Phase 2, MAP12 > MAP 20 (plus secret maps) management thread

13 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

I'm not aiming for perfection, I just don't have low quality standards. By "can't edit MAP06 into something I like", yes, that means I am unwilling to modify it, not that I'm incapable. At best, I may recycle some of the visually acceptable geometry, but you can bet I am not working with that map layout.

I've offered. Offer extends to anything pulled from Nex Credo or Sinister Intention. I still know the ins and outs of these maps, editing them should be easier for me than anyone else. So why not?

 

16 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

I don't know where you're getting 80% of 128 in that image

 

On 15/03/2017 at 5:36 PM, Blastfrog said:

in actual SotWB, [player sprites] are 80% scale in their DECORATE definitions).

 

I simply put the two together, was this not correct? Either way, I fucked up with describing *why* 96 is a good width; it multiplies (not powers, as I stated erroneously) to 384, a factor of 128 -- this making it easier for editors, right?

 

Either way, if the scales are fucked, It Worked For Doom 2TM. :P

 

21 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

At this point, I've decided that I'm going to work on my mapset privately for the most part. I'm not required to sit here and listen to premature and mostly baseless complaints, so I won't. I'll release a demo when I feel it's appropriate. Until then, I don't want to hear anything from anybody regarding my mapset unless they're asking to collaborate. If you don't like my direction and want to have some kind of influence to change it, do so with work and not words.

This however, gives me cause for concern. Now, I totally understand and respect a strong director's vision (and I have hitherto stated that I respect this in you), but up until now FreeDoom has been an open project. Open to collaborators, contributors, whatever. Your proposed in-private approach comes across needlessly destructive; a term which seems to describe your actions across the board.

 

I'll still work with you, but you gotta work with everyone else involved. That's why this has been, and IMO should continue to be, an open content project.

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26 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

All of that only if we even go with a "correct" scale for the Woolball map. Over on the actual Woolball thread, @luckypunk has been doing Doom 2 sized textures.

Isn't that kind of the only option, if we want to replace doom2's wolf textures?

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26 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

At this point, I've decided that I'm going to work on my mapset privately for the most part. I'm not required to sit here and listen to premature and mostly baseless complaints, so I won't. I'll release a demo when I feel it's appropriate. Until then, I don't want to hear anything from anybody regarding my mapset unless they're asking to collaborate. If you don't like my direction and want to have some kind of influence to change it, do so with work and not words.

 

 

 

Sorry, but that's not how collaborative projects should be done. They are all about sharing work, discussing development and listening to feedback. It seems you aren't interested in any of these points.

 

You seem to be intent on doing this like a dictator, calling all the shots yourself and mercilessly rejecting any part that you do not fully agree with -  and since you have received quite strong disapproval from nearly everybody else involved here, it's time to rethink your approach. It cannot work out if 3 people are doing different parts, two of them in open discussions who have already laid out their overall plans for all the maps involved - and then the third one who doesn't seem to consider a collaborative development a fruitful endeavour.

 

I know I'm not in a position to do anything about this, but I certainly won't hold my opinion back. What you are doing here is not going to end well.

 

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Freedoom has already been bikeshed into oblivion by every poster wanting to have their say. Maybe Sodadoom will be good and maybe it'll be terrible, but it'll probably at least have a consistent identity, something that Freedoom has lacked since its inception.

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45 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

At this point, I've decided that I'm going to work on my mapset privately for the most part. I'm not required to sit here and listen to premature and mostly baseless complaints, so I won't. I'll release a demo when I feel it's appropriate. Until then, I don't want to hear anything from anybody regarding my mapset unless they're asking to collaborate. If you don't like my direction and want to have some kind of influence to change it, do so with work and not words.

Hahaha... just when it seemed like things were looking up in the Freedoomland for about 5 seconds!

 

RIP Freedoom, again.

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2 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

Maybe Sodadoom will be good and maybe it'll be terrible, but it'll probably at least have a consistent identity, something that Freedoom has lacked since its inception.

At some point a project needs to have someone who ultimately decides what is going to happen otherwise nothing ever will.

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25 minutes ago, Tarnsman said:

At some point a project needs to have someone who ultimately decides what is going to happen otherwise nothing ever will.

 

Yes, the PROJECT needs someone who ultimately decides, but if you got one person responsible only for a small part of the project and then his first statement is to throw away half of it "because he cannot work with that stuff", I'm sorry he's the wrong choice for the post.

See it this way: He got 11 maps to work with, he already gave away two to another person for a different slot, he still wants to remove 4 or 5 more maps and still hasn't made the slightest announcement where to go, aside from "wait until I am finished".

 

This is NOT how you create a finished product. An important part is to make compromises, be it because you cannot remove all you dislike because you have nothing to replace it with or just for being able to deliver on time.

Not only that, but by announcing that he doesn't want to show what he's up to means that everybody else is left hanging with no idea how things turn out. Chances are that the worst case scenario of his ambitious plans imploding in a cloud of dust comes to pass and then the project is left as a torso, because now two maps are gone, nobody has done anything about the gaps, and the other maps he deemed 'non-workable' will also need the workover they didn't get before.

 

Edited by Graf Zahl
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18 minutes ago, Tarnsman said:

At some point a project needs to have someone who ultimately decides what is going to happen otherwise nothing ever will.

I thought that was the point of the csars in general?

Personally, I'm being transparent about my intentions; which right now is to get together a full set of maps which can later be tweaked and edited to form a cohesive whole; accepting other people's input (which isn't mandatorily and blindly followed, I hasten to add) until enough consensus on "this is done, we can quit fucking with it" is arrived at to call it.

 

Again, Blastfrog having a very strong and singular vision? A good thing. Probably what FreeDoom needs, but he does seem intent on throwing away any positive changes made to the project lately; many of which general consensus has been achieved.

 

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which is why Blastfrog is better off managing his own fork of Freedoom, as i mentioned earlier.

 

Blastfrog's history implies that he wants some kind of control to bring his ideas to reality. and his ideas imply that he has a very specific goal.

 

not to mention that he proposed being the art director of Freedoom (not directly mind you, but it was obvious he wanted that position, at least to me) once. didnt go down well at all. now hes in a position thats basically that.

 

it seems the general consensus of Blastfrog's plan is "no".

 

I propose Blastfrog manage his own fork in private, and letting someone else manage E1.

Edited by Voros

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At least give him a chance to do something before saying "go do your own thing instead". If the end result is an improvement on the original maplist, then cool, Freedoom benefits. If it's not, Freedoom remains unchanged and someone else can have a go at it.

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3 hours ago, Voros said:

which is why Blastfrog is better off managing his own fork of Freedoom, as i mentioned earlier.

 

Blastfrog's history implies that he wants some kind of control to bring his ideas to reality. and his ideas imply that he has a very specific goal.

 

not to mention that he proposed being the art director of Freedoom (not directly mind you, but it was obvious he wanted that position, at least to me) once. didnt go down well at all. now hes in a position thats basically that.

 

it seems the general consensus of Blastfrog's plan is "no".

 

I propose Blastfrog manage his own fork in private, and letting someone else manage E1.

 

My problem with him is that until now it's all talks and nothing to show, while showing a stong antipathy toward the material he needs to work with. It can turn out well, but the risk is high that it won't.

Giving him a chance is ok, but that'd mean doing his thing to one map and showing it around. It certainly would not mean doing stuff in private, discarding maps prematurely or in general not go into specifics.

 

But in general I have to agree. This project needs a different work style, especially when being compared to what the other two people are doing (i.e shepherding the material they got into a cohesive, releasable whole.)

 

That said, I'd really like to help, but my mapping sucks so it's doubtful that I could do something here on the maps, aside from giving feedback to the work being done.

 

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2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

But in general I have to agree. This project needs a different work style, especially when being compared to what the other two people are doing (i.e shepherding the material they got into a cohesive, releasable whole.)

 

Just have to ask, do you consider Jaws and my own approach to be a bad thing?

 

The way I see it, very few of the maps in my section were bad per se, I'd even have considered the old MAP18 to be of good enough quality were it not so damned close to the original Doom 2 MAP18 (a definite negative in this czar's eyes). Unless I'm mistaken, the mandate for FreeDoom is as follows:

 

  • Free
  • Original content
  • Open license
  • Compatible with the vast majority of /idgames mods
  • vanilla/chocolate Doom compatible
  • A full game in its own right

 

Quality comes into that last one, but not at the price of it being exactly as stated a full game. Many of these maps are what I've described as 'serviceable' (i.e. they do their job as maps adequately without being obvious filler) and it has literally taken well over a decade to get the project this far; fixing up what's there and meeting an overall level of quality seems to be a reachable goal even if it doesn't set the bar sky-high. I'd also say that the majority of these maps are nonetheless a good representation of what the game and its mapping scene is.

I'm rambling though.

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16 minutes ago, Jayextee said:

Just have to ask, do you consider Jaws and my own approach to be a bad thing?

I'll give my opinion and say no. I know you are veteran vanilla mapper, and ever since your maps went into Freedoom, it's become much more fun to play. Your thoughts on each map makes sense. I feel confident that E2 is in good hands.

 

While Jaws only showed one map, a map05 conversion, it delivered. He showed that he can exploit the meaning of "Hell" in maps and do it right. His approach is also different rather than the "E3 is only Hell maps" style. His opinions on each map also make sense, and given how people liked how his projects turned out, such as Bloody Rust IIRC, I'd say E3 is also in good hands.

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Just have to ask, do you consider Jaws and my own approach to be a bad thing?

No. It is clear that some work needs to be done but you are doing the right thing by laying out your impression of your maps first and giving details about what was dropped, but most importantly, you are working with the material that was given to you, not against it.

Quote

The way I see it, very few of the maps in my section were bad per se, I'd even have considered the old MAP18 to be of good enough quality were it not so damned close to the original Doom 2 MAP18 (a definite negative in this czar's eyes). Unless I'm mistaken, the mandate for FreeDoom is as follows:

I liked the old MAP18 as well, but the resemblance is so striking that it's an absolute no-go. Funny, when you actually compare them in an editor they do not look that similar but when seeing them in action it is very hard to overlook. If I had that map at my disposal, I'd try to edit parts of it to remove the resemblance, instead of dumping it altogether. Although I am a rather shitty mapper, I could try to rework it a bit and then hand it over to somebody with better mapping skills. Maybe something can be done about the old MAP26 as well. With both maps the problem is not that they are copycatting the entire original but that the start area in particular is too similar to the original Doom2 map in that slot. Having those two maps back as an option would make things somewhat easier I think, because both actually play well and look good. For MAP26, I think that even some retexturing can remove most of the problems. What are the Aquatex textures there for anyway? Here's a map that really could benefit from someone chainging its looks.

Quote

Many of these maps are what I've described as 'serviceable' (i.e. they do their job as maps adequately without being obvious filler) and it has literally taken well over a decade to get the project this far; fixing up what's there and meeting an overall level of quality seems to be a reachable goal even if it doesn't set the bar sky-high. I'd also say that the majority of these maps are nonetheless a good representation of what the game and its mapping scene is.

I'd mostly agree with that assessment. But I'd say the same about most community megawads, nearly every one of those comes with some filler maps or consistency problems and they are still mostly well received. Nevertheless, the maps I had most issues with in the past are now either gone or being reworked so it looks like you, Jaws, Voros and Catoptromancy have overall made good calls on what is good and what not and I'd wish that the same levelheaded approach could be applied to the first 11 maps as well.

 

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Okay, thanks for the vote of confidence; helps knowing I'm on the right track, after all.

 

So enough talk for now. Weekend's looming and in that time I said I'd make some changes to MAP31 as discussed. ;)

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MAP15 Update. Lowered windows in yellow key room so player can easily see the yellow key. Random switch at end of area opens door, and player is now aware of where to find key. Have not quite figured out where to put blue key, I think I will move it entirely. Also VPO is 99.9% gone, still lots of HOM. 

Use -nomonsters to explore vanilla map15, all doors are propped open.

http://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/freedoom/z0k/map15_c4_opendoors.wad

Edited by Catoptromancy

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There are certain broken lifts, thus I cannot explore the entire level. Is that expected as consequence of opening every door?

There is at least one drawsegs overflow, at +2130, +184, -128. Tutti frutti at -463, +810, -72 and +902, -1693, -64.

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MAP15: Vanilla Compatible. Swapped yellow key door, made it visible from window. Put blue key in yellow switch room. 100% in skill 2. No VPO.

http://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/freedoom/z0k/map15_c7.wad

 

I am done with map for now. I know there are still some other minor bugs. Will see if anyone else wants to do stuff with it first. 

Edited by Catoptromancy

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Just reporting in: MAP31's getting a lick of Aquatex-flavoured paint. DOWNLOAD -- but bear in mind I'm not finished with this yet. Exit pad is now a normal exit and I do have plans for the secret exit (there's a hidden switch for now), pending Shadow of the Wool Ball textures.

 

Changes made:

  • Aquatex usage, derp.
  • A bit more detail on plain walls that looked too boring. I've yet to tackle the Eastern room with this.
  • Assault Tripod in the Northern part of said room should be easier to squeeze by the side of now; and is totally gone in skill 1/2!
  • Final room is a little different in skills 1/2.
  • Tiny hint about red key locations (all skills)...

There's more to be done, just thought I'd drop my progress in here for the now.

DOOM05.png

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That looks bad.

Is it even possible to get this map down to vanilla limits without butchering it?

 

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21 minutes ago, Catoptromancy said:

Is it even a good idea to try and make a map that far over the limits vanilla compatible? Unless you can somehow make that map vanilla by removing a ton of the detailing what you are going to have to do is change up the structure, layout, & progression of the map which will probably clash with the authors original vision. I'm behind the idea of a vanilla FreeDoom, & it works to make the maps that are close to vanilla limits compatible, but when it comes to maps that are as far over the limits as this one is, it may be best to just start over from scratch with a completely different map.

 

Of course that bring up another problem of us not having enough maps for FreeDoom to fill up each slot. Would it be a good idea to make a post on the Wads & Mods forum asking for a few extra maps for FreeDoom to replace the ones that BlastFrog, Jayextee, & Myself have removed? Actually didn't Voros do a FreeDoom/Aquatex vanilla mapset awhile ago that was going to be used in FreeDoom, what ever happened to those maps?

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Remember some places are insanely overdetailed. Some mild restructuring will help immensely and can be made better than original. MAP12 is special out of all the Limit Removing maps in that it has multiple large areas. Some of those large areas are very detailed, but in very specific places. Once I finish, we can see if its salvageable. 

 

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If some areas could be reshaped and made less orthogonal to avoid the X-Treme™ long lines of sight, that would help a lot.

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37 minutes ago, Jaws In Space said:

Is it even a good idea to try and make a map that far over the limits vanilla compatible?

I'd be all for saving Catoptromancy or all other comers the stress and throwing it. IMO it's a decent map, but JFC that's a clusterfuck to even think about.

 

37 minutes ago, Jaws In Space said:

Would it be a good idea to make a post on the Wads & Mods forum asking for a few extra maps for FreeDoom to replace the ones that BlastFrog, Jayextee, & Myself have removed?

In favour. Presuming FreeDoom's not working to some kind of deadline, I'd step up myself with an original Phase 2 map for the slot after tending to what else is there (working on MAP31, I think some polishing of MAP16 is next on my agenda) -- as if my own maps aren't dominating the second segment already. :P

 

MAP15 still has a couple of tutti-frutti going on by the way. I'd have grabbed some screens, but I forgot to run Chocolate Doom with -devparm.

Edited by Jayextee

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If you think MAP15 is ok the way it is, ill go and fine tune the tutti fruttis and texture alignment. Can finalize MAP15 in a day or two.

 

I am up for the MAP12 challenge. We have plenty of time to see what I make of it. 

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I don't know about fine, I had a quick pass with IDDQD to check for HOMs and whatnot to see it working. Sir, you did some good work there. :)

And if you're up to the MAP12 challenge, be my guest. But oh boy I do not envy you one iota.

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The big crate lift area just feels off to me. Was thinking someone could remake it. It is also buggy. You can hit switch from inside pit, then hit switch from in building. Then entire lift area is raised over player head, turning it into a reverse illusio-pit. 

 

EDIT> I am going to finish up MAP15.

Edited by Catoptromancy

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11 hours ago, Jaws In Space said:

Actually didn't Voros do a FreeDoom/Aquatex vanilla mapset awhile ago that was going to be used in FreeDoom, what ever happened to those maps?

It is actually a 9-map CP, where mappers would pick a slot and create a map using the Aquatex textures. And it's going very slowly. It's a Doom 2 CP really. And I have it with me in a single PWAD (unfinished mind you, still have to check out bzzrak's map and possibly let someone else continue uhbooh's map).

 

Permissions to give them to Freedoom were not really mentioned, since it is merely an Aquatex mapset.

 

But Dragonfly submitted his Aquatex map to Freedoom though, feel free to use that (slot 8 BTW). With some work, this would become a good candidate for map12.

 

On the subject of map12, I don't think it's a good idea to try to convert it to vanilla, for reasons the posters above have voiced. I never could finish that map though, so I suppose it's for the best? Zok's other maps are in Freedoom and probably will for the foreseeable future, now that they've become much more better with the vanilla conversions (still some flaws, but nothing's perfect), but I guess map12 would be the exception here.

Edited by Voros

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