The DWmegawad Club plays: No End in Sight

[rehelekretep]

N4E1 FDA

oh dear. anything that forces me to come up with workarounds for infinite height deaths is just an annoyance.

i dont want to be forcefully reminded of the doom engine's shortcomings while im trying to play a map.

even if you come up with a strategy, there's still a lot that has to go right to let this map go smoothly and it just isnt enjoyable enough to justify that.

[NuMetalManiak]

E4M8 No End In Sight

 

Let's end this properly, hopefully. A spiderdemon duel which is no trouble for a BFG. Woah woah wait a minute, are you sure you're in the right IWAD here? Lol, Icon of Sin-style battle, except it's not really endless hordes of enemies and no danger of telefragging or Doom II monsters so to speak. It's just a few enemies that spawn in each time from the teleporters, and getting the blue and yellow keys quickly and opening the main beasts maw. But that's a load of cacos coming from there. Ignite the explosions, and the bridge to leave comes up. Time to go, and thankfully the majority of enemies will be crushed, or at least the ones that didn't make it out of their cages. I like that, as it removes the remaining hassle instead of me waiting way longer than I need to. Great finale, thank god.

 

E1 is my favorite, E2 is fine, E3 is strange, E4 is stranger. Hi

[Demtor]

 

E4M8 - “No End In Sight” by Emil "NaturalTvventy" Brundage, Xaser Acheron

gzDoom - UV – pistol start/no saves

 

An end level ammo dump and some cool looking stuff to start off with. I liked that there was a serious encounter with three SMMs on some falling damage floors. Intense start followed by a moody crawl to the final boss.

 

This confused me greatly until it dawned on me that indeed you can do an Icon of Evil map in Doom 1. I kept thinking I needed to shoot the eye switch textures open or something but I got the hint.

 

I was also confused by the skull switch below as it only seemed to flip some of the time. It took a little bit for me to put it together with the large protective barrier that is on a timer of some sort. Even then, after I unloaded A LOT of rockets in to that open space… I never really understood what indicated to me that I was finished and can go proceed to the exit. I just happened to check during one of my frantic “clear out some of the mess below while getting more health” runs and noticed there was a newly risen walk way from the lava which lead to the exit. Huh. Oh well.

 

Fighting for both keys on the left and right was neat and oddly colorful. They each had weird looking “safe” rooms as well with one stocked to the brim with ammo just in case a player is too slow to deal with everything. I don’t know if they were required but it was fun getting inside of each.

 

So that’s that! I LOVE the falling buildings at the end. Impressive visual treats like that at the end of a WAD are just small artsy touches really enjoy and appreciate. 

 

 

Favorite Maps

E1M7: Biosphere

E1M9: Quarantine Silos

 

E2M4: Derelict Vessel

E2M6: Poison Control

 

E3M6: Anomaly Retribution

E3M7: Netherworld Citadel

 

E4M4: Wartorn Precinct

E4M5: The Blood Beneath

 

Honorable Mentions

E2M9: Castle of Illusion

E4M7: Vacuum Consortium

E4M9: Vile Cross

 

Hated Maps

E3M3: The Grinder

E4M6: Sanctuary of Filth

 

I was going to rank the episodes, but couldn’t. I liked and disliked parts equally across the board and decided there really is no point. E3 had two of the best of the best, so there's that.

 

 

Final Thoughts

 

What a long strange trip it’s been. No End In Sight was filled with lots of different stuff including a bit of experimental content mixed in with a couple of really good surprises for a Doom 1 experience. The boss fights were clever and different for the most part and each episode captures it’s own mood/theme perfectly. You can tell that a lot of effort and time went in to each.

 

There were a few frustrations to be had with the difficulty and secrets towards the last half which was to be expected I suppose but overall I enjoyed a lot of these maps. Too bad about the secrets though as the first half was done so well. Once hell gets introduced in episode 3 things became God damned silly.

 

Looking back it’s really hard for me to pick out any maps I really didn’t enjoy other than the two shit shows I already pointed out. It’s hard for me to lump stuff like E3M1: Gates of Hades in with those two but I suppose you could since it wasn’t a whole lot of fun even if I can appreciate an author trying to do something wildly different. So that’s 3 maps out of 38 I really didn’t like. That says a lot. If you cut those 3 out and shuffle around the ludicrous secret map structure, you could really have something great here.

 

One of the biggest marks against No End In Sight would be the lack of good music. Maybe I’ve been spoiled with the other WAD choices I’ve been in on with the club so far but I just can’t stand the original music anymore.

 

Given the level of frustration and the mixture of odd maps that didn’t work so well next to great ones that did, I thought that this is a solid 4 out of 5. Not outstanding, not terrible and certainly not mediocre or abysmal.

[Steve D]

6 hours ago, Demtor said:

 

Maybe I’ve been spoiled with the other WAD choices I’ve been in on with the club so far but I just can’t stand the original music anymore.

 

Blasphemy!!!!!!

[Demon of the Well]

Been finishing up my playthrough for this today, and found that E4M7 consistently breaks horribly in -cl 3 in a room with a soulsphere and a giant mass of specters in an 'illuso-pit' which fails to rise and a portcullis-style gate which never opens. Given the WAD's stature and the length of time it's been out, I kinda feel like I'm being foolish and missing something obvious here....is -cl 3 not correct here, or somesuch?

 

(can post the abortive FDAs if needed)

[rehelekretep]

@Demon of the Well i havent finished yet but thanks for pointing that out! :o

[riderr3]

On 25.03.2017 at 9:51 AM, NecrumWarrior said:

+++ Urania

+++ Urania, agreed too.

[NecrumWarrior]

49 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

+++ Urania, agreed too.

Maybe next month... at this point there's no way it wouldn't be Speed Doom (Unless we really are playing Go Again To Saturn: Please Leave My House)

[riderr3]

Yeah, I feeling kinda newb in this topic.

[NaturalTvventy]

e4m1

 

A map where I wanted to play with a limited bestiary of meatier monsters. Demons, cacos, and barons. E4 is where we started playing with DOOM2 as well as Plutonia and TNT2 textures. Because of this the episode became more earth-focused, though I'm not sure that this map qualifies for that theme.

 

I never liked the sideways NIN symbol in the original e4m1. Probably because I could care less about NIN, and the lettering felt like a desecration of the perfection that is DOOM. Still, its presence left me with a good opportunity to sneak in the MetallicA hommage, copy/pasted from a map in end1.

 

e4m2

 

A trip into multiple dimensions, inspired by a map from one of Xaser's Plutonia maps. I like this map, though I wish it were tighter. I really wish I milked the warping theme for all its worth, with jumps between dimensions from the get go, and a lot more changing of environments to progress across worlds.

 

e4m9

 

Trying to show the kids how it's done with spiders. I can't think of a single solid spider battle in other wads. Spiders are tricky. Demons, imps, barons have a chance to freeze them and rake them into oblivion, so placing them together is a bad idea. One or two BFG blasts to the face wipes them out, so you need to keep the BFG away from the player or keep the spider at a distance. Give the player a 32x32 column and he can use it as cover for the entirety of the fight. I kept these limitations in mind while designing this map. 

 

e4m3

 

Yet another tight, economic map from Xaser. Plenty of fun areas, like the fake exit that turns off the lights and spooks the player. Quality stuff. Such tight design... like a puzzle with all the pieces in place, perfectly connected, and with nothing extra.

Edited April 2, 2017 by NaturalTvventy

[rehelekretep]

1 hour ago, NaturalTvventy said:

Probably because I could care less about NIN

could care less

 

[NecrumWarrior]

7 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

*Snip Video*

I couldn't like this post more

[Demon of the Well]

Better Late Than Never (TM)

 

Given time constraints last month, I wasn't able to keep up with the thread, but since I pushed hard to have the WAD played I reckon it's the least I can do to toss in a few words here. Alas, in the interest of time, going to try out a different, shorter posting format here, and try to cover large chunks of each episode per post, but since there's generally more to be said about the later levels than about the earlier ones (by all three authors) we'll see how long that lasts. As a token gesture, I've also got skill 4 FDAs for the whole set, save for the bonus map (wait....maps?!), though E4M7 is a largely incomplete DNF file since that map appears to be fatally broken in both PrBoom+ and Eternity in the current version of the WAD (that or I'm utterly incompetent, which is a very real possibility, granted). Without further ado....

 

Episode I: 1994 Ways to Die

NEIS begins in a fairly unassuming fashion with an iteration on one of the most enduring staves of PWAD design, Ye Olde KDiTD retread. For most players, this will be a more or less familiar take on a most familiar setting, with a number of the maps noticeably echoing specific IWAD maps or concepts. NaturalTvventy's unique design style is found in spades below the surface of a number of these levels, though by its nature much of this is content that many players will never see; mainline progression echoes a lot of familiar Phobos tropes, and while I don't think any of these make for particularly credible Romero impersonations, of the four episodes, this is nevertheless the one where the project's origins as DTWID hopefuls is most apparent, though ironically neither of the two(-ish) maps in NEIS which actually appear in the original DTWID are found here.

 

E1M1 -- Terminal - FDA

As one might expect, this is a traditional Hangar-style introductory map, compact and set up for quick and simple straightline progression from start to finish, with a bevy of secrets and optional ground to cover to entice the inquisitive (or the completionist). Battles are entirely elementary, using the classic E1/skill 4 triumvirate of troopers, sergeants and imps in a simplistic mélange of wandering opposition. Many enemies fire through screens of the Phobos slash-blinds or through windows from different areas of the installation, and attrition factor is probably slightly higher than in "Hangar" itself since less spatial distance is at play, though this also means that enemies will often fight each other before you really have much of a chance to encounter them. The requisite outdoor secret is present here, though not advertised in a particularly obvious way, and even these early secrets are a bit more advanced than what one often sees in thematically/conceptually similar sets, including nesting and damage-taxed hideaways, the faintest of hints of what is to eventually come in NEIS.

 

E1M2 -- Slime Trails - FDA

Intuitively enough, E1M2 echoes "Nuclear Plant" in general feel--bigger floorspaces and a looser sprawl of conceptually distinct areas for more of a relaxed, ambling roam of an engagement--though in execution it's even more freeform, less like the standard E1 Romero plan of a main level/progression spine with chains of optional content stuffed behind the backdrops and tangled amidst the layout's undercarriage and more like a Petersenesque romp where the main level goal (the blue keycard in this case) is sat in a fairly casual, incidental location which can theoretically be reached in seconds (and from a couple of different directions in this case), with much of the rest of the mapspace being entirely superfluous from a purely pragmatic standpoint. Stylistic pedants might also note that the map's name is an abstract play on words, rather than the name of a particular location, as is the case for the entirety of the IWAD (save the latecoming E4), and indeed, most of the rest of NEIS.

 

True to slot traditions, one of the major (but entirely optional) areas is a sizeable and lightly populated 'maze', here trading darkness for ankle-deep nukage seep. As said, it's very easy to skip this entirely, though a limited visit is required for access to the chaingun secret, which requires a light spot of lateral thinking and early establishes what will be a running theme in many of NT's maps in the set: just because you've found the entrance to a secret, and even how to open it, doesn't necessarily mean you've found how to actually obtain what it contains. While many of the E1 (and other) maps in NEIS are traditionally Doom-abstract in style, NT's highly involved approach to secret-hunting, which often requires some interaction between different areas of a map, helps to establish sense of place and lends each environment a particular personality, a key factor in OG Doom where the limited bestiary allows for less immediately hook-y encounter design out of the box.

 

Dig the elaborate exit sequence.

 

E1M3 -- Logistics Center - FDA

Ala "Toxin Refinery", here it's much more evident that there's a lot going on behind the scenes and away from the main thoroughfares in this installation, with a number of areas and items visually advertised, but with no immediately obvious way to reach them. Intrigue! Finding at least a couple of the many secrets likely serves as a lead-in to what is clearly a full-on sidequest, intuitive enough given that the majority of players these days understand that the secret exit is traditionally found in E1M3 (though even in this regard NEIS can trick you, as we'll eventually see....). Knowing that something is afoot and being able to sleuth out what that something actually is are two very different things, however, and the difficulty of some of the secrets here reaches a new level, including the first of many instances of it being possible to unwittingly lock yourself permanently out of much of the map's content: if you are given over too unswervingly to shooting first and asking questions later, you will very likely never reach the red keycard, which requires that one take advantage of the scuttling about of a pack of imps to actuate some crucial motion triggers (which of they of course will be unable to do at the crucial moment if you had dispatched them all earlier on). The player is given a chance to observe the patently unusual setup before acting (a luxury which becomes scarce to the point of non-existence in some of NT's later maps), it's true, but the logic used here is contrary enough to the basic rhythm of 99% of the game's 20+ years of content that it's difficult to fault most players who here fall afoul of their own bloodlust. Very bold design choice by NT here, obscuring such a considerable chunk of content in this way, in a community culture where many players will only play a given WAD through once (if that), given the depredations of IRL and the wealth of content to choose from.

 

Incidentally, the FDA eventually turns into a max, IIRC, a result I felt pretty good about, must admit. Makes for a long engagement, though--the particular progression rhythm of the map eventually takes something like a Hexenesque turn, where one ends up systematically combing old ground for new developments, gradually unlocking more of the peculiar hidden Cube-icle command module, which as aforesaid helps tying the host of disparate areas into something suggestive of a unified whole. As a result, the overall pace also tends to stay in that more chilled out "Nuclear Plant" zone, where the combat is more of a backdrop to the environment than vice versa, in contrast to the steadily escalating sense of violence which the original E1M3 is also famous for introducing.

 

E1M9 -- Quarantine Silos - FDA

I'm inclined to agree with the Club consensus that this is one of the E1 highlights, a nice cathartic payoff for the trouble it takes to reach it legit by navigating the slew of brainteasers in E1M3. Again, we don't have to try too hard to draw some parallels to the level's analog in the original KDiTD--like "Military Base", it's a comparatively simple layout with much more of a focus on combat for the sake of it than on navigation/exploration--though perhaps moreso than any other of NT's maps in the episode it stands out as something with a conceptually unique character far removed from its KDiTD counterpart and a decidedly more 'modern' slant on gameplay, with masses of mixed miscreants unleashed in waves keyed to clever timing mechanisms which see the titular Silos open in ponderous yet fateful sequence. It's crass massmurder punctuated by some brief spates of sewer-spelunking--just go nuts and kill shit, that's what the map is for (could've done with a few more rockets and/or barrels though, IMO). The Silos themselves are fascinating and evocative constructs, a rare example of a structurally abstract, never-was Doomthing that also serves a very obvious purpose in-world, in this case a sort of vat holding extraplanar specimens and the hell-maddened human test subjects of the storied Anomaly project.

 

E1M4 -- Abandoned Factory - FDA

This level seems to take almost purely an atmospheric tack, using a lot of big, empty-feeling spaces at a lot of different light levels, which all tend to feel subtly unwelcoming somehow (ironically a feeling perhaps most pronounced in the least populated of their number); I felt that the bigger, boxier orthogonal construction style with mostly conventional connections between areas here is a cleverly timed instance of 'do more with less' in contrast to the busier, more uncanny style of E1M3, though I can certainly understand how someone might find the overall presentation more 'bland' as opposed to 'atmospheric.' The use of the stock slot track does the level absolutely no favors in this regard, IMO, and this is actually one of my biggest complaints about NEIS as a whole--IIRC, save for one map in E3, the entire set uses the stock music in the stock running order regardless of the moods/characters of individual NEIS maps, which is a low-grade but persistently nagging detriment to immersion. I always appreciate a new soundtrack, but I don't feel it's necessary for a successful megaWAD project; nothing more than a redone selection of stock Doom tracks would've more than sufficed in this case.

 

Action here remains fairly sparse given the level's spatial character--the episode has certainly established itself as being something of a slow-burner in the midst of a slow-burning subgenre at this point--though there's something of a 'survival horror' aspect evident in the early going from pistol-start, where you can shoot your pistol dry and make no real progress if you're not paying attention, with the level's semi-requisite early shotgun tied to a mass imp ambush which pressures more through requiring you to spend almost all of your ammo than by actually hemming you in. Though understated, the overall impression, as with E1M9 and Xaser's map later on, is of a level not as obviously colored by the shadow of particular KDiTD maps, though I suppose the toxin-drenched eastern concrete chambers do have something of an air of "Central Processing" about them.

 

 

Out of time for now, more tomorrow if I can swing it. Thanks for reading!

Edited April 2, 2017 by Demon of the Well

[rehelekretep]

if i could like this more than once (love it?) i would :D

[Demon of the Well]

E1M5 -- Warehouse - FDA

Interesting one. Like E1M4 before it, it also takes more of an initially atmospheric tack--early on you can look down from the grated upper gantries onto the silent warehouse chambers with their flickering fluorescents, just knowing that there's no way in hell they're going to stay silent forever--and is also less obviously redolent of any particular IWAD map, though of course the little blue key trap is basically straight out of "Toxin Refinery", and there's a Hall-esque terraced mini-maze around the red key that is vaguely reminiscent of "Command Control" somehow. Then, of course, there are the four crate-clogged warehouses, though this type of room is such a foundational part of basic techbase grammar that immediately likening them all to E2M2 is more than a mite overly lazy, IMO--these are primarily impromptu arenas, not mazes, and the commitment to using more or less the same trap 4 times in a row  to rapidly grow the level's bodycount underscores that this is a (mainline) level more focused on combat for a change, in contrast to the labyrinthine riddle-trails of earlier maps, which is appreciated. I think the pistol-start balance is a little too overly stingy with rockets for maximum satisfaction (and that's assuming you find all the secrets), but this is a minor complaint, all things considered.

 

Not to say that there aren't secrets, and that they aren't still on a higher level of sophistication than standard off-texture closet fare, mind you. To even get into the soulsphere area you need to mentally hone in on a certain continuous background noise as more than just cosmetic ambience, figure out what's causing it, and then address the issue, which requires either very sharp eyes or poking into an environmentally pernicious corner of the structure (or both) and some knowledge of engine behavior (which is nicely lampshaded with a perfectly reasonable diegetic explanation in this case). Never mind the two-part nested secret beyond this (and take note of the culprit, this is not the last time such an object will prove pivotal in accessing hidden areas)! Regardless, in contrast to earlier maps, these are mainly just brief bonus asides, and you don't really miss much of the level's content by missing or skipping the secrets in this case, underlining the map's role as a more condensed/straightforward experience.

 

A minor but cool aesthetic detail which is carried through in the rest of the episode's maps from this point: note that evening is falling on Phobos, and the shadows are lengthening, though E1M6 is sat up higher in the hills and illuminated by floodlights, apparently.

 

E1M6 -- Power Core - FDA

One of the episode's weaker maps, I feel (and thus, one of the game's weakest).....almost nothing from my playthrough stuck in my memory about this one, and I needed to view the FDA recording to jog my memory. Granted, this sometimes says more about the player than it does about the map, but I guess I'm giving myself the benefit of the doubt in this case. :D

 

The most defining characteristic of this level is that it's full of long, narrow, winding sinewy corridors, presumably intended to suggest wending one's way through some kind of big transformer structure, Aliens style, though in effect it comes off more like another sewage/refinery plant than anything (limitation of Phobos' visual idiom, perhaps). Bodycount is high, comparatively speaking, though most action simply involves plowing through squishy bodies clogging up whatever bend or clearing happens to be ahead of you. Par for the course, there are a number of windows into separate areas, though in practice you don't end up fighting through them very much, since monster pathing tends to see enemies group up in slow-moving clots in otherwise totally unremarkable bits of the layout. The large junction room just south of the red door seems intended to see you mobbed from all directions, but since these are just E1 mooks and the area's so big and so full of easily defensible twists and bends it doesn't really pan out well.

 

The structural character of the layout is certainly distinct from surrounding maps, the most striking features being a few walkways over or skirting around deep pits (essentially more narrow winding corridors, just without the bounding walls), but all told neither the action or the environment is particularly charismatic in this case, and even secrets are a little more rote than is the norm in NEIS. Not really offensive, all told, but definitely underperforms both conceptually and in play terms relative to many of its peers.

 

E1M7 -- Biosphere - FDA

Towers. Poison. Bloodlust. Wanderlust. Your pedometer weeps. Xaser

 

Pleasant surprise, this one. Not in the sense that it's a cool map, mind you!--I usually expect to enjoy Xaser's work, and have seldom been disappointed--but for whatever reason I mistakenly had it set in my mind that it was going to be a map I'd already played somewhere else. I guess this is because of the name, "Biosphere"--there's another, completely different map by that name that's either in DTWiD or DTWiD:LE (both of which I've played), apparently. But, this is something completely different, a sprawling but deceptively simple installation comprised of a few huge cylindrical vault structures (the titular Biospheres) linked up internally via sinewy, squalid access tunnels, and externally via some protracted, airy hikes through the lunar landscape, the outdoor element being at least as pronounced in the setting as the indoor in this case. Very little of the TWiD design spec is evident here, and this is absolutely and unabashedly a Xasermap rather than any credible imitation of an id author, which highlights it in stark contrast to most of the rest of the episode, though not in an unwelcome way--on the contrary, it makes for a good climax (E1M8 being largely a formality in this case). That being said, there are certainly some faint but palpable echoes of the conceptual flavor of the original E1M7 here, in that there's a ton of scope for exchanges of fire between sequentially distant areas via windows and balconies and overlooks, and many parts of the level are also accessed by gritting your teeth and wading through the installation's slimy undercarriage rather than by using the primary thoroughfares.

 

Quite the walk, this one, a set key-gated sequence that nevertheless allows you a lot of freedom to explore in at least the first half of the proceedings, the layout forming something like a big loop that flows more or less evenly in both directions. Quite a high bodycount here, at 300+....to some extent this is a function of this being the episode's largest/longest map (though sleuthing out all of E1M3's mysteries probably realistically takes most players longer, including myself), but there's also an impression of heightened intensity since so many of that number are encountered in big scrappy mass-reveals rather than doled out piecemeal, ranging from chunky, chewy plus-sized traditional E1 closet ambushes to the big circlestrafing/rocket-tossing silo breaks to a bona fide pinky stampede.

 

The battle and exploration elements are nicely balanced and counterbalanced against one another here, in contrast to most of the previous levels, which seemed to markedly favor one or the other, making it a nice 'summation' type of level for the 'sode. One observation/realization about Xaser's general style struck me here: he's of course known for towers and spirals and....xaserlights, and all of those elements are present here, but look at the automap, ignore its alien crop circle-ass aesthetic for a moment, and note that something like 95% of it is actually traversible (given some secret-finding and occasional pragmatically pointless parkour, granted). Xaser's highly idiosyncratic visual/architectural elements are, more often than not, not just for show--they are places you can actually go, moving around in, on, and through them, not something that can be taken for granted given this is a 20+ year old engine. The tradeoff for this is that occasionally the actual playspaces inside of towers or other superstructures are, by necessity, really squidgy and cramped and not conducive to particularly vibrant action, but in measured doses this is a small price to pay for an experience where the fantastical geometry is a truly concrete part of the world, rather than just so much lovely sector-matte.

 

E1M8 -- Enigma - FDA

Have to admit I was expecting a third closet in that initial secret-chain with nothing but a monster in it. Too in-jokey?

 

That aside, again I find I'm inclined to agree with most of the rest of the Club's somewhat nonplussed reaction to this concluding level, which is an almost totally rote "Phobos Anomaly" redux, with a less devious fight (no real risk of a self-inflicted explosive crotch-shot because a specter managed to sneak up through your peripheral vision to give you a lil' smooch) and significantly less atmospheric buildup + coda segments to boot. Biggest risk is probably prospective spelunking in the ooze at the start, which looks like it might conceal something but in this case is a totally fruitless (and potentially fatal) venture. This is obviously a TWiDlike slot-hopeful piece of work, and is unfortunately way too predictable and formulaic as a direct result. I've played worse textbook E1M8 replacements, sure--far worse, in fact--but sort of like as is the case with very straightforward Dead Simple clones in Doom II megaWADs, it's tough to really feel excited about something like this after 20+ years of play. Not much more to say on this one, m'fraid.

 

Bonus map: E1M0 -- Tom's Halls

Not much to say about this one, either. This is pretty damned dire, very little of real merit here, though on a theoretical level the initial crash-flood of monsters which makes the V-sphere a genuinely important strategic object is kinda cool. The rest is a more or less D!Zone-caliber spate of clear-and-slog, slog-and-clear, a rather unkindly caricature of Mr. Hall's assorted mapping idiosyncrasies. Hard to feel too terribly affronted here given that this is just a toss-in bonus map, mind you (and one which cannot be reached through any form of normal gameplay), but suffice to say you really aren't missing anything if you give it a miss.

 

Hastur's beard, so many of the alpha assets are really butt-ugly, aren't they? One of those ongoing community love affairs I find it really hard to relate to, not unlike PSX Doom's signature discotech lighting. Different strokes, I guess!  

 

 

Uh....so much for shorter posts, eh? I'm hopeless, hopeless I tell you.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Demon of the Well

[NaturalTvventy]

e4m4 

 

I made this map after playing Xaser's e4m3. Hence the city theme. Yet more "inspiration" from Xaser. The idea of this one was to have the player always under fire from multiple directions throughout the map. Again I use cacos as turrets, this time shooting through distant windows, or teleporting around randomly so the player never gets a grasp of where the lightning bolts are coming from. The teleporting ground troops also add to the chaos, as the player never knows when a monster will appear where there were none prior. I like how this one turned out.

 

e4m5

 

NEIS was going on strong for the first year or two. There was an air of excitement and collaborative competition, and each reveal of a new map from my teammates left me feeling both ecstatic and exhausted by the quality I'd have to contend with. This fervor was sustained throughout the project, escalating to what seemed like would be the very end. Soon just two maps needed to be made, one from Xaser, one from Chris. Then, suddenly, radio silence. For weeks... months... until a couple years went by. Email pokes went mostly unanswered. I waited. Just one more map each. I wasn't going to fill in those slots myself. I really wanted one more map from both of the other teammates. Plus I'd reached a point of creative exhaustion, feeling like I couldn't make a map for the project if I tried. Perhaps we all had. But had my team abandoned me, so close to the conclusion of NEIS?

 

Finally, after what felt like a lifetime of waiting, Chris dropped this map on the team. My heart erupted with elation. NEIS rises from its grave! After changing my underwear I excitedly fired the map up. I saw great vistas of foreboding, rich detail. Shock set in, then panic. What is this?? This... this isn't vanilla... this is far too detailed... NEIS is vanilla... what is going on... walls collapsing... WT*^€!|# Chris!... after waiting so long... *bangs head on the table*... what am I going to do... WHAT AM I GOING TO DO!!!

 

Deep in my panic, I thought, we'll just have to strip it down! force it into vanilla... but can it even be done?? Would Chris agree to it?? How much work would that be?? Another year? Two? I can't wait that long! Why is it all falling down? Why, so close to sweet victory, is this project crumbling? Why are the gears grinding to a halt??

 

So then I just changed the final episode to limit-removing and went to work on e4m6 to fill Xaser's missing spot.

 

This map is, beyond any other in NEIS, pure Lutz. The scenes are familiar to anyone who knows Lutz's work. He is the master of the underground hell fortress. The start with the cyber feels like it should have been the end, but whatever. The whole map has that depth of immersion that only Lutz has the patience and artistic creativity to pull off. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by NaturalTvventy

[Demon of the Well]

Episode II: The Depths of Doom

E2 is something like a transitional stretch for the WAD, a halfway point between the DTWiD-style material of the first episode and the wilder and woolier stuff that becomes more and more prominent in the later parts of the game. What more fitting setting than Deimos, eh? The parallels between this episode of NEIS, which is comprised largely of cross-posted or simply rejected DWTiD maps (for 'inauthenticity', presumably, rather than poor play/make quality) repurposed for other ends, and the original "The Shores of Hell", where Tom Hall's alpha-period maps from an early/transitional stage of Doom's creation were sucked in and spat out warped and twisted by the Sandyvoid, are many and interesting. Also worth noting, on that point, that no other episode in NEIS has a more even spread of contributions between Xaser and NaturalTvventy (Lutz contributes a single map apiece to episodes 2, 3, and 4), whereas the rest are all compositionally dominated by NT, giving "The Depths of Doom" a different, more unpredictable sense of pacing than the rest. Stylistically and conceptually, most of these maps are significantly less conservative than those in E1, but of course, Deimos has always tended to be handled less conservatively than Phobos in PWADs as a generality, and so what's on display here, again, probably seems comfortably familiar to nostalgia-trippers, at least for the time being. While I'm personally of the opinion that the main reason to play NEIS is really to see and experience episodes 3 and 4, Deimos as a general theme and style is something that has grown on me more and more through the years, and I've come to enjoy its characteristically surreal ambience and more ready predisposition towards wildly varying level pacing between levels, and in that regard the NEIS team's take on the setting does not disappoint.

 

E2M1 -- Receiving Station - FDA

Xaser's "Receiving Station" is the first of a couple of NEIS maps originally created for the DTWiD project which actually found a home in said WAD's final roster, where it also occupies the E2M1 slot. For obvious reasons, too: much like NT's "Enigma" from the end of E1, the level is plainly something like an alternate version of the IWAD map it replaces, as opposed to a more wholly original concept in Deimos/Petersen style. So, like "Deimos Anomaly", this a level where bouncing around an initially inscrutable network of teleporter pads forms the main thrust of level progression. The other parallels are nearly as obvious, as well--the cacodemon debuts here (are there lost souls making a slightly early appearance? can't remember), there is a big lurid cherry-red structure smack in the middle of the lab to gawk at, a somewhat involved extracurricular sequence ending in the acquisition of a hidden plasma rifle, and so on and so forth.

 

Given that the basic concept of a 'normal' level like "Deimos Anomaly" is likely to be a bit more flexible/explorable than that of a 'boss' map ala "Phobos Anomaly", the conceptual parallels between this and the original IWAD map don't come off as being as forced/hackneyed as was the case with "Enigma", though speaking for myself I'd rather have seen something less abjectly homage-y, though perhaps I'd have felt differently if I hadn't already played the map in DTWiD, in fairness. On that note, while my memory of DTWiD itself is not exactly photographic, I did get the sense that this version of the map is slightly different from the one in that WAD, in mainly aesthetic ways (different texturing in some places, etc.), as a bit of trivia.

 

Solidly put together, for sure, though this particular genre of mapping has never really been my bag. Most entertaining bit here is that you can totally make the flying leap from the soulsphere secret into the center of the red geode-core thingy, even though I whiffed it in the FDA.

 

E2M2 -- Proving Grounds - FDA

This, now, is more up my street as far as IWAD nostalgia goes. "Proving Grounds" definitely has a lot of the same flavor as the classic "Containment Area", being a nightmarish wonderland of widely differing vignettes of industrial and military technology being gradually warped and overtaken by an unnameable eldritch force, which the player is largely free to wander about at will from the get-go (as a layout, it's also all fit into a more or less rectangular bounding frame, just like the original E2M2), where the flavor of the play is more one of slow-burn creeping dread than of whiteknuckle bloodletting, more an outing in psychological disquiet than an intense struggle for survival. Crucially, though, none of the many strange one-off rooms, odd interconnections, or any of the goalposts of level progression feel like specific homages to the original map (no crate warehouse in sight!!!), though I thought the blue key room was oddly reminiscent of "Spawning Vats", somehow, I suppose.

 

From a gameplay perspective you're firmly in the driver's seat for the duration, with shells, bullets and healing items scattered about plentifully enough to allow you to work through all of the level's opposition without too much sweat (Barons make an early episode debut here, incidentally); most of the enemy population simply wanders the eerie fluorescent-litten halls in nearly as much of a haze as you yourself do, and most of those sudden incursions of hellspawn which do exist seem primed more to spook you than to actually kill you. Given the amount of license you're given to roam freely, this laconic pacing mostly works quite well, I thought, with each player likely to encounter the assorted strangenesses in different sequence and from different angles, making each experience somewhat unique. If I've a complaint, it's that I felt that way too many of the level's assorted mysterious teleporters all dump you in that dim little computer room on the west side (which, in some cases, literally bucks you across the entire map) for no readily apparent reason, though perhaps this would have struck me less if I hadn't happened to clear out that area very early on, before finding any of said teleporters.

 

As is the case with so many of NT's maps, a big part of the draw of the experience here is in rooting out the generous helping of hidden stuff (the chainsaw + berserk secret literally right next to the exit latch is deliciously bizarre), an endeavor here lent a goodly amount of atmospheric flavor by the playful conceit of having many secret wall panels give way to reveal nothing more than festering corruption, an ancient marble mural, or a disquieting vision of tormented souls beneath--spooky! Coupled with the fact that a number of the level's areas initially reveal themselves as stretches of wall or other features of the structure give way unsolicited to reveal further mystery beyond, there's a sense that the compound is squirming with tenebrous life just beneath its concrete skin, and delving deep into the pile of secrets concealed behind some of the later key-gated progression indeed sees you uncover a nested sequence of secret chambers behind the walls (another 'meta' nod to the original E2M2, now that I think of it), terminating in a horrid flesh-nest roiling in the ductwork above the lab block.

 

The concrete/dirt waste-storage areas just before the exit area gave me quite the sense of déjà vu, as though I'd played it before, though I didn't remember the rest of the level while playing. I'm pretty sure this isn't in DTWiD:LE or anything....just one more bit of surreality, I suppose!

Edited April 5, 2017 by Demon of the Well

[NaturalTvventy]

E4m6

 

Take away vanilla limits from me and look at what you get. How much you enjoy a behemoth map like this depends on your play style. If you're a maxer or don't use saves this map will be miserable for you, as a random rocket to the face from across the gap that you never saw coming will certainly induce a rage quit. That's not my play style, however. I find the most enjoyment using saves in DOOM. I mean, it's built into the game. Not using saves is like not using run or strafe in my book. And to a saver, that random rocket death is a momentary setback that builds tension instead of induces rage (I hope).

 

The seed of this map was planted in my mind when Xaser told me he was thinking of making his final map of NEIS a slaughter map. I'm all for gameplay variety, so I figured I'd try my hand at it too. It was also along the lines of breaking my own rules; I generally hate slaughter maps. In the end neither e4m6 nor e4m7 really qualify as slaughter maps, but I am glad we pushed things in that direction at the end.

 

I further embrace the cyberdemon here. I believe throwing a cyber in slime pits was a frequent occurrence in the DOOM II iwad coop, which left an impression on me. I also embraced the BFG, which was also hard for me to do, as it can seem overpowered. 

 

I stole inspiration from my industrial zone map in terms of aesthetics. I also tried hard to allow for freedom of choice and the ability to take on battles from multiple angles. I probably overdid it with the painful floors, but what else is new?

 

I certainly don't think this is my best map of the set due to its size, but it's my favorite. I feel like I shoved in as much DOOM into a single map as humanly possible, making use off all monsters, weapons, and items. I play this map the most, picking new routes each time to see how things will wind up by then end.

 

 

[Demon of the Well]

E2M3 -- Contagion Engine - FDA

Industrial waste. Serpentines. Turpentines. Triarchy. A map layout which looks like a nightmarish, Gigerified snapshot of Chiquita Banana making an O-face. XASER!

 

The obvious/inevitable point of first comparison here is, of course, "Refinery" from the same mapslot in the original game, presenting as it does a network of stuffy interweaving access corridors and toxic veins lacing and crisscrossing a handful of open junctions, with the braced walkways over the northern poison/blood tanks being particularly evocative of said map (no largely inconsequential pumping flesh-cube room, tho). It also strikes me, in hindsight, that probably moreso than any other single level in the game, this is painted in a dizzying array of wildly contrasting and clashing textures which strongly evokes that peculiar Hall/Petersen brand of thematic non sequitir which ranges from the 'imaginative' to the simply 'ugly', with the checkboard floor/ceiling tile found in a number of areas reading like nothing so much as a visual grenade. Also like the original, a number of the different areas are focused one-offs which seem like they exist foremost as experiments in architectural design (particularly the weird fan-shaped RK computer area), though this is not terribly uncommon in Xaser's own usual style, I suppose. As a whole, of course, this is vastly more sophisticated and hardworked than the original E2M3 (not that this is a particularly impressive feat, in fairness!), trading that map's battery of secret doors and back entrances connecting up its rooms for a great deal of visual interconnectivity around and through the central pumping structure, some sort of fractal panopticon which must be cracked open like a walnut in order to reach the exit switch, which lends the setting more of a sense of cohesiveness, whereas the original "Refinery" has always read to me as being little more than a fragment or a small collection of scraps.

 

Combat here never really seems like level's focus, though placements and expected developments (key guardians appearing after the fact and such) are all quite reasonable in the context of the eccentric geometry; ultimately I suspect this is largely a case of the geometry being too consistently constrained in scale to allow for anything really dramatic in the encounter department, though what's there is serviceable enough. There's a great deal of visual interconnection between parts of the map both near and distant, as aforesaid, though since the monster mash is not particularly hitscanner-heavy in this case and parts of the structure in the central vat are so monolithic there's no particularly pronounced element of player exposure, and there's a definite sense of division between the map's northern and southern halves. I recall I used the berserk pack quite a bit in the FDA, though this was more by choice (however poor this may occasionally have been!) than by necessity. A brief encounter with a lone Baron in the northern blood tank also sticks out in my mind, pegging him with the shotgun while tootsie-footing around the narrow, zig-zagging pathway to avoid soaking damage from the harmful red liquid.

 

A colorful and structurally/visually vibrant level, for sure, though the action's not a patch on what's to come.

[Demon of the Well]

E2M4 -- Derelict - FDA

This is an interesting one. First off, it's another Xaser Acheron map, and knowing this it's not hard to see his hand at work all over the place--in scalar terms, the plethora of cut-through sectors, the transformative airlock/hive area, the spiral access stairway in the center of the ship, etc.--and yet if you had told me it was authored by someone else I reckon I'd have taken the words at face value without much deeper thought, since it is mostly bereft of the more ostentatious architectural and structural features which have become all but synonymous with his name, and handles its use of cinema and spectacle in a completely different way as well.

 

Knowing that NEIS had its origins in the DTWiD project, I suspect that what we see here is that rarest of id-mitation baubles (though all 6.5 of Shawn Green's diehard fans probably beg to differ on that point!), an attempt at a pure Tom Hall map. It's not at all hard to see why it wouldn't have made it into that project--the level of representational fidelity and conceptual intricacy is vastly too high to ring with 1993 authenticity--but beyond cosmetic considerations I think it's one of the most credible imitations I've seen. Tom Hall's core conception of Doom design was, by all accounts, founded in lending the action some concrete locational (and, less importantly, narrative) context, and "Derelict" is immediately identifiable as an abandoned spaceship, complete with engine room, crew quarters, mess hall, shower room, airlocks, waste disposal sump, loading bay, engineering block, and any number of other features, wrought in mostly clean and shiny sci-fi style, more Alien than Aliens, if you catch my drift. As a layout, it plays and functions in a way not at all dissimilar from the post-facto Hall/Petersen 'collabs' which fill the actual IWAD's second episode--sort of a free-roaming dungeon-crawl through a variety of discrete environments within a confined zone--though the clarity of depiction of the setting and the way it influences actual level progression is much greater than anything in the original game. The overall impression is of an 'HD' version of "what might have been" if Hall had remained in the team, his creative vision more organically integrated with the game that Doom became--freely abstract where it needs to be in order to suit gameplay and flow, but with the sense of a definite realistic space fully apparent.

 

Also of some remark is the level's mapslot. E2M4 "Deimos Lab" has become widely remembered as one of the most atmospheric levels in the original game with its patently unhurried yet strangely ominous marriage of scale and pacing, and while "Derelict" certainly has creepy elements to it--the depiction of crawling infestation in the crew quarters, etc.--it's much more immediate in its pacing and less framed around psyching you out than one might expect, the biggest scare would probably be stumbling into the arms of two Barons in the turbine room. Lots of killing to be done here, in what is a deceptively lengthy level fit into a fairly limited space, meaning that the largely straightforward/incidental nature of the fighting is colored mainly by so much of it taking place at point-blank range. As in many of these earlier NEIS levels, the real focus is patently on the environment and finding out how to reach the hidden stuff (YK and such in this case) and how everything ultimately fits together; consequently, the FDA I left here is quite long (probably painfully so), as it took me a while to sort everything out, surely a combination of general dunderheadedness on my part (trying to brute-force my way into the soulsphere room, etc.) with some design decisions that lean heavily on stretching the immersion factor to the point of minor fault (i.e. knowing/assuming that the bridge over the turbine room will simply rise if you try to walk over its empty space while it is lowered). Nevertheless, this should be particularly appealing to fans of OG Doom's more historically deliberate pacing.

 

E2M5 -- Deep Storage - FDA

In direct contrast to E2M4, this is a deceptively concise level spread out over rather an expansive stretch of real estate; reaching the normal exit only takes a brief few minutes if you know where you're going, which I suppose again draws some easy parallels to the IWAD counterpart "Command Center", though in this case the secret exit is not, in fact, quicker and easier to reach than the normal one, and I doubt it's something many people will accidentally stumble on. ;) Not that the FDA here is short, mind you....took me waaaaaaaay longer than it should have to figure out how to reach the plasma rifle in the locked armory, for instance!

 

This aside, it's really much easier to contextualize this with other NEIS levels than it is IWAD stuff in this case. The slow/atmospheric start, where your avenues for exploration are limited by the facility's power being out, is in many ways reminiscent of NT's "Awakening" level (and also that one level in Xaser's Lost Episode whose name I can't remember, but which also starts out conspicuously silent*) while simultaneously supplying the demi-requisite E2 crate maze, and the broad web of deep slime channels and cylindrical sampling chambers comprising the eastern half of the map is conspicuously conceptually similar to some other segments that have already appeared a number of times in NT's other NEIS maps, particularly the dark, musty ductwork aspect of E1M4 "Abandoned Factory." By NT's stylistic standards, this, like Xaser's E2M4, is also a heavily representational setting, with most areas serving a credible in-world purpose, though there are pockets of abstract Deimos weirdness lurking around the edges and in certain crannies and crevices. Battles are, again, not really the focus here, and it's a slow-burning level overall, though I found the uneven pacing of the action faithfully suited the more or less traditional Deimos atmosphere on offer nicely, contrasting periods of eerie, exploratory quiet with focused bursts of violence involving either higher bodycounts or more pressure (though never really both at once, I must say), ala the warp-in wave that intuitively arrives after you switch the backup power on, or the quickfire nested closet-traps staged around the exit areas in the guts of the waste disposal system.

 

Par for the course, the secret exit here is again quite tricky and a relatively involved process, though I found I understood it almost instantly in the FDA, which surprised me after the slow process of unraveling E1M3's secrets earlier in the game. This is simply because the 'break point' mechanism--that is, the place where you can unwittingly lock yourself out of the secret path--is one I've seen more than once before in other WADs in the past. The idea is that you use some imps as moving targets to pull an autoaimed shotgun shell up to a level you otherwise would be unable to target in order to trigger a conspicuous yet vexingly-placed impact switch (habitual mouselookers need not apply, I suppose), and if they die before you manage to hit it (or realize that it's a thing to be hit), you're simply shit outta luck. As aforesaid, this unusual and extremely meta-gamey contrivance is one I've personally seen before--most recently in PCorf's CC4 "Vulcana" map, IIRC--and one it's pretty easy to spot once you've internalized it as A Possible Thing, though again, it's tough to fault players who may instinctively pull the trigger too soon, as the staging here is less immediately bizarre/suspicious than the noisy nest of tripwires involved in E1M3's RK quest.

 

The BK-get, which you need to complete before even reaching this point (it's integral to lowering the level of waste in the tunnels in order to uncover the hell-burrows beneath), is also extremely cheeky, come to think of it, in that it's a sort of double-bluff founded in making you assume you've unwittingly locked yourself out of it (using what seemed to be a rare door-closing impact trigger), though in actual fact claiming it is as easy as remembering where it was, walking over to its sealed enclosure, and simply pressing spacebar. If all that sounds unreasonable, well....just wait for the secret level sequences in E3 and E4. ;)

 

* E5M4, "Carrol Street Station"

Edited April 11, 2017 by Demon of the Well

[NaturalTvventy]

e4m0

 

RGC Alpha, a clone of my Back to Saturn X map, Red Gas Circle (coming in episode 3). Essel tapped me to join the project five+ years ago, which was quite the honor. He told me that he'd like me on the team, but humbly requested I keep the layout under control (he'd just tested NEIS e2m7 and found it confusing apparently). After getting over the shock that there was a DOOM II (why didn't anyone tell me??) I promised Essel that I'd keep things less expansive than e2m7, but that if he didn't like my map I'd simply use it in NEIS instead. Suddenly I was working on a project with many of the same authors of ZPack, a map set that blew me away in terms of detail, design, special effects, and fun. A map set that got me back into DOOM after so many years away. A great honor indeed.

 

RGC was one of the quicker maps I've made, with development time clocking in at a week. I was excited to be working in vanilla but to be free from the bounds of the DTWID philosophy. RGC was inspired by Xaser's The Crusher, which I've already praised for its concise layout. The concept of altering a tower's geometry to allow for access from below, then from above, was taken from Crusher. Dead Simple can also be felt when playing the original DOOM II version. 

 

Like here on the DWMWC, RGC inspired controversy and drama when first released on the BTSX forum. There it wasn't the blue key trap (which is probably a bit more manageable in the DOOM II version), but instead the bamboo stilt platforming and the timed second jump from the tower that caused some to complain. After a page or two of various team members chiming in with their opinions on the matter, which ranged from "it sux" to "i had no prob", Essel made the executive decision and told me that I needed to move the bamboo stilts closer together for the map to make it into the final product. I wasn't at all a fan of this idea, because it meant the player would be able to run in a simple straight line from one end to the other, instead of requiring a little fancy zig-zagging, and given that many mappers I respected praised the map as is I decided I'd rather leave the poles in their current configuration and convert the map to DOOM for use with NEIS. This didn't make anyone happy, and Essel seemed genuinely saddened with my decision. Xaser came to the rescue as the voice of reason, and suggested I move the stilts for the BTSX version of the map, and leave them as-is for a NEIS version. I decided that Xaser's idea was the best, and so now there are two versions of RGC. I always wanted the BTSX version to be released first since it was the original, but the wait for episode 3 just turned out to be too long.

 

Despite how linear it is compared to much of my work, I consider RGC to be the best map I've ever made. It has tricky platforming, interesting architecture, lots of moving pieces, good flow, and some crazy combat. I feel that I pulled off the industrial theme well, with the perpetually-moving central platforms populated by snipers, the spinning turbines, the harrowing heights and nutty jumps, and the large, locked gears. I prefer the DOOM II version, as it's really what the map was designed for and feels a bit tighter. Obviously there are plenty who disagree on its quality, but I'm quite proud of it.

Edited April 13, 2017 by NaturalTvventy

[NaturalTvventy]

e4m7

 

Be-a-u-tee full.

 

e4m8

 

First it was a barrel stalling a rising floor in e1. Then it was a barrel stalling a floor rising behind the scenes that had to be blasted by a rocket in a mini IOS in e3. Then it was a barrel keeping a door perpetually re-opening in e4... Now, finally, the evolution of the barrel-stalling-a-thing trick reaches its zenith with... a full-sized IOS!! Xaser made the "cinematic" epiloge of this map, with the buildings crumbling into lava. The rest was me. The three spiders at the start were there to make the player think it would be another quick boss battle level, then, whaaaaaa.... moooore?? The rest of the map is a curvy reenactment of the IOS from DOOM II. I finally understood linedef overflow errors on this map because I spammed DoomBuilder 2's curve line tool and Xaser pointed out that it was what kept overflowing my map. Prior, whenever I experienced such an error I just added more blocking walls and strange geometry. My last attempt to tweak this was to add the sound of dying cybers once the core is blown, by teleporting some into crushers, but alas, barrels don't budge cybers an inch due to their immunity to splash damage, no matter how many you explode next to them. The idea of killing all the excess monsters with the barrels instead of with a crusher line just before the exit that someone here mentioned will certainly be implemented in the next (final??) bugfix release.

 

#------------------

 

That's No End In Sight. In case you couldn't tell from my posts, I loved making NEIS. It was a real passion project. The Xaser + Lutz duo was my dream team. I see them both as such strong mappers in completely different ways. What started as a simple DTWID clone expanded into a lot more thanks to their unmatched creativity. Nowadays I tinker with GZDoom Builder here and there but have only released one quick map for ZDoom. I have a bunch of custom monsters and weapons that I want to put to use, but work is slow.

 

Making DOOM levels is the only artist expression that's inspired me in life. Otherwise I'm purely utilitarian. Believe it or not, working with points, lines, and polygons and their attributes in a vector environment is exactly what I do for a living now, as a Geographic Information Systems Analyst, so if you want to do something with your life similar to making DOOM maps, it's a good choice, and requires the same spatial parts of your brain.

 

Thanks to all who played through NEIS here and made comments. I'm amazed at the quality of some of your commentary. It's gratifying to read people talking about my work. I hope NEIS has brought some enjoyment. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by NaturalTvventy

[Lingyan203]

Here's my No End in Sight playthrough if anybody wants to check it out! :)

 

[NaturalTvventy]

13 hours ago, Lingyan203 said:

Here's my No End in Sight playthrough if anybody wants to check it out! :)

 

Awesome. Thanks for posting.

[Lingyan203]

3 hours ago, NaturalTvventy said:

Awesome. Thanks for posting.

No problem! I still got the rest of Episode 3 and all of Episode 4 to go. E3M5 is kicking my ass apparently hahaha