Make Freedoom Great Again

Not at all. What we currently have is in the intermission text.

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11 minutes ago, chungy said:

raymoohawk: similar to my previous post, let's see what happens first.

But then the damage will be done and some contributors who got scared off by the ensuing uncertainty will be lost forever.

I think you have a serious problem on your hands if you give someone with overblown ambitions free reign and establish no rules what may and what may not be done, and in this case it gets compounded by the fact that he wants to replace 6(!) out of the first 10 maps. Sorry to be negative, but this cannot and will not end well.

And if the experiment fails, which is likely, you'll be back to square one, with no real work being done on the old maps because quite unsurprisingly, nobody else wants to get in the way of an uncontrollable wild shot.

 

 

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HT, you have done absolutely nothing constructive in this thread but pick a fight with me.

You claim that I have already "driven off" a contributor as a result of my (very early and not-final) plans for MAP01-MAP10. Care to point to some kind of evidence for that claim? And don't point to Xindage's post, because that literally had nothing to do with me and you would've known that if you had some basic level of reading comprehension.

You say I'm "absolutely resistant to criticism", but I've only responded to you and Voros so far. I simply responded to his points with some of my own, nowhere in that post did I just plug my ears and go "lala I'm not listening". I did the same in my first response to you. I don't know where you get the idea that I somehow don't take what other people say into consideration, because I do. Your "criticism" has so far been nothing but ignorant conjecture and unwarranted insults, with nothing of real substance.

And who the hell are you, anyway? I've been a contributor to Freedoom for several years now, what have you done for the project? You didn't even register a year ago, and here you are acting like you know this project and its culture so well that you claim to know what will definitively happen if one guy gets to try a harmless experiment that may not even come to pass. Get some perspective.

Freedoom has been nothing but a long series of experiments and pulls in radically different directions. And it's served the project better that some people might think, even if it means a slower development cycle. Neither of us have any authority, not even with my being a "czar". Realistically, if my version really turned out that bad, it would not be committed to the repo, simple as that.

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1 hour ago, Blastfrog said:

Realistically, if my version really turned out that bad, it would not be committed to the repo, simple as that.

If it's that simple, I hope the maintainers pick the right decision when the time comes.

 

But I seriously don't understand why you want to ditch maps like map10. If you ditched the maps that need to be ditched, like map07 or map04, your plans would sound sane at first sight. People would have been less skeptical with your approach.

 

Announcing your master plan just like that was probably the bad idea, because it's created a bad-ish impression on a number of us. HT has become outraged by your plan, from the looks of it, which is understandable. I would've been too, if I didn't control myself.

 

I'm willing to see how your plan turns out via a PWAD, and see if really does make Freedoom Great Again. My predictions tell me it won't be, but eh. What can I do about it, right? You're the czar.

Lets keep things civil, guys :)

 

PS- I still don't like your plan though.

Edited by Voros

Posted (edited)

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@Blastfrog As the supervisor of the 'episode' following yours (maps 12-20 plus 31/32), I've a request to make: do you think it unreasonable to place a suicide exit in your eventual MAP11? Thinking of putting MAP14 in the MAP12 slot, as it's a short and easy one for the second set; and this will be mitigated a little if we force a pistol start.

Also welcoming other people's thoughts on this. May make a topic to contain feedback for my episode.

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@Blastfrog:

The issue is not whether your plan will work or not. But the fact that two very active contributors have already considered quitting - or at least reducing their effort - is a serious issue.

If nobody knows what they are up with, they won't help - at best they'll steer clear of your part of the project, but at worst they call it quits and that'd be a real shame.

 

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TBQH, I'm not too fond of suicide exits in general, but I'll think about it.

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Just throwing it in here that I'm in the "Blastfrog's throwing too much shit away and comes across too rash" camp, however I am willing to work with him on this, as per my above post.

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@Graf Zahl For one thing, people shouldn't be taking my stated plans too seriously, they're preliminary ideas and I have no idea where I may end up going. If the smallest amount of uncertainty is enough to drive even very talented people off, that's not really my problem.

Again, worst case scenario is that my changes suck and are not implemented. Worst case scenario is not that my changes suck and are implemented anyway. Fraggle and Chungy have good heads on their shoulders, if you can't have faith in me, at least have faith in them.

I have no real authority here. Don't quit over something silly like this.

Edited by Blastfrog

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24 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

@Graf Zahl For one thing, people shouldn't be taking my stated plans too seriously, they're preliminary ideas and I have no idea where I may end up going. If the smallest amount of uncertainty is enough to drive even very talented people off, that's not really my problem.

You are in a position of power, if your decisions do not sit well with some people, it actually is your problem. But from how I see it, the real danger here is that the first thing you did was an announcement to ditch 6 maps.

Now think for one minute how people that consider working on these 6 maps may react: The most likely outcome will be that they just stop, robbing the project of every chance to see these maps being brought into shape.

So whatever you have against those 6 maps, the first priority should be to detemine if they are salvageable and if there are potential contributors who may work on them. And only if that doesn't produce good results consider replacing them. All the previous replacements have been made after several people had been discussing the pros and cons and only decided to ditch them after reaching a consensus that it's for the better of the project. The only exceptions here have been the two obvious copycats, MAP18 and MAP26 which were tossed for being immediately recognizable rip-offs of the originals.

Now, I think everybody agrees that MAP07 is unsalvageable and MAP04 is a totally underwhelming experience. Nobody here will raise an eyebrow if you replace those with something better.

It should also be clear that you are very alone with considering MAP05 and MAP10 toss-worthy. Many people here like those maps, myself included. They may need a bit of cleanup but there's nothing about them that warrants their expulsion from the project. If you think differently, you have to justify that, and "I don't like them" is frankly not a good enough reason.

Similarly, for MAP03 and MAP09, you also have to justify why the maps cannot be reworked to meet your standards, that is, you first have to explain your standards so that others understand what you want to achieve here. I'd fully agree if someone said that they are not among the true quality maps in Freedoom but I also believe that these maps CAN be made to work, following higher standards.

 

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I'll admit, perhaps I have been too rash.

 

If other people want to help by editing maps that I would otherwise cut, then be my guest.

 

If I need to define my standard, here it is. The level cannot be overly flat, it cannot have too much repetition, it cannot be too linear, every room must be distinctly different from one another, the combat must have a natural flow with just enough resistance to be challenging, but not dull or unfair. Everything must feel like it has a purpose, or it should not be there. No map can feel run-of-the-mill mediocre average whatever, they must all stand out in some positive way. In short, they must all be polished and interesting.

 

Maps like MAP05 and MAP09 aren't necessarily bad maps, but they fail to meet my expectations as outlined above. MAP05's main problem is that it's just uninteresting, nothing is special about its layout. 09 is incredibly flat, repetitive, and doesn't even feel remotely professional.

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@Blastfrog, what do you mean we shouldn't take your plans seriously? You're one of official czars now! You never said anything like "I might do this" or "if I have to", just "I'm going to do this". It seems like you have a clear cut plan in mind, but with nothing to show for it. You said you'll remove 6 maps, but didn't say specifically what maps will replace them. You're the czar, you have to think about what you'll announce. You've gotten yourself in a position of power, so be sure to think carefully about what'll you say to us and what effect it can have. 

 

Map09 has some interesting layout, like the crate room. By raising 2 sectors, the player has to go down a completely different path of the map, which is nice. I don't think other maps have this kind style anywhere in Freedoom. You have the power to update maps. Use it.

 

Edited by Voros

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Seeing that my comment appears to be lost on the old Doomworld. I'm gonna let everyone know that I am using maps 05 & 10 in Phase 2 currently as maps 21 & 24.

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Hi, its been a while... I am the original author of map04, and i agree its pretty bad. I feel like i can do better, was trying to once but lost steam. Have been afk'ing in the irc channel past week or so making another attempt if that's ok?

I'd love constructive criticism on it, i just need a place to host it... unless you all want me to upload it to the current build?

not sure what to do...

MAP01 -- Re-Focus.zip

 

oh, i forgot to add... I've not tested this in any engine yet, so my recomendation is to fly through it with a map editor. I will make it work under doom.exe as per the updated rules.

Edited by Macro11_1
Adding link to map.

Posted (edited)

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7 hours ago, Jaws In Space said:

Seeing that my comment appears to be lost on the old Doomworld. I'm gonna let everyone know that I am using maps 05 & 10 in Phase 2 currently as maps 21 & 24.

Out of interest: What about the former maps in these slots? I'd be sorry to see MAP21 go, at least. I do not care much for MAP24 being in Freedoom, considering that this originates from a mapset I prefer to play in its original form.

 

As a general note, while I appreciate that you try to preserve these two maps. the whole development got me worried. Finishing and finalizing the product should require active cooperation and discussion between those responsible for the various sections, but seeing one person make an announcement to ditch some maps and then another one taking over some of them without reaching a consensus first is definitely not how this should have gone.

Honestly, I think BEFORE you start tossing out and shuffling things you will have to sit together and make some rough plans for the project as a whole so that you won't step on each other's toes and swap out maps that are deemed inappropriate for each one's part in an organized fashion.

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Out of interest: What about the former maps in these slots? I'd be sorry to see MAP21 go, at least. I do not care much for MAP24 being in Freedoom, considering that this originates from a mapset I prefer to play in its original form.

 

As a general note, while I appreciate that you try to preserve these two maps. the whole development got me worried. Finishing and finalizing the product should require active cooperation and discussion between those responsible for the various sections, but seeing one person make an announcement to ditch some maps and then another one taking over some of them without reaching a consensus first is definitely not how this should have gone.

Honestly, I think BEFORE you start tossing out and shuffling things you will have to sit together and make some rough plans for the project as a whole so that you won't step on each other's toes and swap out maps that are deemed inappropriate for each one's part in an organized fashion.

 

 

 

I had sent Blastfrog a PM immediately after he was placed in charge of Phase 2 map 1-11 requesting these two maps & we have contacted each other since then on IRC along with Chungy & Catoptromancy. Likewise I have already gotten in contact with Jayextee concerning Phase 2 maps 12-20 as well via PM & we are discussing more map swaps. So the shuffling of maps isn't random, it has just been discussed behind the scenes while we formulate a plan.

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That's good to know. It sounded a bit like a random takeover the way it was written.

 

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Great news. Glad see a coordinated effort going on here.

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To confirm, I am exchanging PMs with Jaws In Space as well as the exchange with Blastfrog in this thread; I personally prefer the transparency of discussing such things on the forum hence my own topic, but will work with these two in a manner they see fit. :)

 

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7 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Out of interest: What about the former maps in these slots? I'd be sorry to see MAP21 go, at least. I do not care much for MAP24 being in Freedoom, considering that this originates from a mapset I prefer to play in its original form.

 

I had posted the other day that there should be an effort to make sure outtakes get put in the attic for later reference (something that has not been kept up on very well, so we might want to also comb back through older versions and move any substantially replaced maps - like the pre-vanillification editions from 0.10 and the original map30 and map05 - to attic too), but the forum software ate it :(

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Since there are now people working on the maps, I must ask if you, the czars, will use the Aquatex textures alongside the stock textures, similar to C1M1, whenever it's appropriate for the map (Hell maps won't have much use for Aquatex). It would really help give Freedoom it's own identity.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Voros said:

Since there are now people working on the maps, I must ask if you, the czars, will use the Aquatex textures alongside the stock textures, similar to C1M1, whenever it's appropriate for the map (Hell maps won't have much use for Aquatex). It would really help give Freedoom it's own identity.

 

 

 

Paging @Catoptromancy about this: when vanillafying MAP12 (I don't know if MAP15 has this concern also) there's a silver step texture (STEP4) that suffers tutti-frutti in some places where it's used for steps higher than 16. I'm pretty sure there's a 'stripy' Aquatex texture that can act as a good replacement (AQCONC10 or AQTRIM05 for example).

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I have been using lots of aquatex on steps. Easy tutti frutti fix and work better usually.

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Good, good. I had no doubt you'd be on it already; just posting whilst it was still on my mind, so I wouldn't forget. Nice one. :D

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3 hours ago, Voros said:

Since there are now people working on the maps, I must ask if you, the czars, will use the Aquatex textures alongside the stock textures, similar to C1M1, whenever it's appropriate for the map (Hell maps won't have much use for Aquatex). It would really help give Freedoom it's own identity.

My plan is to use as little stock textures as possible, opting for Aquatex instead for most surfaces. I will likely make a handful of my own textures to use as well.

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7 hours ago, Blastfrog said:

I will likely make a handful of my own textures to use as well.

I don't think that's necessary. I'd rather not see more new textures get added into Freedoom. There's over 300 fresh textures to choose, please work with them as much as you can.

 

Too much of a good thing is bad for you :)

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A few new custom textures is fine if they are really needed. I have been wanting that teleport side and top texture/flat combo. 

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Topic bump, reminding that chapters 1 and 2 are still ripe for the picking :)

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By cato advice i think of i can maintaining chapter 2, for now i'm just finishing map11 after i done it i'll focus on both freedm and chapter 2.

 

-- // --

On 16/03/2017 at 9:43 PM, Voros said:

I don't think that's necessary. I'd rather not see more new textures get added into Freedoom. There's over 300 fresh textures to choose, please work with them as much as you can.

 

Too much of a good thing is bad for you :)

Saying seriosly, i still miss a lot few textures and flats possible perfect to help mapping: (this is my point of view)

--->>> High Priority.

> Finish the "A-BRBRK" i still waiting to use the white brick from plutonia.

> The "BROWNGRN" dont have a matching flat (the most close is a marble flat -Innacurate-), while BROWN96 have, just recolor "CEIL5_2" to match.

> Metal2 and its variants has not a "perfectly" matching flat, the most close is "RROCK03", but its innacurate.

> There's no red marble flat to match whit the "SP_HOT1", also a gray one help too to "MARBGRAY".

> Aquatex dont have a pure green wall variant from "BASE(X)".

> "METAL1" is missing a horizontal variant to help Flat-to-texture matchs.

 

--->>> Low Priority

> I miss the old version of "MFLR8_1" they matched perfectly in corners of sectors.

> "ZIMMER" texture-to-flat variants will be nice.

> Flats matching whit the color of door (few aquatex texture already helped on it but exit door still missing a good one).

> "WOOD1" need a generic matching flat, the currently one depending of the angle not help much, and the chess like wood seens bit off of any matching texture.

> "A-YELLOW" variants for other keys, still missing red and blue (probably useless due it tutty-fruty on tall walls).

> FLAT11-13 and FLAT15-16 can acommodate colors variant. (in alpha version of doom these slots used variants too also removed for unknow reason, actualy beta version of e1m2 used some of these flats before final release).

 

Edited by Xindage

Posted (edited)

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Still nobody signed up for C1 it looks like?

 

Aright, I'll bite :)

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