Feedback on MAP11

[selliott4]

Since I've been playing through freedoom2.wad I thought I'd share my feedback for MAP11. I couldn't find an existing "Phase 2" thread that included MAP11, so I created a new thread. If MAP11 is going to be discarded feel free to ignore my comments.

 

I think MAP11 is a nice map other than a few inaccessible secret areas and pickups. A brief description follows each image.

 

This stuck blue door at -1186, -2118 only opens to a height of 16 for reasons that were not obvious even after looking at it in Yadex. Doors open to the height of the lowest ceiling of the neighboring sectors minus four. Something hacked MAP11 so that the Doom engine thinks that distant sector 131, which has height 20, is a neighboring sector. Apparently this was done by adding line 857 to the lines of the sectors that makes up the door. Sadly there is no way to raise the ceiling of sector 131 due to another problem (more on that later). Also, I believe this could've been accomplished by not hacking the map - a small sector could have been added adjacent to the door with a ceiling height of 20. Do you guys know what tool did this? Also, is there a good tool that dumps all information, all IDs, etc, of a WAD so they can be examined? I had to debug the Doom engine to figure it this out, so it would be helpful in cases like this.

 

I don't think this door, which leads to a secret area at 1315, 215 will ever open. It has tag 666, which, for some doom levels, opens when the last of a certain type of monster is killed. However, unless I'm misunderstanding p_enemy.c for Doom2 666 only does anything on MAP07. This is related to the previous problem because you need to get into this room to cross line 2941 to raise sector 131 to unstick the door shown in the previous photo.

 

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I think it's impossible to get this BFG at -534, -170. None of the neighboring sectors or linedefs have helpful tags or flags. I even tried rocket jumping in PrBoom+. I never left the ground. Does that work in some other Doom engine?

 

This is a dead Commander Keen in a cage at 3547, -314 along with a dead chaingunner. The cage is lowered, but not opened, by a switch. I'm not sure what the point is. Also, Yadex lists Commander Keen as decoration, but they count as kills. Should the user have to shoot defenseless stationary decoration to get 100% kills? That seems odd to me. Likewise with the other Commander Keens on the map.

 

This apparent door at  2256, -736 would lead outside of the map if it were a door and if the impassible flag was not set. Should there be fake doors?

[Xindage]

kill all commander keens and the 666 tag door opens.

find the blue skullkey and you'll be able to open the blue door (i'm no kidding its a doom trick).

[selliott4]

1 hour ago, Xindage said:

kill all commander keens and the 666 tag door opens.

find the blue skullkey and you'll be able to open the blue door (i'm no kidding its a doom trick).

 

Indeed you are right about Commander Keens and that 666 door. That addresses my first two images, and maybe the second to last one about Commander Keen.

 

The way that stuck door works is a bit tricky - I think the map author wanted the user to think the blue skull key was needed to open the door, but actually crossing linedef 2941 is what unsticks the door at which point the ordinary blue key card works.

[Amarande]

On 3/18/2017 at 2:25 PM, selliott4 said:

 

Indeed you are right about Commander Keens and that 666 door. That addresses my first two images, and maybe the second to last one about Commander Keen.

 

The way that stuck door works is a bit tricky - I think the map author wanted the user to think the blue skull key was needed to open the door, but actually crossing linedef 2941 is what unsticks the door at which point the ordinary blue key card works.

I was the one who did the primary legwork of converting MAP11 to vanilla, and you're indeed right about the blue skull key.

 

The map originally was a Boom map, where the skull and card keys were indeed intended to be used separately, and in the Boom incarnation, the three doors now marked with skull key trim did simply require the skull keys. In order to retain the same "flow" to this secret, I took recourse to that isolated fob with the 20-high sectors, which raise to 128 when the player gets near the skull keys, simulating the idea that the skull keys are the ones that open the door. This design works as intended as long as the player can never reach any given skull key before they reach the corresponding coloured keycard, and I made sure that was the case. :)

 

IIRC, Eternal Doom MAP29 and MAP30 used similar trickery to create the effective idea of more than three keys; other examples of the "stuck door" phenomenon are Memento Mori II MAP07 (which actually used a crusher in the hidden area to have a randomising effect on the height to which the door would rise on any given attempt) and Japanese Community Project MAP20 (where the BFG requires not only a timed tripwire door but also something else be tripped later in the level in order to raise the hidden height-control sector before the door will actually open).

 

The technique used for such effects is called disjointed sectors, and is a mainstream Doom mapping technique (it's the same technique usually used to create outside monster holding pens - the pens are made to be the same sector # as somewhere the player is likely or certain to fire a weapon, so that the enemies within are awakened at that time, ready for later release into a teleporter, rather than needing to work a "sound tube" into the map structure). It's worth noting that, strictly speaking, the only time you absolutely need separate actual sectors for given regions is when they either need separate floor/ceiling height, sector type, and/or flat, or need to be able to be raised/lowered independently of one another; many WAD editors offer the ability to save memory and space (more important in vanilla days than now) by "packing" identically attributed sectors together into a single sector definition, and entire full scale levels have been made with as few as 10 or in an extreme megawad case even 2 sectors for the whole map.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Amarande : ... Packing sectors into a texture definition might not work so well.

[Catoptromancy]

5 minutes ago, Amarande said:

other examples of the "stuck door" phenomenon

Don't forget our new C1M5. Make a 180 degree turn directly at player start, then follow path on the right. Door opens just enough for player to see a powerup on other side. Door fully opens when player goes around and approaches from other side. I did mess up the sound though, the false sectors should be closer door makes sound.

[Xindage]

i'll try work more in map11 if you guys let me.

[Amarande]

Have at it Xindage ... I won't really have time to do any heavy duty editing for at least a few days due to family illness, so whatever you can add to the map is welcome. (I'm not sure if it's fixed yet, the first thing to do is fix that one switch in the SW near the invulnerability, which it appears should be lower floor 23 rather than open door 103, I had the right idea but got the wrong linetype and didn't get it in for 0.11)

 

Oh, and yeah, that BFG is superfluous, I just flat out forgot about it while vanillifying the map.

[selliott4]

 

18 hours ago, Amarande said:

Oh, and yeah, that BFG is superfluous, I just flat out forgot about it while vanillifying the map.

Thanks for confirming that about the BFG. That's totally understandable. I kept wondering if I was overlooking something. I'm guessing at this point my "fake door" comment (my last image) is not a concern now that I've noticed them in other Freedoom 2 maps. Perhaps the idea is to give the user the illusion that the map is bigger than it actually is, that they are not trapped in a tiny enclosed universe. But while playing I still get curious what's behind that door, and if I overlooked a switch.
 

On 3/23/2017 at 8:32 PM, Amarande said:

I was the one who did the primary legwork of converting MAP11 to vanilla, and you're indeed right about the blue skull key.

 

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The technique used for such effects is called disjointed sectors, and is a mainstream Doom mapping technique

Thanks for the explanation and the term "disjointed sectors" in particular. I kept searching for variations of "stuck door" and I could never find anything relevant. I ended up debugging PrBoom+ to see what was going on.

[Xindage]

actualy this rework in map11 was by 2 people, me and amanrade, because it probably few things goes unused or buged.