Phase 2, Maps 21-30 development thread

[Jaws In Space]

So for maps 21-30 of phase 2 my plan is to go for a mixed hellish approach to the episode. For example one map will start out as a normal tech base, but as you progress through it you will find yourself in more hellish areas. Then the following map will be purely hellish, then the next map will be another mix, then so on & so forth for the rest of the maps. I will handle each map one at a time until I have a completed set of maps.

 

Map 21 - As I have already stated I have thrown out the old map 21, I found the map to be quite poor in quality with lots of annoying setups & gameplay. In it's place is the former map 05 which was given to me by Blastfrog. I have already made quite a few changes to the map already, the map flows completely different now with pretty much no backtracking. The layout has been altered up a bit & I have made rather significant changes to the texturing of the map giving it a more hellish appearance in parts. Today I plan of redoing some of the thing placement so that it fits better as a late game map. I may have an update ready for testing by the end of today or tomorrow.

 

Then for a quick rundown on the rest of the maps, which I have only briefly gone through.

Map 22 - This map should remain mostly unchanged, though I may alter up the flow a bit & open up the map a bit more.

Map 23 - Another map that should remain mostly unchanged except for some texture changes.

Map 24 - This map was removed & replaced with map 10, it will be getting a hellish makeover in the near future.

Map 25 - This map isn't vanilla so that will be my first order of business for this map, from there I don't no. I haven't had a good look at this one yet.

Map 26 - There was no map here. I have tentatively placed map 17 here.

Map 27 - Removed, a replacement is in progress.

Map 28 - Map 28 is going to be a nightmare to try & make vanilla, not sure what to do with this one at the moment.

Map 29 - This map is a real mixed bag of good & bad ideas. I talked with Jayextee & he gave me map 20. My plan is to combine the better aspects of these two maps into one. This will be easier said than done because these open sandbox maps are a pain with vanilla limits, wish me luck.

Map 30 - Oh great now I'm responsible for an Icon of Sin map :P The plan here is to have a normal playing area that you have to get through before reaching the Icon arena, because who wants to get to map 30 & just face an Icon of Sin that's so boring.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Jaws In Space

[Catoptromancy]

MAP25 and 28 is also on my list to make vanilla. Will do it last though.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Catoptromancy

[Graf Zahl]

Sounds good overall.

But what's the problem wiith MAP24? It's surely a bit small and needs some workover but from playing Sinister Intention, it was quite decent, with the exception of the teleport maze. Can't you temporarily fill the MAP27 slot with it or has this been moved to another chapter? With some retexturing and monster replacement it may actually be more suitable for the first episode.

 

Interestingly, with MAP21 getting tossed out, MAP20+29 due for a major overhaul, MAP25 facing some hefty changes and MAP05 being repurposed, the episode I built some 14 years ago from the playable levels back then has now only two levels left which are still present in Freedoom in something close to their original form: MAP08 and MAP16...

 

[Jayextee]

8 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

But what's the problem wiith MAP24? It's surely a bit small and needs some workover but from playing Sinister Intention, it was quite decent, with the exception of the teleport maze.

 

 

Chainsaw just across from the beginning should be changed for a chaingun for pistol-starters; and it's a bit of a back-and-forth switch hunt (could do with a couple enemies teleport in to keep the player occupied). But seriously, I agree with anyone who badmouths that teleporter maze. I honestly don't know what I was thinking there.

 

I do, however, like the broken room. That's neat.

[Diabolución]

MAP23 has still many Boom scrolling surfaces incompatible with Vanilla / Chocolate. And at least one Boom teleporter as well.

 

Secret of the first SSG is currently an open door. It should be a blazing door, 117, on both sides.

 

This map disallow backtracking from / certain zones. Player should be capable of backtracking from exit zone (at least, a teleport should be either added or reconfigured to do so) and every item / monster should be reachable by backtracking. The first berserker pack and the first monsters on that ambush are, at least, the offending ones.

 

Not sure about these Wolfenstein SS soldiers, they seem somewhat lame for such non-secret map.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Litrivin : Minor typo

[Jayextee]

2 minutes ago, Litrivin said:

Not sure about these Wolfenstein SS soldiers, they seem somewhat lame for such non-secret map.

Was Shadow of the Wool Ball enemies agreed upon for SS replacement? If so, relegating them solely to MAP32 (that's my turf) sounds like a plan to me.

[Diabolución]

6 minutes ago, Jayextee said:

relegating them solely to MAP32 (that's my turf) sounds like a plan to me

This is the right option, in my opinion. Another option I like would be add the replacement assets related to Wolf3D just for compatibility with PWADs and make MAP31 / MAP32 normal yet special maps, like TNT and Plutonia did. The current MAP31 seems fine for such purporse.

[Catoptromancy]

42 minutes ago, Litrivin said:

The first berserker pack and the first monsters on that ambush are, at least, the offending ones.

Should just move berserk to a hidden location on lower area. Player can ride lift back up in case it was missed. As long as monsters can wake up, monsters can stay. They will be visible to player at a lower location.

 

Ill post a quick fix tonight with exit teleports and adjusted start item.

[Diabolución]

Yes, player can kill these monsters from lower area (in fact, I do so). The actual problem are the goods, shotgun shells as far I remember. Currently, player cannot get them unless player decides to fight one pain bringer and many serpentides with just berserker fist (suicidal due to the pain bringer and its powerful melee attack) or one pistol and 50 bullets. These goods should be moved to the lower area.

[Catoptromancy]

They are not counted towards item percentage. Area is not secret either. If player wants extra fight at start, they can. Either way they can always get 100%. Map has plenty of ammo around anyway.

 

MAP23: Configured a monster teleport at exit to also be lowered by player to allow player to backtrack. Moved berserk, secret is at end of bloody path. Inside start area ambush there is now a shotgun, little more ammo, and backpack. Player needs to fight for an early backpack. Not required for 100%. Also silenced all Eureka warnings, including boom stuff.

http://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/freedoom/catoptromancy/map23_c2.wad

Edited March 16, 2017 by Catoptromancy

[Voros]

10 hours ago, Jaws In Space said:

The plan here is to have a normal playing area that you have to get through before reaching the Icon arena, because who wants to get to map 30 & just face an Icon of Sin that's so boring.

Why not? After going through an adventure of 29 maps, killing who knows how many monsters, I think I deserve to face the Icon of Sin just like that.

 

But if you're making it into a normal like map, can the battles be at least quick? The old map30 was a normal playing map, and boy did that suck. 

[Jaws In Space]

Well I finished off map 21, check it out here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/597s31h6ja8pz13/FD21.wad?dl=1 Vanilla & difficulty settings tested.

I've also got someone working on a replacement for map 27, though I wouldn't expect the replacement map for at least a month. I might hold off on the rest of the maps for the remainder of March. I'm going to be pretty busy plus I really should be working on TNT Revilution right now, I just needed a nice break from that project & this was the perfect opportunity for that. I'll still be working to update map 22 sporadically over the coming weeks, & I should have an updated map sometime in late April along with a new map 27.

 

Quick Edit: @Voros yes I am quite aware of the old map 30 & I don't plan on it being long & puzzle oriented.

[Catoptromancy]

We even stripped the old MAP30 so it went right into the boss battle. Should make boss battle harder or trickier, does not even require a spawner. Someone posted they were working on one recently but only posted screenshots.

[Diabolución]

7 hours ago, Catoptromancy said:

Inside start area ambush there is now a shotgun, little more ammo, and backpack.

Well, this is another thing, a fairer combat for pistol starting... Anyway, the major improvement is due to the fact that player can get that berserker pack, and fully rehealth if needed, after fighting these monsters, not before fighting them without any option to backtrack and get it.

[Catoptromancy]

MAP21 looks awesome! Blue key building has weird ammo/projectile silent eating problem on its outside.

Also, I  think the texture1 lmp or something is broken for lava texs.

[Jaws In Space]

18 minutes ago, Catoptromancy said:

MAP21 looks awesome! Blue key building has weird ammo/projectile silent eating problem on its outside.

Also, I  think the texture1 lmp or something is broken for lava texs.

While editing the map I was getting a weird impassible sector glitch near vertex #655 by the automap secret. I deleted the vertex that was there & recreated it, that seemed to fix the problem. Though if you are getting errors there then it seems that problem or a related issue still exists. Doombuilder doesn't list any open sectors when I run the map analysis mode & I don't see any stray vertexes in sector #148 so I haven't got a clue what the problem may be.

 

Also I noticed the non animating lava textures, that's something that needs to be fixed with the texture pack.

 

 

[Diabolución]

I really dislike MAP21. The old one, of course.

 

As for the new one, there is some tutti frutti on the lava walls of northern room.

[Voros]

An FDA of your map. Let me say Im impressed you transformed map05 into this hellish monstrosity. Ive played map05 so many times that i know it like the back of my hand, so i was kinda prepared when i started the map. If you can transform a map like this, maybe have a look at map09? its meant have that hellish feeling slowly creeping in (progression wise). BTW, demo was recorded in Chocolate Doom and on skill 3.

 

For starters, add a rad suit near that opening in the beginning. As you can see, I got confused when i went down there with no rad suit.

Secondly, the last room feels to o cramped to fight those two arachnotrons (3?). i panicked here, as seen in the demo, and ran for the exit.

Thirdly, needs more Aquatex :P

 

ill post more thoughts later. Looking forward to the end result of E3.

 

vjisfd21.zip

[Diabolución]

@Voros, off-topic:

Spoiler

Is that the Chocolate Doom app bundled with Doom Touch? Does the yours save properly the settings? Mine cannot, I have to reconfigure its screensize (screenblocks) to the maximum size with status bar every time I start it.

 

[Catoptromancy]

12 minutes ago, Voros said:

Thirdly, needs more Aquatex :P

It should be added when needed, not added for the sake of adding it. Map looks fine.

[Voros]

10 minutes ago, Litrivin said:

@Voros, off-topic:

  Hide contents

Is that the Chocolate Doom app bundled with Doom Touch? Does the yours save properly the settings? Mine cannot, I have to reconfigure its screensize (screenblocks) to the maximum size with status bar every time I start it.

 

same here. learned to live with it until beloko cleans up the chocolate doom app in D-Touch. might look at the src someday and figure it out myself.

 

8 minutes ago, Catoptromancy said:

It should be added when needed, not added for the sake of adding it. Map looks fine.

hence ":P" emoticon. strictly personal and totally upto the Jaws. 

[Jaws In Space]

Instead of working on map 22, I've spent the weekend combining maps 20 & 29. Somehow this is vanilla compatible, but I still want to move a few things around a bit though because I'm not sure what would happen if you were to open any doors. After that I've got to adjust the line actions & sector tags because they don't make any sense right now due to the combining of maps, but that should only take a few minutes to fix. Retexturing work is done except for the north east & south east corners of the map.

[Gothic]

Since I offered myself to work on map30 I might as well post some WIP screenshots:
 

Spoiler

 

 

This map uses 1 custom flat (I should have asked if I can add a new floor first, sorry. If not, I'll just replace it for the next darkest flat)

 

 

It's a mix between hellish castles and machinery thrown in the middle, set on a void (or deep underground depending on what you guys think)

[RjY]

4 hours ago, Gothic said:

This map uses 1 custom flat (I should have asked if I can add a new floor first, sorry. If not, I'll just replace it for the next darkest flat)

Assume you mean ALLBLAKF here -- that and the corresponding texture would be useful things to have available to all mappers, I think.

[Jaws In Space]

Looking cool Gothic! I'm not sure what the policy on including new textures is, but I don't think anyone would be opposed to including a few new ones.

[Catoptromancy]

New textures/flats are ok but creators need to submit them.

[Voros]

Over 300 new custom textures and flats were added to Freedoom last year. Probably best not to add anymore, force mappers to use the textures currently in the IWADs.

 

Unless that one flat is used in other parts of other maps in Freedoom, I suppose it can be added.

[Catoptromancy]

A few is not bad. As long as they are actually used, and really add something to the map.

[Blastfrog]

4 hours ago, Voros said:

Over 300 new custom textures and flats were added to Freedoom last year.

Oh, you mean the one with lots of minor variants of the same textures and a narrowly limited thematic scope? Aquatex and its addition to the project are great, but get real, the number of new textures does not in any way indicate their level of variety. Honestly, we ought to cut a lot of the ultra-similar textures, as well as those that just don't look very good (let's be honest, aquatex is not consistently high quality).

 

There was that "cousin" texture set that added much needed variety and you had them in an early version of your community Aquatex pack. Why weren't these added to Freedoom and why did you remove them from later versions of your community pack?

 

I want the supplementary textures to cover a wide range of themes, not just one particular take on the industrial look. What we have now is largely a waste of space with limited use. Trim the fat and make room for more (but smaller) sets of textures.

 

4 hours ago, Voros said:

Probably best not to add anymore, force mappers to use the textures currently in the IWADs.

No thanks! Are you allergic to variety or something? I don't want to go overboard, perhaps 15 or so new textures at the absolute most. What's wrong with that?

[Voros]

The vanilla lump limit is what Im worried about. That, and bloating the IWADs.

 

Jmickle never gave explicit permission to use the SLDR pack for Freedoom (even if its just a extended version). That pack was also flawed, lacking the animated lump, putting the flats as textures lazily, some more metal variants, etc. Aquatex is pretty much a complete set compared to SLDR. 

 

If anything, it's the AQLITE textures that should probably be lowered to a smaller variety. There's over 75 of them IIRC.

 

Didn't you say that your cluster of maps will consist of Aquatex themed maps? So whats the problem?

 

Fraggle showed a very positive response of C1M1's Aquatex usage and even suggested that they use that map as an example of how future maps be like. I

 

15 textures, is only a few so why not? I assumed you wanted to go overboard given your ambitions :P

 

Of course Im not a maintainer of Freedoom, thats just my thoughts.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Voros