Make Freedoom Great Again

Freedoom is in a wonderful position now, the game shaping up rather well and being a joy to play. However, some of its weakest assets still lie in the levels themselves, and we can have a coordinated effort to improve the situation.

Freedoom needs level czars, and it could be you, the one reading this. :)

These czars will be in charge of curating maps as they see fit. Remove bad ones, fix them, reorder them, whatever. They will also be charged of managing their sub-projects of Freedoom, making sure the level sets are of an appropriate skill level to the game in whole, ramping up in difficulty but never to an insane degree (please, no Sunder-esque maps...). They should also be in charge of the theme, making sure it is cohesive and consistent within their own levels. The names of the maps themselves will be under their jurisdiction too.

The sets of levels I identify as needing these czars are the first three chapters of Phase 1, as well as the entirety of Phase 2. Given the scope of Phase 2, I'm expecting it to be broken up to its own sub-projects unless somebody really wants to take charge of all 32 maps.

There are currently no deadlines, but preparing the individual sections of the game into a worthy release should not take an unreasonable amount of time. Let's say we see what happens by the end of 2017 and work from there. :-)

Chapter 4, Double Impact, is already a good, difficult chapter to end Phase 1, highly acclaimed in its original mod release. FreeDM is already de-facto managed by Xindage and any major changes to those maps should be run by him.

Assigned czars will be listed here:

Phase 1:

  • Chapter 1 -
  • Chapter 2 -
  • Chapter 3 - AD_79

Phase 2:

  • MAP01-MAP11 - Blastfrog
  • MAP12-MAP20, MAP31, MAP32 - Jayextee
  • MAP21-MAP30 - Jaws in Space

 

Edited by chungy

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I'd like to sign up, but it would inappropiate right now due to life. Although I would love to see Jayextee as one of the czars, especially for Chapter 3.

Spoiler

I don't think Freedoom was ever great really :P until v0.11 that is.

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maybe it would be possible have list of servers on the net

and

also to NOT bound game prboom server to a FIXED number of players.

Hence it would let users to play prboom -net over net with joining and quiting servers.

Like normal multi player gaming on net

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i was looking to maintain the chapter 2 like i'm doing but idk if this "czars" fit me well.
Anyway i'll keep maintaining the freedm like i'm doing also using the freedoom community to help whit suggestion and tests.

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Well to get things moving I'll sign up for Phase 2 maps 21-30, expect many changes.

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I'd love to be a "level czar". It's actually something I've thought of for a long time, but never considered it appropriate to outright ask for such a position. If it's being offered, I'll gladly take it. Rearranging, renaming, cutting, and editing maps is something I'd love to do.

I'd like to claim maps 01-10 in Phase 2.

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Excellent news. Jaws and Blastfrog, you now have a great deal of autonomy in your selected parts of Phase 2. Do great things!

Xindage said:

i was looking to maintain the chapter 2 like i'm doing but idk if this "czars" fit me well.

If you want to take control of the chapter as your own personal mini-project, that's all that's needed. I hope the use of the term czar isn't putting you off :)

You've done great work in FreeDM, I'd love to see what you can do in other areas. Yours for the taking if you wish.

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Please post which maps are being actively worked on in your update threads. I will still randomly make small updates occasionally, do not want to edit a map already being worked on.

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Off the bat, this is what I have wanted to do for at least two years:

Cut maps 03, 04, 05, 07, 09 and 10.
Move MAP08 back to its original MAP03 slot; use the vastly updated version that never made it into the IWAD.
Move MAP06 to be MAP04 or MAP05.

So yeah, I'm literally cutting half of the cluster. Frankly, these maps suck and need to go anyway. I will need to find replacements, and then permission to use said maps, but it will be worth it. A great many Freedoom maps are complete garbage, let's be real.

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You sure that's a good idea? Unless you've got better maps, and the vast majority agrees they are better, then I'm fine with it. It just sounds like a bad idea.

How can you think map02, an obvious clone of Doom 2's map02, should stay?

Map03 is quite good, i don't see how it's actually a bad map. Sure some polishing here and there, but it's okay. Replacing it with map08 is crazy, especially for the third map. In fact, map08 should just go.

Map04 might as well go.

Map05, is not bad but it's not good either, I suppose. But it's improved a lot.

Map07 sucks, no doubt about that.

Map09, it's fine, needs some polishing though.

Map10, some work needs to be done yes, but it's not "bad" at all. If you ask me.

boris in a PM on the subject of map08 said:

[The revised map08] is not really in a state where it should be in a playable IWAD.


Overall, I'm really not liking where you're going with this. If you just said map04, map07 and map08, would've made sense. And you're making the difficulty of the first set of maps to be even more higher.

Finding and replacing maps? If that's allowed for czar, I would've definitely signed up. But I'd rather see the current maps cleaned up with the really bad ones removed (map07 I'm looking at you >.>).

Btw, did you check the latest build? Map06 (the Jenesis map) was replaced with a map that's more fitting for the slot. That Jenesis map wasn't removed though, it now occupies slot 18.

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The implication of the term czar is exactly that they have full control over the maps they are in charge of. Making a team, finding replacements, changing anything... All is fair game :)

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Given that 5/11 of the "second chapter plus secret maps" are mine (that's almost half!), I'm very happy to work with whomever ends up being the 'czar' for that episode to make any changes. I myself reckon most of them could be improved; and, as I've said before, the order of MAP13/MAP14 switched for difficulty reasons.

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After a quick preliminary assessment I'll immediately say that maps 21, 24, & 27 are being cut. I'll see what I can do with maps 25 & 28, but they are not even remotely vanilla compatible. If Blastfrog doesn't want to use maps 5 & 10 I may be able to find a place for them among maps 21-30 after making some edits to them.

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I really shouldn't.

I'll take Phase 1 E3, won't be working on it for a while though.

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Catoptromancy said:

Please post which maps are being actively worked on in your update threads. I will still randomly make small updates occasionally, do not want to edit a map already being worked on.


i'm was working in e2m7, but i bumped in a corner causing me dificulties to go ahead (lack of criativity) so i stoped but if someone want to take care of episode pm me so i send you the wad.

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Does Freedoom have an official narrative/story?

If so... where can I find it?

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everennui said:

Does Freedoom have an official narrative/story?

As of yet, not really. Unless you count the episode intermission text as the story.

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Imo you guys should go for a totally new episode 4. Having a well known wad there just seems lame. If I want to play Double Impact, I can do it without your wacky graphics. I want Freedoom to offer me something unique, not a repeat of what I've seen years ago. Reusing a popular episode is like the best possible way to damage Freedoom's already hodgepodge-y identity even further.

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Blastfrog:
Actually, I may wish to keep MAP04, it's the one I dislike the least of the 6 maps I mentioned. In fact, I actually kinda like it, it's just that there are a few things that bother me about it.

Voros said:
How can you think map02, an obvious clone of Doom 2's map02, should stay?

Heavily inspired by, not a direct clone. I want to keep it and MAP01 just for being good maps.

Voros said:
Map03 is quite good, i don't see how it's actually a bad map. Sure some polishing here and there, but it's okay. Replacing it with map08 is crazy, especially for the third map. In fact, map08 should just go.

MAP03 is visually nice, but the layout is extremely bland and linear. Keep in mind, MAP08 was actually MAP03 at some time, and I actually think it fit better there.

Voros said:
[The revised map08] is not really in a state where it should be in a playable IWAD.

Well, of course not as-is. I will be heavily editing the latest version of the revised map.

Voros said:
And you're making the difficulty of the first set of maps to be even more higher.

You shouldn't assume things like that. Obviously, the maps will be edited to balance difficulty relative to their placement.

Voros said:
Map09, it's fine, needs some polishing though.

It's very boring and consists of nothing but tiny narrow hallways. Not a truly awful map, but so mediocre that it's not worth keeping.

Voros said:
Overall, I'm really not liking where you're going with this.

I can understand your concern, but I promise that you will like the end result.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 02:58 #
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everennui
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Voros said:
As of yet, not really. Unless you count the episode intermission text as the story.

I think the story should come first.

Let's figure out the motives and allegiance of the monsters.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 04:19 #
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Catoptromancy
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Generic sci-fi space shooter. I dont like C1M1 named as "prison." Prison as first map feels like Wolf and forces story.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 04:34 #
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Jayextee
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Catoptromancy said:
Generic sci-fi space shooter. I dont like C1M1 named as "prison." Prison as first map feels like Wolf and forces story.


Call it 'storage'. You're the ultimate warrior, a project started during interplanetary war; but the project ran over time and you were created in peace time, so were stuck in a box until now. Or something, I dunno.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 05:01 #
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Hell Theatre
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Blastfrog said:
Off the bat, this is what I have wanted to do for at least two years:

Cut maps 03, 04, 05, 07, 09 and 10.
Move MAP08 back to its original MAP03 slot; use the vastly updated version that never made it into the IWAD.
Move MAP06 to be MAP04 or MAP05.

So yeah, I'm literally cutting half of the cluster. Frankly, these maps suck and need to go anyway. I will need to find replacements, and then permission to use said maps, but it will be worth it. A great many Freedoom maps are complete garbage, let's be real.

Hello, Donald Trump! 
It must be you, because you come waltzing in here, declaring that all the previous work is crap and you are in the supreme position to make it better by tossing out most that came before.

Joking aside, are you on drugs or what? If the maps do not meet your standard, have them FIXED instead of being thrown out. The last thing Freedoom needs is another round of map tossing, after nearly all the early maps have already been dumped.

Some of the maps you listed definitely need work, but I don't think there's any that needs to be tossed - with the exception of MAP07, of course. That one wasn't great in it original form already, but the torso that was left after vanillafication should burn in hell and be best forgotten.

Attitudes like yours are mostly responsible why Freedoom still isn't finished. Instead of making sure that the existing material meets a higher standard, stuff is constantly being replaced over and over again. That not only costs a lot of time but also frustrates all the contributors whose work gets eliminated. 

If you can make it better, kudos to you, but good luck finding 6 maps that fit in here, are free for the taking and do not feel like leeching another project again.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 05:29 #
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Jayextee
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Fuck it.

Any objections to me being the director/producer (I do not like 'csar') of Chapter 2?

Possible caveat: just under half those maps are mine - but I'll try to be objective about them ;). However I'd say I'm pretty proven vanilla mapper, so editing maps that aren't vanilla-compatible (as opposed to throwing them out) should be well within my reach. I had a quick play through earlier, and most of these maps are IMO serviceable at least.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 06:04 #
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Voros
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Catoptromancy said:
Generic sci-fi space shooter. I dont like C1M1 named as "prison." Prison as first map feels like Wolf and forces story.

Doesn't really matter though. It's just a name.

Blastfrog said:
Actually, I may wish to keep MAP04, it's the one I dislike the least of the 6 maps I mentioned. In fact, I actually kinda like it, it's just that there are a few things that bother me about it.

Heavily inspired by, not a direct clone. I want to keep it and MAP01 just for being good maps.

MAP03 is visually nice, but the layout is extremely bland and linear. Keep in mind, MAP08 was actually MAP03 at some time, and I actually think it fit better there.

Well, of course not as-is. I will be heavily editing the latest version of the revised map.

You shouldn't assume things like that. Obviously, the maps will be edited to balance difficulty relative to their placement.

It's very boring and consists of nothing but tiny narrow hallways. Not a truly awful map, but so mediocre that it's not worth keeping.

I can understand your concern, but I promise that you will like the end result.

Map04's layout is actually bland, and it has some kinks like the "freelook required" and stuff. And yet, you're willing to inprove that map, but not the other 6 :/

"Heavily inspired". I guess that means C1M3 should stay too, because it's "heavily inspired" by Doom's E1M3.

Map03's layout is quite good, I don't see how it's bland at all. Linear? A lot of the maps are linear, at leasf this one has some nice backtracking involved, unlike map04 (which truly is linear). Map08's difficulty is a bit too much for slot 3 if you ask me.

Editing boris' map08. Have you checked it out with boris? 

If it's mediocre, improve it. You have the power to do so.

I doubt I will like the end result, because you're taking out the original maps in favour of project maps, and who knows how long it'll take to gather those maps up. I'm very skeptical with your approach. Jaws in Space looks he's doing it right though, taking out some of the worst maps (like 27) out of the mapset.

 

 

Last edited by Voros on Mar 14 2017 at 07:26

Old Post Mar 14 2017 06:45 #
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Catoptromancy
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There are really old MAP03s I thought were nice. Map was slowly chopped down over the years. If someone is going to redo some parts of it, maybe compare it with older versions.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 07:09 #
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I can't say I am impressed by Blastfrog's plan. What this project needs is people that guide the existing maps to finalization and throw stuff out where unavoidable, not trying a total rework 5 minutes before the deadline.

Anything more I could say has already been said so just a short take on the 6 maps that were announced to be ditched:

- MAP03: Needs a bit of tweaking. The map feels a bit rough but nothing here that warrants expulsion.
- MAP04: The second worst of the bunch. The layout is pretty dismal and the map feels overstuffed with so many monsters, it definitely needs some serious editing.
- I actually like MAP05, and the most recent version finally managed to iron out my biggest gripes about it.
- the less said about MAP07, the better. This should never make the final product.
- MAP09: All I said about MAP03 applies here, too. The map needs work, not replacement.
- And MAP10? I beg your pardon? What is wrong with that one? I thought it was one of the better ones in the first half.

Regarding MAP08: I have always wondered where the rework of this map ended up. If that could be salvaged it would be nice. Of course that'd essentially mean that yet another of the original Freedoom maps bites the dust.

Voros said:
Map08's difficulty is a bit too much for slot 3 if you ask me.

Which, if I remember correctly, was the reason it got moved up.

 

 

 

Old Post Mar 14 2017 07:19 #
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AD_79 said:
I'll take Phase 1 E3, won't be working on it for a while though.


Jayextee said:
Any objections to me being the director/producer (I do not like 'csar') of Chapter 2?

You guys got them ;)

As for the rest: These guys have nearly full control(*) over the levels in their respective areas. Please take up concerns in dedicated threads for them instead of here.

If Blastfrog wants to be radical, let's see what he comes up with. As I said in the opening post, there are presently no deadlines, we can give time to see what he and all the others make of it.

(*) Okay, I think I'm going to have to reserve a veto power that currently myself and fraggle may be able to use. I hope we don't have to use it, but if one of the maintainers goes a bit too far off the deep end, we can pull things into sanity (and reassign if absolutely necessary).

 

 

 

New Post Mar 14 2017 08:23 #
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Before everyone goes crazy with talks of veto power & whatnot I did send Blastfrog a PM requesting to use maps 5 & 10. I have an idea what direction I want to take my maps & those two should fit the theme perfectly with a little bit of editing.

 

 

 

New Post Mar 14 2017 09:18 #
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Amarande
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Can we also add "please make sure any outtakes are duly placed in the attic" to this system?

If some maps are going to go, it would be nice to be able to easily get a hold of them in order to bring them into other projects (let's never have to see another Requiem incident again ... Windsor made some fun little maps but those were still filler in the grand scheme, and they had to delay HIS megawad!) without having to hunt down various ancient versions of freedoom.

(Indeed, have we already lost some maps? I know all the freedoom versions before about 0.6.4 or so had to be wiped because of some copyright issues ...)

I'm still wondering what Jaws In Space's grand vision for Phase 2 E3 is, if the current MAP05 fits it but venerables currently in E3 like MAP21 & MAP24 do not :)

 

Edited by Voros

Posted (edited)

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I'm still wondering what Jaws In Space's grand vision for Phase 2 E3 is, if the current MAP05 fits it but venerables currently in E3 like MAP21 & MAP24 do not :)

MAP24 is one of mine. Should it be desired I'd happily retexture and re-theme it to fit (plus make it less backtrack-y and completely change the teleporter area to something less utterly un-fun). Map was made in about 2004 right after Murderous Intent, it's not a thing I'm too proud of, improving it will address my mapper's karma. ;)

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6 hours ago, Voros said:

(Indeed, have we already lost some maps? I know all the freedoom versions before about 0.6.4 or so had to be wiped because of some copyright issues ...)

Original and actual poster is Amarande.

Old versions of IWADs and levels can be downloaded from SourceForge. It seems they were removed, at least officially, due to certain sounds and music included without permission.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/freedoom/files/OldFiles/

 

 

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Hell Theatre: Don't fucking call me Donald Trump.

I'll do with my cluster as I see fit. I'm cutting maps precisely because I don't see them as being salvageable for my purposes. And yes, I do intend to "leech" from existing mapsets (with permission, of course). The way I see it, a good map is a good map, doesn't matter if it comes from another WAD. Besides, it could give more exposure to otherwise likely overlooked maps.

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I guess I will hold back my edits and just playtest, and fine tune the new/updated maps. 

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1 hour ago, Blastfrog said:

Hell Theatre: Don't fucking call me Donald Trump.

 

Why not? Your attitude is not that dissimilar, coming in here, being freshly elected to do a responsible job, but instead you boast that in order to make it 'great' you intend to first destroy it, and worse, seem absolutely resistant to negative criticism.

Good luck - but if I were responsible for the project I'd throw you out after that last post, because it is abundantly clear that this attitude will do no good.

Freedoom needs people that complete the vision. You will only piss off other contributors to stop their work because you act disruptively. Just like Donald Trump! I see the first one has already pulled out for the time being. Congratulations on an efficient job!

And adding more 'borrowed' work to replace original levels will also hurt Freedoom's reputation in the end.

 

 

 

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Let's not devolve this thread into petty arguments about how these new maintainers see fit to manage the parts they are now in charge of. Let Blastfrog do as he wishes, we will see the results in the end.

 

(I posted on the original forum, but the data got lost in the migration: I will reserve for myself and fraggle an ultimate power of veto if one of these maintainers goes too far off the deep-end, but I do hope we don't have to use it. Let them be as disruptive or non-disruptive as they like, and we shall see.)

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@blastfrog

Please reconsider borrowing preexisting maps. I'm not fully opposed to picking up a few good spare maps here and there, but if the majority of the maps in your episode end up being non original i may have to reconsider my involvement with the project. Same goes to all other czars

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I notice in OP that I'm listed as phase 1, chapter 2 overseer. Um, I think I should've specified that I was asking about phase 2 (freedoom2.wad).

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Jayextee: Corrected, thanks.

 

raymoohawk: similar to my previous post, let's see what happens first.

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Is it a bad idea to have a story for Freedoom?

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