fast. Again, the actual difference is some more ticks on certain actions, mere fractions of a second, but it is important to me to play on full fast monsters.
Can I assume that aggressiveness is on max value on nightmare?

[CapnClever]

I tried vdgg's test with the Cyberdemon at the beginning of HR map18. In Chocolate Doom, "-skill 4 -fast" parameters cause him to teleport away, whereas "-skill 5" causes him to attack immediately. In ZDoom, both "-skill 4 -fast" and "-skill 5" cause him to attack immediately.

That said, having FastMonsters in that skill definition is most likely doing what you want: I'd guess that turning up Aggressiveness to 1.0 would be redundant.

[scifista42]

idbeholdME said:

My aim was to have a nightmare without the respawning and double ammo.

Then just copy the definition of the Nightmare difficulty from zdoom.pk3, change its name, remove the AmmoFactor and RespawnTime commands, and possibly change SpawnFilter.

[vita]

idbeholdME said:

Some monster actions are still a little bit faster on nightmare (the difference is very small).

No. chocolate-doom/src/doom/g_game.c:1810—1817:

    if (fastparm || (skill == sk_nightmare && gameskill != sk_nightmare) )
    {
	for (i=S_SARG_RUN1 ; i<=S_SARG_PAIN2 ; i++)
	    states[i].tics >>= 1;
	mobjinfo[MT_BRUISERSHOT].speed = 20*FRACUNIT;
	mobjinfo[MT_HEADSHOT].speed = 20*FRACUNIT;
	mobjinfo[MT_TROOPSHOT].speed = 20*FRACUNIT;
    }

[scifista42]

But the OP is talking about ZDoom, not vanilla.

By the way, "skill == sk_nightmare && gameskill != sk_nightmare"? What's the difference between "skill" and "gameskill"?

[SaladBadger]

skill is the skill level being set for a new game (this is in G_InitNew), gameskill is of course the global skill variable. that comparison makes sure the skill wasn't already nightmare so it doesn't speed up the demons again.

it was a valiant effort, but of course some nonsense with savegames can result in the demons getting sped up (or slowed down) multiple times, heh

[idbeholdME]

CapnClever said:

I tried vdgg's test with the Cyberdemon at the beginning of HR map18. In Chocolate Doom, "-skill 4 -fast" parameters cause him to teleport away, whereas "-skill 5" causes him to attack immediately. In ZDoom, both "-skill 4 -fast" and "-skill 5" cause him to attack immediately.

That said, having FastMonsters in that skill definition is most likely doing what you want: I'd guess that turning up Aggressiveness to 1.0 would be redundant.

Thanks for testing. That would imply that in ZDoom, UV -fast and nightmare are actually the same.

scifista42 said:

Then just copy the definition of the Nightmare difficulty from zdoom.pk3, change its name, remove the AmmoFactor and RespawnTime commands, and possibly change SpawnFilter.

I think that is how I did it originally. Took the nightmare example from the bottom of this page on ZDoom wiki:
https://zdoom.org/wiki/MAPINFO/Skill_definition

and changed it to the one I posted before.

InsanityBringer said:

skill is the skill level being set for a new game (this is in G_InitNew), gameskill is of course the global skill variable. that comparison makes sure the skill wasn't already nightmare so it doesn't speed up the demons again.

it was a valiant effort, but of course some nonsense with savegames can result in the demons getting sped up (or slowed down) multiple times, heh

I remember that happening in Doom 95. If fast monsters was on and then a save was loaded, demons and spectres would kill you instantly the moment you alerted them. That was actually a reason I started looking for solutions and found ZDoom.