Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Battle_Korbi

Principle of friendlies in Doom

Recommended Posts

Just a topic I am currently thinking about.

The Doom franchise is proud with their "one-man army" thingy they have in their games. One bad dude, armed with many guns, out to survive, then to save the world. As much as this concept sounds quite good in theory, but to me (probably spoiled by newer games), that sounds a bit... bland, and most likely felt illogical to me at some point.

Lets go game from game here: In the first Doom game, all the plot ever tells you is that you are the last guy to survive from your recon team (or whatever), and you are battling to survive and escape the ever-growing threat of demons. You wind up on Deimos, then in Hell itself, you battle the big guy and you are back on Earth, only to find out that it got worse. The ending in itself plants a seed for a worthy sequel, known as Doom 2.

Alright, from here, you travel from bases and cities, with the demons corrupting the place further you go, reshuffling houses and buildings to their whim. You fight to stop the invasion, but the baddies are still here, and so you fight all the way over to the Big Baddie aka Johny the Wall Monster, you win, it smashes up hell, yaay!

Doom 3 is a rerun of the same scenario, but more realistic, more updated and more scary. There are baddies everywhere, but also... stuff what they did, and people who they had missed, the survivors. This, coupled with the lore hunting, is what selled the game to me. Call me a spoiled brat who expected a story out of a old demon-hunting, blood spilling, gun shooting game franchise out of a game franchise called Doom, but I have just done that. I like finding more about the game world I am in, so my ideal game design point is lore hunting and gathering, and my ideal game wouldn't leave that out. Descriptive text, background dialogue, heck, even wall writings and developer's commentary would do, anything I can read and explore. Which is why the first two Doom games were such a hassle in the first place. They offered the minimum of story, gave you a gun, and shoot. id Software did something for lore-hungry gamers, gave them intermission texts, some sort of map at every level exit and entrance, to give the player a sense of progress, and to show how much of the story is left.

I can give the game a credit for the technological breakthrough it offered and all, but the logic and point of the first two games was simply put, ridiculous(the map designs were the biggest violators of this). I am aware that old gamers were not used to common sense when regarding video games (just look at the "realism" of the games of that era), so when playing Doom, they probably didn't bothered with "why is this and why is that" and more likely gazed and enjoyed looking at scenery of the game, shooting to the rhytm, gliding along the explosive pace of the game.

Enter one and a half decade later, a young gamer like me is looking at the game and going "what the fuck". Yeah, the gameplay was great, shooting was quite refined, as I really blasted and shot throughout the levels all the way to the finale. Somewhere, behind in the back of my mind, a voice was looking at everything I played and wondered about stuff like:

"Why is there a pool of acid in a hangar?"

"How come the supposed military base looks exactly like this?"

"What is this place even? A library? Why is it so damn dark? Ugh, these teleporters make no sense"

And much more.

And this is where the main point of this "thing-I-am-currently-thinking-about-essay-like-stuff-research-whatever".

In the first game, I had this constant vibe that after I fight all the baddies, I am going to see a friendly face. I was constantly thinking that the game is going to reward me at some point, when besides mine, there would be another gun in someone's arms, and those arms would be of a ally. Heck, I even thought that in the finale of both games a reinforcement squad would teleport in and help me out.

And no one came.

id did a good job on making the player feel like he was the last man on Earth all the time, and it did a good job at baiting me into feeling that I would get some sort of help, or see some scientist or civilian, someone who won't attack you. The intermission texts promised me that I would be able to see Doomguy hanging out with his Doombro or Doomgal or Daisy 2 even, even if it was a picture at the end of the game, with a silly "The End" on it and nothing more. Seeing a ending like that would sure be a little comforting. But no, they based a whole franchise on the one-man army thing. Whenever it was difficulties in the game design, or being technically impossible to import a friendly into such game, I don't really care. Even worse offenders of this are vanilla megawads which just drive that feeling of "fuck, you're the only dude left here, sorry man" without intermission texts explaining anything more than with context of "there is a switch somewhere that will do something. Rip 'n' tear", & I really hoped to see at least "we are orbit bombing this place, watchout fo dat" and even if I could get killed by fellow humans, at least I wouldn't be some lonely space cowboy.

Which is why I smiled like a idiot when I started playing Doom 3. Mars City was finally a city, filled with ordinary people like soldiers, scientists and workies going on with their day, and you could pause by, read some logs, and watch the TV. Even if later it got all fucked up, at least I could feel how fucked up it was hearing people screaming for help, getting possessed, when hell really breaks loose. I know, advanced tech and all, they couldn't really do that in the original Doom games. Yeah, I know about that, but still, Doom 3 really felt to me like a proper Doom game. A game about people being fucked over by demons and you have to save the day. That was all the old games missed. People being fucked over. Yeah, there are corpses everywhere, strung up and gored, but where was I when that happened? The shock value would double if the player noticed a civilian hiding in some closet, then when you return later he is strung up and gored and there are baddies around him responsible for that. This is why I generally prefer Doom 3. When you saved people, you know who you saved and from what you saved them. While Doom 2's intermission screens said that your actions saved plenty of people, that sounded like merchant's talk to me. In Doom 3, you know you have done something worthwile once you know who it was for.

That is why I secretly hoped Doom 4 would be a "Hell on Earth" scenario re-run, with the player tasked of finding civilians and rescuing them, tracking down weaponery, securing locations and whatnot. I had this grandiose vision of a total war going on, with every street either being filled with corpses or flying bullets and fireballs. Tanks vs Mancubi. BFG Tanks vs Cybies. A mix of the Hell's armies of the first two games and the Space Marines of the third. Trench-fightning, search & destroy, with the horror factor lying in seeing civilians getting gored or a random base assault starting with explosions and zombies. Buildings in flames, sky fighters & helicopters duking it out with the cacos, a bloody sunset on the horizon. Literally that, Hell on Earth.

I have never got to play Doom 4 (because of my poor PC), but I really enjoyed the gameplay videos, the soundtrack is amazing, and the lore is quite of a nice twist on the usual things going on in Doom. But alas, not too many friendlies, and those who are alive aren't usually nice. Which is why I kind of hope to see Doom 5 on Earth, with some of the elements I have mentioned above.

But this thread would never exist without something I have been experimenting on these two days.

I have found a .wad which enables scripted marines to be friendly. Specifically, it is this wad ( http://htfvalley.deviantart.com/art/Doom-Friendly-Marines-Mod-296640942 ), as I use Slade 3 to make maps, maps being based on Zdoom. So I unload this wad into another empty wad of my own, made MAP01, made some basic barricades, placed a rocketeer on top of one tall tower, placed a plasma gun in front of player spawn with some ammo, placed health all around, added the other friendly marines, added corridors of enemies, a small bunker with a chaingunner, and a switch for a map exit. Starting the map... and by the time I finished it I was filled with that exploratory feeling I had as a kid. Having friendly marines, really changed the game. The rocketeer bombing the demons, friendly chaingunner firing at the zeddites, the player had to eliminate the bigger baddies like the chaingun dude and a Hell Baron near the exit switch. It added this feeling of teamplay, and a feeling like some total war which has been going around for thousands of years, in which both sides demonized the other to the point of making them literal monsters. I started pumping out maps testing out scenarios, like bombardment by rocketeers (extremely funny to me), demon closets and friendly closets, railgun trench sniping from above, bunker invasion (my favorite, having to dodge friendly rockets while firing at the enemy, really pumped me up). I am getting so fascinated, I made 4 maps in a hour! Yeah, they aren't really detailed, but to my eye, the brick corridors look like underground tunnels, bricky barricades being sandbags and whatnot. And, being a aspiring writer, I made a .txt file describing the plot of each map "You have to storm this bunker..." "You have to make it to the other side of the battlefield..." and whatnot. I plan on adding some castle maps, a trench raid, some town maps with friendlies and enemies both on rooftops and down in the town's streets, battleships, civilian protecting, point holding and a lot more. I haven't been this pumped with creative juices since Warcraft 3's World Editor. And the game gets more brutal when on Nightmare! mode. Yeah, enemies are more tough and are quicker and constantly respawning, but so do your buddies, as it creates a total mayhem in the end with rocketeer's pumping out rockets like its no tommorow, with plasma fighters spilling liters of blood, with the forever attacking hordes on hell in the closest trench near you, with shotguneers trying to contain a swarming corridor. And I am still wondering, why didn't Doomers think of friendlies beforehand? I mean, I have seen people doing 3d models in a 2.5d game, but couldn't think of some friendly dudes? I know I know, some popular mods add friendlies, but those are most likely turrets or single marines or some converted monster. I wonder how the fuck people keep skipping on the potential of friendly marines in custom doom .wads. Is it for the one-man army element? Is that the main selling point of Doom?

Fuck, this turned out from what intended to be a nice essay into a rant. Eh, whatever. If Doom was indeed a game in which you can make anything happen if you know what are you doing, how come not many people haven't thought of making total war scenarios. Kudos for those who did, and I have played a lot of wads with friendlies in. I think that the problem lies mostly in execution. Vanilla maps aren't really made with that in mind, but I hope I can at least pretty up this experimental wad and ship it to the internet, crediting whoever made that mod (many props to you man), and making you guys think again about making similar mods.

Thanks for tolerating my shit.

Share this post


Link to post

There was no technical limitation back then that prevented them from incorporating NPCs, it was simply a conscious design decision.

It's in direct opposition to fun, when you lose because you didn't babysit AI Marine Dudeguy #203 and he died.

On the other hand, if it was made easier to babysit so as to alleviate the frustration of losing, and battles between NPCs required little to no player influence, then the player is left with a sense of insignificance.

Share this post


Link to post
Vorpal said:

There was no technical limitation back then that prevented them from incorporating NPCs, it was simply a conscious design decision.


I think you are giving them too much credit. I rather believe it was a decision to keep the game logic as simple as possible. It may not have been a technical limitation but it would have cost time and money to do a game design that can handle friendlies well.

Share this post


Link to post

The comments I made about "fun" or whatever are my own thoughts, from playing other games that do feature NPCs as part of the gameplay.

I dunno the reason why id didn't do it, but it wasn't for lack of ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Battle_Kirby said:

I am aware that old gamers were not used to common sense when regarding video games (just look at the "realism" of the games of that era)

Common sense is amorphous: it is not universal across all cultures, and it certainly isn't universal over time. You know what "common sense" prevailed 10 years prior to Doom? Pac-Man. Galaga. Donkey Kong. Centipede. Mario Bros. Did any of these games attempt even an smidgen of a dramatic, tension-filled plot? No. And they didn't need it: the objective of the game was to get good, get far, and achieve a high score.

I would call Doom a home-adapted arcade game: finally getting rid of the "common sense" of lives and points (that even Wolfenstein 3D had) but still fast-paced action and very little in the way of the player and their game. And that's what I love about it! Sometimes I barely register the aesthetic and instead consider the game entirely through its gameplay. I don't care "why am I doing this" because I don't think of it as a significant question to ask: instead I ask "how should I handle this encounter" or "why am I having trouble with this enemy".

It's not that video games shouldn't attempt to tell a story or provide motivation: there are examples of even arcade games that do this well (Ghosts 'n Goblins, various beat 'em ups). The original 1993 Doom just wasn't built for it, and Id Software in general didn't create such games until Doom 3 (or arguably Quake II). Often I see games, even entire genres, sacrifice enjoyable and interesting gameplay just to tell a story (puzzle-centric adventure games, JRPGs). It's really hard to develop a profitable game that tries to do everything well, and far rarer back then to see it pulled off successfully. Given the pragmatic choice, I ask for good gameplay, because I play video games for the game and not for the story, though I often will prefer a game that does both well.

More to the point:

Battle_Kirby said:

Somewhere, behind in the back of my mind, a voice was looking at everything I played and wondered about stuff like:

"Why is there a pool of acid in a hangar?"

"How come the supposed military base looks exactly like this?"

"What is this place even? A library? Why is it so damn dark? Ugh, these teleporters make no sense"

And much more.

Do you need to be directly told the answer to these questions? Perhaps it's more interesting to try to answer them for yourself.

For example, the teleporters in the first episode (the few that show up) are all drawn into the ground and are all one-way, with their consistent pentagram motif also appearing in the massive room for the episode's boss fight. The proceeding teleporter, designed quite differently from what the player has seen thus far, takes you into a pitch-black area as your life whittles away to nothing, until you're dumped into the second episode. From here on out, all the teleporters are compactly and neatly designed, pentagrams still traced in but certainly more detailed, and often work two-way. Maybe all of that's a coincidence, but it also tells a story, don't you think?

Usually when I like story in my game, it's because the story is shown (or voluntarily given) rather than told. Sometimes it's fruitless to search for a method in an abstract madness, but sometimes there's a nuanced outline of what everything is about, requiring critical thinking and a creative mindset to delve into. Doom doesn't have a lot of that going for it, but there's enough when you really stare at it.

Anyway, to bring it back, if you can stuff friendlies into the battle in an army vs. army scenario and have fun with it, then by golly you should do that. I'll just say that many people play Doom because of what it is and not what it could have been (though I mean that on the fundamental level, as there is plenty of proof in editing and dehacking for many "could have been"s on a more minor scale). I have no doubt, however, that you'll also find plenty that will thoroughly enjoy your own vision.

PS: I know that virtually nothing about this post covers "principles of friendlies in Doom" and I'll probably make another post discussing that. Just wanted to cover some of the OP's thoughts first.

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, because NPCs worked really well in Daikatana. NPCs as a concept belong to an entirely different genre of games.

Kinda reminds me of one infamous old review of Doom, obviously written by a guy whose butter and bread were RPGs and adventure games, and just tried to shoehorn
Doom into that logic.

Share this post


Link to post

The enjoyment of all media is based on one key element: immersion. Immersion comes in many forms. In a good action movie, the viewer is drawn into the plot, or aligns with the good guys (or bad guys). Or, maybe the viewer becomes fascinated by the visuals. In some way or another, we become willing pseudo-participants in whatever media we are enjoying. We know we are in the background, yet we somehow suspend reality in a way that lets us experience the environment and the characters, almost as if we were standing there.

In a game like Pac-Man, it's the mechanic of simple movement, and the apparently simple task of avoiding the ghosts. The player become immersed in those elements, regardless of the simple graphics, and non-existent plot.

Each person is sensitive to different types of immersion. For example, Vorpal, (and many others) connect with the mechanics of movement, with the enacting of revenge, with survival - that is the immersion.

But, all is not lost, for you, Battle_Kirby, and those of us that want to connect on other levels of immersion as well. With modding nowadays, Doom can have a storyline imposed upon it, allowing the player to become immersed in the characters and plot, as well as the more visceral emotion level. This can be done easily, but can it be pulled off?

The thing about immersion is that it can be easily lost. Nothing kills immersion quicker than being unfaithful to it's "science". For example, when your favorite character in a movie says something idiotic or ridiculous. Or when Doom II gives you a wall as a final boss :) (Yeah, it was somewhat cool, but, whatever.)

What I mean is, if you're going to add a storyline to Doom, you now have 2 levels of immersion, so you have twice the chance to lose immersion. This storyline should be congruent and "make sense" throughout the whole game.

For example, if you're going to make a "western" Doom, with a big story, you'd better not give the player a BFG. Or add an imp. Unless you're going for a "space western", which would have to be really crazy good to capture my imagination :)

So, in short, yes, Pac-Man, Doom/Doom II are valid ideas with minimal story, and can immerse the player on a mechanical level, and a survival/revenge level, so they are fun.

And, yes, Doom 3 is also a valid idea, and is fun, as it can be immersive on multiple levels.

And, finally, if any one of these "immersion hooks" fails to captivate the player, and draw him/her in, the enjoyment of the entire game will suffer, as it hurls the player back to reality. Doom avoided this issue, by connecting with the player in one way, really well.

Share this post


Link to post

Too much text in this thread; sorry if I'm only going to reply to the title.

There are some problems with Doom friendlies:
1) you need to tell them apart from enemies
2) if MBF, they have interesting behaviour, but tend to hit back if mistakenly harmed by player

I'm struggling to make them useful as weapons (summoned monsters) but usually they work more as distractions against the stronger monsters, than real danger. Meanwhile, friendly archviles are OP.

Share this post


Link to post

Good news: the entire game industry have veered towards your viewpoint for the last 21 years. There are a bunch of franchises that are little more than follow your AI companion to the indicated objective, and they sell millions (COD, Battlefield, to name the most famous ones).

Bad news: you picked one of the few game series that's the exception to this rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Phml said:

Bad news: you picked one of the few game series that's the exception to this rule.


Surprisingly, Doom 3 has one of the best, most functional and non-invasive examples of "sidekicks": the sentry bots. They do their job, and either end up destroyed or park up in their little spots after they're done. Interaction with other characters is mostly passive and no aspect of the game depends on player decisions regarding them. Just kill the Demons and pick the occasional PDA.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm gonna have to agree with the babysitting thing. On Quake 4, there was mission with a medic and a soldier (?). Everytime the medic seemed to die, so I would just load up the savegame over and over again just so he could get out alive for once. Annoying thing to do.

The beauty of having no allies is that you'll be focused on self reliance. No "I wonder if he/she is safe" or "gotta make sure my ally is safe for the next zone" thoughts crapping your mind. You know your alone, no one's coming, and you have a flicker of a chance to get out by yourself. Simple, and simplicity makes things easier most of the time (this case it does).

If the NPC is a good one that doesn't get in your way, like the sentry bots of Doom 3, then I'm fine. But it's Doom and I want to kill them all myself whenever I get the chance, because that's why I have the shotgun in my hands and why the demons appear in front of me. They were made to get slayed by me.

The sentry bots of Doom 3 only made my life easier for a short amount of time, and I took it because given the nature of Doom 3, I needed all the help I can get. Allies, IMO, are helpful for situations where you need to get rid of an obstacle or need directions/proper access. The sentry bots did just that and left me to my devices when the deed was done. Forever grateful you'll be to them, just for appearing when you feel like taking a break/saving ammo for the bigger threat.

Also there's no point in saving the NPCs in Doom 3. They die anyway.

I prefer NPC allies only, ONLY, for the tough situations where doing it yourself is a bit too much. I would like an ally to help me clear out a hallway stuffed with strong enemies and then leave, rather than having him stick by my side throughout the whole story.

But, I would love to go through a story with an actual human as my ally, because computer AI just doesn't cut it for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Voros said:

But, I would love to go through a story with an actual human as my ally, because computer AI just doesn't cut it for me.


that's what co-op is for!

Share this post


Link to post

The thoughts and ideas in OP was inspiring. I like to not make a protagonist the sole hero of everything, even if it would have no effect on gameplay. If you could see some struggles you're not a part of in the background. That would be climatic.

I like how the link led me through deviant art, you tube and media fire before raeching the destination. Felt like a journey.

Share this post


Link to post

A'ight, I have only got to read replies about now. Never thought this would get noticed, so I will adress a few points I have made much more clear.

The marines I am currently experimenting/having fun with are nothing more than mooks on your side. If he takes down a demon, good, if it dies, too bad, I'll step in with a bigger gun and see if it works. Ideally, friendlies would be just that. Expendables, but on your side and kind of helping you. And more ideally, without any escort missions or stuff, unless you beef up whoever gets escorted with nicer guns and armor. Also, I think it would really be fun if you would be the one that gets escorted for a change, just imagine that scenario, imagine there is a BFG division somewhere waiting for you to signal off, open the big door so they could pour in, and see them take down mooks after mooks.

Alas, if id could put several pages of lore-worthy info into Commander Keen and other games, why not do something for Doom? Even if it as simple one page that says "You're a space marine stationed here, but demunz attak and you kill" and whatever, I would be fine. Plus, imagine all your megawads with descriptions like that. Yeah I know, if the wad author wanted you to read something, he would put it in a .txt file! Well whatever, what if I wanted pictures? I know Doom is a arcade-like game, but still, a bit of lore wouldn't hurt right?

Ironically, I am a FPS gamer. I outright hate jrpgs, kind of like strategy and tactical games, but I like to shoot guns the most. If not guns, swing swords, thrust spears, pull punches and whatever. Just something I could listen thrash metal to.

The main point of my rant is how apparently everyone I ever met who is a Doom fan, dislikes Doom 3 for having actual breathing humans, even if 99% of them are expendables who won't give you a game over if they die. Instead, it would be just... a bit tougher. Like that part where you walk along a scientist with a lantern and you have to take down demons stalking from the dark. If the scientist dies, too bad, you are in dark, but that doesn't neccesarily mean you have to load a older save if he dies (unless you want to of course, ah, the freedom of choice). You can still shoot-and-scoot through the level.

So, to short up: I do not want babysitting missions as well (unless its well executed and fun), but what would you lose if you try to play as one of the soldiers in the front, rather than a lone guy? My ideal friendlies in such a old game would be as expendable as mooks themselves, but would be extremely helpful when the player is placed against impossible odds. Also, it could be fun to watch for those interested. And if watching is not a thing for you, join in and open fire. Also, the friendly fire would have to be on, but I would make this a toggleable option for those not interested. But heck, part of the fun I had while experimenting was trying to see where did that rockeeter pointed his launcher at, so I don't get wrecked trying to clean a path up front.

Why everyone thinks I am in favor of making friendlies some super important game guys? Why didn't anyone thought I just wanted a sentient cloud of guns on my side? Hmm... Well, I hope this reply clears some stuff up for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Battle_Kirby said:

The marines I am currently experimenting/having fun with are nothing more than mooks on your side. If he takes down a demon, good, if it dies, too bad, I'll step in with a bigger gun and see if it works. Ideally, friendlies would be just that. Expendables, but on your side and kind of helping you. And more ideally, without any escort missions or stuff, unless you beef up whoever gets escorted with nicer guns and armor. Also, I think it would really be fun if you would be the one that gets escorted for a change, just imagine that scenario, imagine there is a BFG division somewhere waiting for you to signal off, open the big door so they could pour in, and see them take down mooks after mooks.

Alas, if id could put several pages of lore-worthy info into Commander Keen and other games, why not do something for Doom? Even if it as simple one page that says "You're a space marine stationed here, but demunz attak and you kill" and whatever, I would be fine. Plus, imagine all your megawads with descriptions like that. Yeah I know, if the wad author wanted you to read something, he would put it in a .txt file! Well whatever, what if I wanted pictures? I know Doom is a arcade-like game, but still, a bit of lore wouldn't hurt right?

Why everyone thinks I am in favor of making friendlies some super important game guys? Why didn't anyone thought I just wanted a sentient cloud of guns on my side? Hmm... Well, I hope this reply clears some stuff up for you.

Have you tried Counter Strike 1.6? I remember it had escort mission maps, although it seems they are rarely made.

Doom's lore is deviously simple and vastly conplex, because it makes the player ask many questions, and said questions are never answered but small clues tend to be given. These clues are not enough to a legit answer. Lets take a look at the story of Doom:

Demons invade Phobos due to UAC fuckup. Doomguy forced to stay back while the squad goes in. Dolmguy gets no response from the squad for a number of hours, so goes in himself with the pistol. Eventually Doomguy has to fight the Bruiser Brothers, the ones responsible for Phobos... He appears on Deimos, the moon floating over Hell itself, and continues cleansing the facility, until the Cyberdemon comes in. Doomguy kills it... Doomguy rapples down into Hell itself after getting to edge... Doomguy encounters the Spider Mastermind and kills it then goes back to Earth...Earth's been invaded, Doomguy works his way through the the facility on Earth until he encounters his hometown in an urban city. It's been destroyed and populated by demons, Doomguy kills them. The only to stop the invasion is apparently by closing portal, via from the inside aka Hell. Doomguy does so, finds the Icon of Sin and kills it. Upon which he goes back to Earth... Years later, after the Phobos and Deimos bases were destroyed via nuclear strike. A Mother Demon survived and resurrected the demons over time under the radar until the number of demons were noticeable by the UAC. The corporation calls out to Doomguy, as he was the only one that survived Phobos and Deimos. He goes in to relieve his nightmares once more. Upon encountering the Mother Demon, he kills it and decides to stay in Hell forever rather than go back to Earth, to ensure the demons don't open the portal once more and cause another ruckus.

It's like that saying where a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case, a single page opened up a world of endless possibilities for the universe of Doom. Much more effective, if you ask me.

Computers are not sentient.

It's solely upto your tastes. You like having simple gun buddies? Cool, nothing wrong with that. Whether they are effective, in your terms, is questionable.

Share this post


Link to post
Voros said:

It's like that saying where a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case, a single page opened up a world of endless possibilities for the universe of Doom. Much more effective, if you ask me.

Computers are not sentient.

It's solely upto your tastes. You like having simple gun buddies? Cool, nothing wrong with that. Whether they are effective, in your terms, is questionable.


I guess Doom wasnt really designed with a story in mind, which is why I feel sad for Tom Hall's ideas and the Doom Bible. I really liked the story, even if it wasn't original, one thing I learned as a aspiring writer is that barely any idea is original, however, most points go to the guy who makes the execution of that idea the best.

Uhh, I kinda used the wrong word there yeah, but the point of this experiment/fun is to prove the effectiveness of friendlies in all possible scenarios I could think of. I think on releasing the .wad once all maps are done and once all walls become something else than usual brick walls Slade starts sectors with. So far, so dammnn good! At least to me.

Share this post


Link to post

In all honesty I think you'd be better off trying System shock, Blood or Shadow warrior where the story is slightly less "abstract". Notice I put abstract in parenthesis because am sure it is just shitty story development and nothing else. A last minute quick let's make it cool! (Yes I know about the doom bible but that isn't really the final game)

Hell the ending screen of doom 1 completely pretends you didn't get fucked by zombies\imps at the end of the level haha. Doomguy totally didn't revive somehow (Snowflake super hero, puny humans become zombies or lose their soul forever!).

It is natural for doom 3's story to wreck the original's story. It has more writing than demons killed everyone but you are super man and will kill them all.

There are many FPS games with way better story than what we got. COD isn't one I'd use.. Portal (Killing turrets counts right?) or Bioshock series please.

Share this post


Link to post
Pegg said:

Hell the ending screen of doom 1 completely pretends you didn't get fucked by zombies\imps at the end of the level haha.

Yeah, I'm sure dying and getting sent to Hell is a pretty big ass pull when your hero get filled with lead and fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Arctangent said:

Yeah, I'm sure dying and getting sent to Hell is a pretty big ass pull when your hero get filled with lead and fire.


Well everyone else that died had their bodies possessed by demon souls. Doomguy dies and somehow manages to fully retains his willpower and body. Unless of course everything after episode is spiritual torture while the real earth saver is the marine from Doom 2.

Share this post


Link to post

I agree to a certain extent. However, Romero has stated many times that he is a big fan of abstract level design, and that's what they set to do from the beginning. The results, of course, speak for themselves!

In the end DOOM is such a magical game because it allowed a whole community to mod it and create their own worlds basically since the time it was released.
Often times the community provides those "somethings" that the original games may lack.

Share this post


Link to post
Pegg said:

Well everyone else that died had their bodies possessed by demon souls. Doomguy dies and somehow manages to fully retains his willpower and body.

See, that's the thing: he might not've, and everything after episode 1 might have him in the same sort of spiritual-biological bodies the demons have, which we can assume everyone in Hell is given and everyone else was just killed or tossed into a torture pit.

If you assume that Doom 4 Guy is the Doom Guy from pre-Doom 3 games, then that could be an explanation for why he hasn't died from old age despite being sealed away for so long: he's technically a tortured soul from Hell, and considering Hell is supposed to be a type of eternal torment it wouldn't really make sense if those didn't have a body to torture nor would it makes sense for them to die of old age after a certain amount of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Arctangent said:

See, that's the thing: he might not've, and everything after episode 1 might have him in the same sort of spiritual-biological bodies the demons have, which we can assume everyone in Hell is given and everyone else was just killed or tossed into a torture pit.

If you assume that Doom 4 Guy is the Doom Guy from pre-Doom 3 games, then that could be an explanation for why he hasn't died from old age despite being sealed away for so long: he's technically a tortured soul from Hell, and considering Hell is supposed to be a type of eternal torment it wouldn't really make sense if those didn't have a body to torture nor would it makes sense for them to die of old age after a certain amount of time.


no, john. you ARE the demons.

Share this post


Link to post

You don't need scripted marines, you can also open any map in an editor and give the Friendly flag to some of the enemies :D

Infighting!!!

Share this post


Link to post

Having read Battle_Kirby's posts, there appear to be two ideas in play here:

  1. Doom would have been better with some plot
  2. Doom would have been better with NPCs
You can easily provide for one without the other (and the argument never seems to combine the two together). If all you're looking for something similar to Keen or Wolf3D, the game manual's got #1 covered:
Spoiler

The Story So Far

You're a space marine, one of Earth's toughest, hardened in combat and trained for action. Three years ago you assaulted a superior officer for ordering his soldiers to fire upon civilians. He and his body cast were shipped to Pearl Harbor, while you were transferred to Mars, home of the Union Aerospace Corporation.

The UAC is a multi-planetary conglomerate with radioactive waste facilities on Mars and its two moons, Phobos and Deimos. With no action for fifty million miles, your day consisted of suckin' dust and watchin' restricted flicks in the rec room.

For the last four years the military, UAC's biggest supplier, has used the remote facilities on Phobos and Deimos to conduct various secret projects, including research on inter-dimensional space travel. So far they have been able to open gateways between Phobos and Deimos, throwing a few gadgets into one and watching them come out the other. Recently however, the Gateways have grown dangerously unstable. Military "volunteers" entering them have either disappeared or been stricken with a strange form of insanity -- babbling vulgarities, bludgeoning anything that breathes, and finally suffering an untimely death of full-body explosion. Matching heads with torsos to send home to the folks became a full-time job. Latest military reports state that the research is suffering a small set-back, but everything is under control.

A few hours ago, Mars received a garbled message from Phobos. "We require immediate military support. Something fraggin' evil is coming out of the Gateways! Computer systems have gone berserk!" The rest was incoherent. Soon afterwards, Deimos simply vanished from the sky. Since then, attempts to establish contact with either moon have been unsuccessful.

You and your buddies, the only combat troop for fifty million miles were sent up pronto to Phobos. You were ordered to secure the perimeter of the base while the rest of the team went inside. For several hours, your radio picked up the sounds of combat: guns firing, men yelling orders, screams, bones cracking, then finally, silence. Seems your buddies are dead.

It's Up To You

Things aren't looking too good. You'll never navigate off the planet on your own. Plus all the heavy weapons have been taken by the assault team leaving you with only a pistol. If only you could get your hands around a plasma rifle or even a shotgun you could take a few down on your way out. Whatever killed yourbuddies deserves a couple of pellets in the forehead. Securing your helmet, you exit the landing pod. Hopefully you can find more substantial firepower somewhere within the station.

As you walk through the main entrance of the base, you hear animal-like growls echoing throughout the distant corridors. They know you're here. There's no turning back now.

Doom II has a similar plot dump. The rest... well, it's in the level design. There's enough plot in observation and inference.

As for #2... I dunno, that doesn't sound very appealing. On one hand, caring about NPCs would act more as a distraction than an immersive feature, forcing a multitasked gameplay (i.e., keeping you and your NPC(s) alive) that FPS games aren't well-made for. On the other hand, not caring about NPCs would mean that their death was inconsequential and lacked any immersive benefits in the first place. The only way they'd improve the game aesthetic, then, is if the player sees NPCs as a disposable plot/gameplay device to make the player feel more important. This is likely what is suggested here:

Battle_Kirby said:

Mars City was finally a city, filled with ordinary people like soldiers, scientists and workies going on with their day, and you could pause by, read some logs, and watch the TV. Even if later it got all fucked up, at least I could feel how fucked up it was hearing people screaming for help, getting possessed, when hell really breaks loose. I know, advanced tech and all, they couldn't really do that in the original Doom games. Yeah, I know about that, but still, Doom 3 really felt to me like a proper Doom game. A game about people being fucked over by demons and you have to save the day. That was all the old games missed. People being fucked over.


This simply comes down to preference. I see nothing to gain from the interaction with ultimately expendable allies: just give me a gun and let me work.

To be fair, while this can depreciate the gameplay, it's by no means a reason I would hate a game entirely. Case in point, I didn't like Doom 3 as much as Doom because it wore Doom's clothing but had an entirely different base of gameplay: run and gun openness turned into corridor combat claustrophobia, the flashlight/darkness complicated progress more than it did instill fear, and holy crap the fall damage was obnoxious. The world-building distractions are really just something to complain about on the side, in a "maybe if they hadn't spent so much time on this they'd have done better on that" way.

Share this post


Link to post

^^^^^this dude right here. Hes got it.

So there were other humans in the Doom 2 story! And by humans I mean soldiers. Even if they were newbies at demon fightning, and they died quick, the lore kinda confirms it that expendables wouldn't be a taboo thing if someone wanted to remix Doom and add some friendlies. I see people don't want to hassle with adding friendlies into their maps, but guess what, I do! And reading the plot really cleared up some things for me, thanks for bringing that in *ticks off imaginary list*

Yeah I am aware that Doom 3 didn't went in the footsteps of the older games, but somehow I loved it a lot. I loved it how your flashlight was actually a handheld one and you had to notice your enemies first and see where they are and then whip the shotgun. I liked the sinister atmosphere, supply and pda hunts, and geniuenly enjoyed the game from start to finish, because I could always see and find the reason why this and why that, not to mention how I learned to expertly dodge stuff :D

Doom 1 and 2 confused me exactly because of the abstract design, barely any mention where you are actually going, and little to no plot (except for the manuals), and adding some pages of plot and other info was in the other id's games before Doom, so I wondered why did they cut the manual out of the game. I guess it was time constraints, and hey, if I had revolutionary tech waiting to amaze the world, I would surely pump it out quickly as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Maes said:

Yeah, because NPCs worked really well in Daikatana. NPCs as a concept belong to an entirely different genre of games.


That depends, the concept of NPCs shouldn't have to be synonymous with "things you have to babysit that are danger prone".

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×