Why do people still mod Doom?

[Doomkid]

is the fun of mapping itself not enough to motivate you? Something I've learned over the years, never map to 'be appreciated' as it were, do it for the love of mapping. If people then end up enjoying it, that's a huge bonus. Taking this approach, you'll feel far less burned when your map only gets 3 downloads. Take it from someone who's been down that road myself!

[Officer D]

I always use to say. Classic BSP level design is like Lego only for the big kids. You get to be creative in unlimited ways with simple to use tools. Modern games require way too much know how and would need a entire team to create something really good looking. Where with classic games you can pretty much do it all by yourself.

[Nine Inch Heels]

I will have to agree with Doomkid on this one. You know, I am currently working on my first ever map, publically released map, that is. I've been doodling a little bit with Doombuilder and Slade, and it was good fun. Now, trying to put a rather sizeable map together is quite a "painful" process for me, because eventhough I am creating something I do enjoy (and I can only hope others do so as well), I am kind of pushing myself to do as best I can to give something back to this community. It's a bit of a double edged sword, though, especially since there are still a lot of things I need to familiarize myself with.

But despite some things not working as I imagined, or me simply making newbie mistakes when mapping, it is still good fun to be able to create something that can be experienced, and once it's finished even shared and talked about. As a matter of fact, trying to put something together makes me appreciate the work and passion others have put into their PWADs even more than I could have imagined.

The fact that I can fire up a level-editor and start something new from scratch is because of the low entry barrier when it comes to mapping. It simply doesn't tell me to go *f* myself, and instead invites me to try and see if I can create things based on imagination and personal preference. If anything, I firmly believe mapping is a very nice creative outlet, and that in and off itself is probably one of the main reasons why it's been around for so long. At least that's what I think.

[DooM_RO]

23 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I will have to agree with Doomkid on this one. You know, I am currently working on my first ever map, publically released map, that is. I've been doodling a little bit with Doombuilder and Slade, and it was good fun. Now, trying to put a rather sizeable map together is quite a "painful" process for me, because eventhough I am creating something I do enjoy (and I can only hope others do so as well), I am kind of pushing myself to do as best I can to give something back to this community. It's a bit of a double edged sword, though, especially since there are still a lot of things I need to familiarize myself with.

But despite some things not working as I imagined, or me simply making newbie mistakes when mapping, it is still good fun to be able to create something that can be experienced, and once it's finished even shared and talked about. As a matter of fact, trying to put something together makes me appreciate the work and passion others have put into their PWADs even more than I could have imagined.

The fact that I can fire up a level-editor and start something new from scratch is because of the low entry barrier when it comes to mapping. It simply doesn't tell me to go *f* myself, and instead invites me to try and see if I can create things based on imagination and personal preference. If anything, I firmly believe mapping is a very nice creative outlet, and that in and off itself is probably one of the main reasons why it's been around for so long. At least that's what I think.

Yep. It was exactly the same in my case. I made two HUGE 40+ minute maps and an IOS map but I also put a lot of emphasis on atmosphere and environmental storytelling. I was also really anal about it being for Boom and using only vanilla resources. It was really painful but I am quite pleased with the results. I just wish people played it.

 

When working on such big maps you kind of have to change your work ethic a bit. I mean if you make visual or editing mistakes and just say "I'll fix them later" by the time you are finishing your map you have a lot of tedious and boring menial work to do to fix those issues. Plus balancing, the 

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

Yep. It was exactly the same in my case. I made two HUGE 40+ minute maps and an IOS map but I also put a lot of emphasis on atmosphere and environmental storytelling. I was also really anal about it being for Boom and using only vanilla resources. It was really painful but I am quite pleased with the results. I just wish people played it.

 

When working on such big maps you kind of have to change your work ethic a bit. I mean if you make visual or editing mistakes and just say "I'll fix them later" by the time you are finishing your map you have a lot of tedious and boring menial work to do to fix those issues. Plus balancing, the 

I can only speak for myself here, but to be perfectly honest, I didn't even know you made something that sizeable recently. If you provide a link I'll sure try and have a go at your maps. But the thing I was going to point out is that probably because of how the old forum was, people might just have missed it to begin with, and that's nothing I think you should feel "bad" about. At this point in time, things are certainly going to be a lot more "traceable", for lack of a better term. Why not throw a link to your maps in your "status", if you haven't already? I'll certainly have a look at your maps by the weekend, I suppose.

[DooM_RO]

5 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I can only speak for myself here, but to be perfectly honest, I didn't even know you made something that sizeable recently. If you provide a link I'll sure try and have a go at your maps. But the thing I was going to point out is that probably because of how the old forum was, people might just have missed it to begin with, and that's nothing I think you should feel "bad" about. At this point in time, things are certainly going to be a lot more "traceable", for lack of a better term. Why not throw a link to your maps in your "status", if you haven't already? I'll certainly have a look at your maps by the weekend, I suppose.

I posted a link in the previous page.

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

I posted a link in the previous page.

Status updates... They're all the rage these days. ;-)

Those screenies sure look promising. I can vaguely imagine how much time and effort you put into those. Maps are already downloaded. :-)

[Jon]

4 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

I posted a link in the previous page.

It's not visible for at least me.

[GooberMan]

14 hours ago, esselfortium said:

I think it depends partially on how you define "pushing the envelope".

Partially, sure. And Sunlust is certainly a good example there.

 

I'm talking more of a long-term view overall. Doom was groundbreaking in 1993, which led to a community dissecting it and seeing how far they could push it. Mapping envelopes were being pushed alongside things like DeHackEd. The source release was a natural extension to both, resulting in limit-removing ports and new ways of not just reusing Doom's internal logic but creating entirely new logic sets. Both were continuing well along that path when I dropped out of mapping around 2003/2004.

 

While I was away, the retro backlash happened. A large part of the Doom community is now dedicated to seeing what they can do with the blocks that are already there. Something like Valiant does some great architectural things, but only implements logic changes through a DeHackEd patch. ZDoom mods are not worth talking about for the most part. It's difficult to find a mod or a mapset that isn't "old game <x> in Doom".

 

Essentially my point is that, for the most part, the community is happy to use and refine what has come before rather than see what other new experiences can be pulled out of the Doom framework. I'm guilty of this to some degree too - Prime Directive is explicitly a Doom mod and sits on top of the Doom mechanics, thus fulfilling the conservative part. But it also adds and remixes mechanics to provide a play experience that turns purists off. I've got another mod I put a week or two of work in to last year that will also fulfill the conservative-but-purist-unfriendly category I find myself in which will further illustrate that point... just need to find some time and inspiration to buff it up a bit.

[Archi]

It's fun. Fun to make, fun to play.

[Agentbromsnor]

Doom is something that truly put the FPS genre on the map, and in my opinion it's still one of the few FPS games that "feel" great when playing. It's hard to explain, but certain games tend to feel floaty, or stiff, etc. Doom got a lot of that right, which makes it a perfect reference and I absolutely love every indie game that uses the Doom source as its foundation.

[Lila Feuer]

It's true, a lot of FPS, even the better / great ones all have at least something wrong or wonky about them. Either too floaty, too grounded, bullet sponge enemies, overpowered attacks, underpowered or redundant weapons (worse if it's better in multiplayer weapons), engine isn't completely stable, AI breaks or is braindead, graphics aged like ass etc.

Doom is in the sweet spot in most departments, especially regarding weapon feel, weapon versatility, enemy behavior, enemy variety, level design, art direction, sound design, engine, moddability etc.

[42PercentHealth]

58 minutes ago, Agentbromsnor said:

Doom is something that truly put the FPS genre on the map, and in my opinion it's still one of the few FPS games that "feel" great when playing. It's hard to explain, but certain games tend to feel floaty, or stiff, etc. Doom got a lot of that right, which makes it a perfect reference and I absolutely love every indie game that uses the Doom source as its foundation.

Yeah, what this guy said! :-)

 

34 minutes ago, cyan0s1s said:

Doom is in the sweet spot in most departments, especially regarding weapon feel, weapon versatility, enemy behavior, enemy variety, level design, art direction, sound design, engine, moddability etc.

And what this guy said!!

[ShoDemo]

Well, Doom stands there as one of the most important games on the genre and that's for many reasons.

At first I was like, what is this game? (too old for me I thought back then). And some years later, after spending hundreds of hours in it, I just knew that this is the game I would fall in love with. Never have I felt like this for a game before. And that's because you have it all in one package as cyan0s1s said. Gameplay, balance, story (a bit crappy but ok nonetheless), modding capabilities, music, variety in weapons it's all there.

As for making wads, I am just starting out and I can say it is very pleasing for me to achieve even the smallest of all the things in the level. I made a small room and I know it is MY small room, which I created, no matter how much I spent on it (it could be 1 minute, it could be 5 minutes, it doesn't matter). It is that sense of achievement you get once you make something that keeps me motivated.

Last but not least, you can set your own goals in Doom. What I mean is I can choose to speedrun the levels or to beat them in a higher difficulty or to do a passive run or to get 100% secrets or pistol start and more. The possibilities are literally endless.

 

To sum up, Doom is like the canvas, the palette and the brushes of the painter. It gives everything you need and the choice is yours afterwards.

[Archvile Hunter]

I feel like Doom is just such a perfectly balanced mix of fun and strategy, that you have to really try to make a bad map. The core gameplay of blowing monsters away with guns is just so satisfying in itself.

 

Doom also his the perfect spot where it's easy to create something exciting relatively easily and quickly. Wolf was too simple, Quake was too difficult. Doom is just perfect.

[Lila Feuer]

It's easy to see results very quickly in Wolf but it's hard to make maps that are actually interesting with the limitations set in place (by default) so your imagination and creativity needs to be stronger to make good Wolf levels and a lot of the actual detail lies in the object placement, tile usage and ceiling color as opposed to unique level geometry.

[durian]

I've been messing around in Doom editors since the mid 90s. The game had a real hold on me when it was released - I was obsessed - and sometime before Doom 2 came out I remember reading an article in a PC magazine, which had included an editor on the cover-disc, explaining the basic mapping concepts. It's worth emphasising what a novel feature this was at the time; the ability to not only change aspects of the base-game, but also to produce original levels. This in itself was a big draw. My earliest efforts didn't go very well - the process was too complex for my 12 year old self to cope with (nodebuilder problems, iirc) - and I didn't pick it up again until about three years later when my friends and I started holding regular LAN parties and playing a lot of deathmatch. This led a couple of us into regularly producing levels (as well as editing music and graphics) for the rest of the group to play. I've maintained a semi-active interest in Doom editing since then. As for motivation, in my case I think the comparison with playing Minecraft today is an apt one. I really enjoy thinking about game design, and particularly about Doom-design, both SP and MP, but really this operates more to structure the more mundane activity which I really enjoy - drawing lines, making sectors, constructing virtual spaces, and bringing them to life with textures and triggers. It goes without saying that I really love Doom’s core gameplay, but that’s why I still play Doom; I still edit Doom because, for whatever reason, I get a real kick out of building things in Doom-space.

[Necr0n0m]

On 16/03/2017 at 11:14 PM, Decay said:

Active solicitation of responses from subjects for research = research ethics time

 

What exactly is your project and what are you hoping to gain in (what seems to be) a very short time?

What do you intend to do with information posted here?

Can users contact you or your supervisor if they have questions?

Does posting here automatically assume authorization for data collection?

Can users retract their statements if you quote them?

Are you going to change any names of users you quote?

For those you do quote, do you have an ethics form for them to sign?

Do you have REB clearance to actively solicit subjects?

 

In before "public domain"

 

Public domain only stands if you don't actively solicit subjects.

Apologies for not already highlighting that information on my research can be found in my 'about me'. I have edited my post to reflect this. All comments collected will be kept anonymous - whether obtained through participation or observation. But yes, my research, methodology and handling of data have all been approved by my university's ethics board. Let me know if you have anything else you want to discuss. You can view my profile to find my email. 

[Necr0n0m]

Thank you all for your responses to this post so far. It is very clear that the Doomworld community is truly remarkable and I hope to stick around beyond my research. If I choose to use any of your comments I will contact you directly to let you know. You will be kept anonymous (unless you'd like to be cited otherwise) and of course, if you do not wish for me to use your comment you can let me know. If at any time you'd like to cease your involvement in my study then please contact me (my email is on my profile). My final draft is due on the 7th of April and the deadline is the 21st of April so I have a lot of work to do but ultimately, this has been a very enjoyable experience. 

 

I have also been given a conditional offer to study Design & Digital Media at masters level so I can't wait to start doing more practical work. Modding is something I'd like to get into and Doomworld seems like the best place to be for it. 

[roadworx]

there's a lot of great responses here, so i'm sure that your essay will be great. i hope that all goes well!

 

and btw, it'd be great if you were stick around after this. always nice to have new faces around here :)

[joepallai]

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 6:51 PM, Necr0n0m said:

I am currently writing my final year dissertation for my honours degree and I am researching the Doom modding community. 

 

Doom means a lot to me, being the first PC game I ever played through. It is remarkable that a game that's over 23 years old still resonates with gamers and users continue to create mods to this day.

 

If you yourself make mods for Doom, please let me know what your main motivation is, or what got you into modding Doom in the first place. Also, let me know how long you've been modding Doom for. I'd be particularly interested to see how many of you were modding in the 90's or early 00's and are still producing content today.

 

Feel free to showcase anything you've created or are currently working on!

 

Cheers

 

*Please see my 'About Me' for further information on my research*

I have been making pwads since 1996, when I found Wadauthor and was able to use it successfully; previous attempts at Doom editing didn't work for me despite the excellent books written on how to Doom edit.   At the time my goal was to get into the game industry as I saw that as the future, full of like minded people (ie. gamers).   I thought that would be cool.  

 

What I really recall about making levels back then was how cutting edge it seemed compared to making a module using Unlimited Adventures, the Bard's Tale Construction Set, or the Jumpman and Lode Runner editors.   You really were making something out of nothing when you were Doom editing; and unlike the previously mentioned games, you could improve upon the graphics and visuals.  It was possible for someone to make a better looking level than the creators.  It was possible to do things that the creators had no idea existed within the game's code (ghosts, invisible stairs/platforms, sky hack tricks, etc).  

 

It really was amazing and exciting at the time.   I remember I would work 40 hours a week and spend as much time editing back then, just figuring things out and exploring what could be done.   No game has captured my imagination as much; sure I would try my hand at editing the next greatest shooter but I always went back to Doom editing as it was more satisfying--both in gameplay and in ease of results.    I think I just wanted to master an artform, as I started to think of Doom editing as an art.  

 

About three years ago I came back to Doom editing after a five year editing hiatus and worked on some Deathmatch levels; which was something different than my large single player levels.   It was a nice change and I found myself enjoying the process again, despite having to switch to a newer editor.   In some ways the newer editors are better and easier, but there's a couple of features that I miss.   

 

What motivates me now is the projects that I started over a decade ago.  I still want to finish them as the ideas I have for these levels still excite my sense of creativity and adventure.   The combat I had planned has been refined, so previous mistakes in the past shouldn't be there.   In other words, progress...I'm still learning here, which is amazing after 21 years of playing and editing.  

[Liberation]

Its still fun to play! modding and mapping is also a great pleasure.

[Decay]

6 hours ago, Necr0n0m said:

Apologies for not already highlighting that information on my research can be found in my 'about me'. I have edited my post to reflect this. All comments collected will be kept anonymous - whether obtained through participation or observation. But yes, my research, methodology and handling of data have all been approved by my university's ethics board. Let me know if you have anything else you want to discuss. You can view my profile to find my email. 

Seems your "about me" section can't be viewed. "New forum problems" I guess. Put it in the first post or as a status update and link that.

 

Sorry to be a nuisance but as a doctoral student doing work in this area and having used Doomworld in my own work, I feel obligated to point these things out.

[Jayextee]

Why I still mod DOOM is a weird one. I mean, back when I never wanted to; the game I wanted to mod was Quake back when I acquired from a friend a floppy disc (Internet access was, well, sparse between my social group at the time) with WadEd on it. I loved Quake, and DOOM was kinda; I dunno, some old basic shit which had grating midi metal on the PC version. Yuck, right?

 

But y'know, a level editor's a level editor innit. My budding and aspiring inner game-creator prayed for M&Ms, settled for Skittles.

 

But. As I mapped for DOOM, even my early efforts, I found I enjoyed playing my map to completion and just... going through the IWAD maps that followed my singular effort. Something about it eventually clicked and it's been one of my favourite games since. Of course, all of this was post-source release and I'd missed the heyday of modding that got so many people jobs in the industry and made superstars of them - so it seemed. It all got romanticised over the years, and I personally consider the scene's greatest asset to be just how strong it's been, and continues to be, in the twenty fucking years after its initial release.

 

What we've got here is a legacy, something that has outlived the regular lifespan of a regular game, and looks to do so into the next decade. And it's amazing to be a part of that -- and that last sentiment is why I still mod DOOM.

[Necr0n0m]

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Seems your "about me" section can't be viewed. "New forum problems" I guess. Put it in the first post or as a status update and link that.

 

Sorry to be a nuisance but as a doctoral student doing work in this area and having used Doomworld in my own work, I feel obligated to point these things out.

I'll just copy and paste it straight into the original post :)

[Jaws In Space]

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Seems your "about me" section can't be viewed. "New forum problems" I guess.

Is this a problem that needs reporting? Anyone else have an About Me that can't be viewed? I've got one with a link to my post on Doomkids WAD Discography thread, can you see it?

[Necr0n0m]

13 minutes ago, Jaws In Space said:

Is this a problem that needs reporting? Anyone else have an About Me that can't be viewed? I've got one with a link to my post on Doomkids WAD Discography thread, can you see it?

Seems like you can write your own 'about me' and save it and view it but the tab isn't visible when you visit other profiles?

[Jaws In Space]

4 minutes ago, Necr0n0m said:

Seems like you can write your own 'about me' and save it and view it but the tab isn't visible when you visit other profiles?

Here's what I see when I visit your profile page.

[Doomkid]

I can't seem to find 'about me', only on mobile? I might just be blind though..

[Necr0n0m]

11 minutes ago, Jaws In Space said:

Here's what I see when I visit your profile page.

Yeah, so if you view your own profile you can see your own 'about me' tab but its not visible to others...