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Skully Boots

Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1?

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VGA said:

You want to play the Doom 1 maps with an expanded bestiary?

Yes, and the super shotgun would be nice too.

Grain of Salt said:

The Playstation port of Doom features Doom 2 monsters in the maps from Doom 1. There's a ZDoom TC of it somewhere out there.

I'm not looking for a TC of an old console port, I just want the Doom 2 stuff in Doom 1.

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Very possible and easy to do in most modern source ports. It's even possible to add the monsters into Doom 1 with DEHACKED iirc, but not the super shotgun.

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Death Egg said:

Very possible and easy to do in most modern source ports. It's even possible to add the monsters into Doom 1 with DEHACKED iirc, but not the super shotgun.

So I can just put them in myself? How do I do that?

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What I would do is replace all instances of Former Sergeants with a RandomSpawner which chooses to spawn either the usual Former Sergeant in it's place or a Chaingunner. Repeat that for the other Doom II uniques, replacing similar instances.

As an example:
Chaingunner has a 20% chance to spawn in place of a Sergeant
Mancubus has a 20% chance to spawn in place of a Cacodemon
Arch-Vile has a 10% chance to spawn in place of a Hell Knight
... and so on, you get the idea

For the shotgun, same thing. Maybe give the Super Shotgun a 20% chance to spawn where a Shotgun could be.

This is the way I'd do it in ZDoom based ports without modifying the maps, and has the added benefit of working in any vanilla Ultimate Doom mapset.

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To get Doom2 resources to work in Doom1, you'll need to create a pwad containing all the Doom2 monster sprites and sounds. Not sure why no one else has mentioned this. If you're using ZDoom, you can simply open up a Doom1 map in Doom Builder in Doom2 format and pop some Doom2 enemies around. They'll show up as unknown objects if you open the map in Doom1 format, but they should still work in ZDoom based ports. Just load your edited map alongside the pwad containing the Doom2 resources, and bam, Doom2 stuff in Doom1. This only works in ZDoom ports though, the oldschool way of doing this is 10x more of a headache and I've forgotten the process. Hope this helps!

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Nevander said:

What I would do is replace all instances of Former Sergeants with a RandomSpawner which chooses to spawn either the usual Former Sergeant in it's place or a Chaingunner. Repeat that for the other Doom II uniques, replacing similar instances.

As an example:
Chaingunner has a 20% chance to spawn in place of a Sergeant
Mancubus has a 20% chance to spawn in place of a Cacodemon
Arch-Vile has a 10% chance to spawn in place of a Hell Knight
... and so on, you get the idea

For the shotgun, same thing. Maybe give the Super Shotgun a 20% chance to spawn where a Shotgun could be.

This is the way I'd do it in ZDoom based ports without modifying the maps, and has the added benefit of working in any vanilla Ultimate Doom mapset.

Sounds good, but how do I do that?

Doomkid said:

To get Doom2 resources to work in Doom1, you'll need to create a pwad containing all the Doom2 monster sprites and sounds. Not sure why no one else has mentioned this. If you're using ZDoom, you can simply open up a Doom1 map in Doom Builder in Doom2 format and pop some Doom2 enemies around. They'll show up as unknown objects if you open the map in Doom1 format, but they should still work in ZDoom based ports. Just load your edited map alongside the pwad containing the Doom2 resources, and bam, Doom2 stuff in Doom1. This only works in ZDoom ports though, the oldschool way of doing this is 10x more of a headache and I've forgotten the process. Hope this helps!

Thanks for the heads up about the assets, but I don't understand your instructions. If its its in doom 2 format, will it even run in doom 1? How does that provide the doom 2 stuff anyway if none of that exists in doom 1? Also, I don't want to edit the existing maps, just to randomly replace some of the existing monsters with ones from Doom 2 (like what Nevander was talking about), but I don't really know how someone would do that.

All I know now is that I need to do is figure out how to get the assets of the doom 2 monsters into doom 1 and set it up in a way that they replace the other monsters randomly.

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TheDramaticSkull said:

If its its in doom 2 format, will it even run in doom 1?

Technically, there isn't actually a Doom 1 or Doom 2 format - those're just conveniences to make it so that Doom 2 objects won't show up in the things list when mapping for Doom 1.

The actual map format is exactly the same, and in fact the two games' executables ( of the same version, mind ) are basically the same, just with some stuff commented out for DOOM.exe. And even then, not everything you'd expect.

All of that is moot in terms of ZDoom, too, since it does things very differently ( with ZDoom, you could actually do a random spawner that includes Heretic, Hexen, and Strife stuff using the same methods of Doom 2 stuff, for example )

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Arctangent said:

Technically, there isn't actually a Doom 1 or Doom 2 format - those're just conveniences to make it so that Doom 2 objects won't show up in the things list when mapping for Doom 1.

The actual map format is exactly the same, and in fact the two games' executables ( of the same version, mind ) are basically the same, just with some stuff commented out for DOOM.exe. And even then, not everything you'd expect.

All of that is moot in terms of ZDoom, too, since it does things very differently ( with ZDoom, you could actually do a random spawner that includes Heretic, Hexen, and Strife stuff using the same methods of Doom 2 stuff, for example )

Thanks for clearing that up for me. :)

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Some thoughts on Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 specifically:

There's not really much room for this, actually. You could have chaingunners spawn in places of shotgunners and imps ( the latter of which is closer, health-wise ) and you could spawn pain elementals instead of cacodemons, but ... everything else lacks an equivalent. Revenants would be the closest to cacodemons in terms of the Doom 1 bestiary, but you run the risk of getting 'em stuck in places they're expected to fly out of but can't. Arachnotrons and mancubi would be close enough to barons that they'd be appropriate, plus they die like bosses ( and therefore trigger stuff like E1M8, if done correctly ) ... but they're much larger than them, making them liable to get stuck in walls that barons fit snugly in. Archviles have the opposite problem: they're actually smaller than barons, which is fine, but they don't die like bosses, so you wouldn't be able to complete E1M8 if a baron was replaced with one.

And hell knights just don't fit anywhere, period, unless you want randomly weaker barons.

This could all be dealt with with varying degrees of elbow grease and Decorate work, and by adding in jetpack revenants instead of the vanilla ones, but to be honest it's a lot of work for not a lot of gain. It might be worth checking out Realm667 Shuffle instead, since while it doesn't do what you want it's still a randomizer mod that tries to be somewhat Doom-y, and I don't think it has issues with Doom 1.

( written before he actually did it, mind )

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Arctangent said:

Some thoughts on Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 specifically:

There's not really much room for this, actually. You could have chaingunners spawn in places of shotgunners and imps ( the latter of which is closer, health-wise ) and you could spawn pain elementals instead of cacodemons, but ... everything else lacks an equivalent. Revenants would be the closest to cacodemons in terms of the Doom 1 bestiary, but you run the risk of getting 'em stuck in places they're expected to fly out of but can't. Arachnotrons and mancubi would be close enough to barons that they'd be appropriate, plus they die like bosses ( and therefore trigger stuff like E1M8, if done correctly ) ... but they're much larger than them, making them liable to get stuck in walls that barons fit snugly in. Archviles have the opposite problem: they're actually smaller than barons, which is fine, but they don't die like bosses, so you wouldn't be able to complete E1M8 if a baron was replaced with one.

And hell knights just don't fit anywhere, period, unless you want randomly weaker barons.

This could all be dealt with with varying degrees of elbow grease and Decorate work, and by adding in jetpack revenants instead of the vanilla ones, but to be honest it's a lot of work for not a lot of gain. It might be worth checking out Realm667 Shuffle instead, since while it doesn't do what you want it's still a randomizer mod that tries to be somewhat Doom-y, and I don't think it has issues with Doom 1.

( written before he actually did it, mind )

I think I found a good balance. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

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This can probably be configured to do it:
https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/utils/wad_tools/dm2cnv32
For example, you could have all imps replaced by hell knights. It's just a matter of creating a config file.
Possibly some levels will break if there's a special linedef hardcoded to a specific level slot (like E1M8).

Oh, almost forgot: the program is pretty flexible and you can even set it to only convert a specific percentage of the monsters. Like, have an entry in the config that says: replace 33% of all imps with hell knights.

Edit: maybe this isn't what you want technically, since it will convert Doom 1 maps to Doom 2 and add the new monsters. Seems more straightforward. Otherwise you have to jump through some more hoops (dehacked and such).

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Arctangent said:

The actual map format is exactly the same, and in fact the two games' executables ( of the same version, mind ) are basically the same, just with some stuff commented out for DOOM.exe.

No, there are no differences (as long as you compare identical versions). You can grab doom1.exe from (the latest version of) the shareware and put it in the Doom II directory and it'll load doom2.wad just fine. There was no conditional compilation clauses like in Wolf3D/Spear of Destiny; everything was built to use the same executable. The engine determines which mode it is by looking at the content of the IWAD, so that it tells whether it should be running in shareware (doom1), registered (doom), or commercial (doom2) mode.

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I just put all monster assets into a PWAD and use as necessary, sometimes with Oblige.

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